As for the first part, I feel like I explained it fairly well. Literally just do what you want. It’s the equivalent of saying “I’m nerdy, so I can only do nerdy things.”
As for the second part, yeah I mean I shouldn’t be gatekeeping but I phrased it that way to show that I do understand that reason.
With that being said, I posted that with the hope of learning, and while your comment feels a little aggressive, I appreciate that you stayed civil. Can you explain why my understanding of gender does not work?
Can you explain why my understanding of gender does not work?
Because it’s mostly coming from a place that you simply can’t understand. Gender isn’t just a social construct. Gender roles are, but telling trans people that “hey gender doesn’t matter, just do what you want” is extremely patronizing coming from someone who feels comfortable in their gender.
And even if gender was a social construct, we live in a society. And part of being a particular gender is how people in society treat you. Seeing cis women treated one way, and then being treated another can be dysphoric as fuck, even when the difference is sexist as fuck and obviously just a social differentiation. In the end, you’re right, most of the differences in how the different genders are created are due to society, but that doesn’t make them any less part of living as a particular gender.
In my eyes, swapping genders to get treated differently seems to be a hopeless endeavour, and it reinforces the idea of gender roles. I understand that society doesn’t change because you want it to, but it would also help to fight sexism if we ignored the concept of gender roles.
If someone makes fun of you for being masculine while wearing a dress, publicly shame them and society will eventually realize that that doesn’t work. But by transitioning to be treated like a woman, you are letting them win because you are simply accepting that “this is the way women are treated”
I’ve heard that it’s not something I can understand because I’m comfortable in my gender, but I don’t think that’s true. I’m extremely open minded and very capable of putting myself in others shoes, which is why I have the views I have. Also, I don’t feel like I have a gender because I simply don’t engage with society in a way that would allow for gender, hence why I believe everyone should be agender. I just want to take the shortest path to actually fixing the problem instead of prolonging it. If someone could accurately explain what it feels like “to be a man/woman” without bringing gender roles into it, I feel like I would be able to understand that. But every time I ask, I get answers to how they choose to engage with society instead of what that feeling actually feels like.
I did hear someone in this thread say that they enjoy expressing their gender, and unless they’re referring to gender roles that they engage in, I currently don’t understand how that is possible.
That was a bit of a rant but I wanted to add in as much context as possible, thank you for your comment
Edit: I phrased part of that poorly, so here’s a correction: in order to do away with sexism and treating genders differently, we as a society and as a movement should choose not to engage with bigots who perpetuate gender roles, such as not working for companies that have a wage gap, and not dating people who won’t let you wear the clothes you want. In this way, we will eventually force people to accept that the genders are equal in all ways, thereby eliminating them as a necessary construct.
Also, I don’t feel like I have a gender because I simply don’t engage with society in a way that would allow for gender,
No, it’s because you’re comfortable with your gender. Thinking you’re too enlightened to be concerned with gender is again, patronizing as fuck, implying that trans people just care too much about things that don’t matter.
If someone could accurately explain what it feels like “to be a man/woman” without bringing gender roles into it, I feel like I would be able to understand that.
You’re actively trying to not understand it. Being a man/woman is simply a matter of being treated like you would any other man or woman. And I know you’re going to respond with “I don’t treat people differently”. Even if that were the case, which there’s no way that’s true. Even if you were 100% bisexual, attracted to both genders identically, and really could ignore 10s of thousands of years of cultural history, that’s not what most people want. Even if YOU could, most people prefer there to be gendered differences. There are just some inherent biological differences. No one is saying people’s roles should be defined by their gender, or for limiting people of any gender to express themselves any way they see fit. But if you’re saying that football or hockey or boxing aren’t inherently masculine, then I don’t know what to tell you.
we as a society and as a movement should choose not to engage with bigots who perpetuate gender roles, such as not working for companies that have a wage gap, and not dating people who won’t let you wear the clothes you want. In this way, we will eventually force people to accept that the genders are equal in all ways, thereby eliminating them as a necessary construct.
Those are forced gender biases, not necessarily roles. Unless you’re saying that it’s possible for everyone to be 100% bisexual and have no preference whatsoever for gender in any way, then your whole argument is missing the entire point, just so you can proclaim you “don’t see gender”. It’s similar to how racists always say they “don’t see race”.
Many trans people (me included) strongly identify with a gender.
If we didn’t strongly identify with a gender, why on earth would we put ourselves through this lengthy, expensive, socially punishing, and often painful transition process? The joy of living as yourself (which, for many of us, includes gender expression) makes it worthwhile.
Gender roles, like “men are doctors, women are nurses?” Very often, those are fucking bullshit.
Wanting to be recognized as a man/woman, and valuing that, does not imply being on board with sexism.
Shouldn’t we be making the distinction between TransSex and TransGender in that case then?
I’ve been told very conflicting opinions on the whole topic; from genitals don’t matter AT ALL in terms of being identified as a man/woman, to genitals being the defining thing that needs changing for a person to feel whole.
I’m the type of person who needs to understand things logically, and a lot of the time upon trying to understand - I’m given completely different goalposts by completely different people. How do I understand all the different opinions on the topic, in a way that allows me to logically follow a thought process in order to distinguish these different ways of thinking?
All of this resists easy categories because we are talking about people and societies (which are both incredibly complicated).
The position that “genitals are the only thing that matters in all cases” is very much not a position I agree with. I had such bad bottom dysphoria that I got the surgery. But I have friends who are gender conforming, sexy women that don’t experience bottom dysphoria and have no plans for surgery. They are no less trans or less women because of it.
In the community, the term “non-op” is often used to refer to people who can get where they want to be without surgery (wish it had been me, would have been a lot less work), and “Pre-op” / “post-op” for people who do want it, depending on status.
You may very well have talked to people who said “my surgery was everything, I needed it so much and that was what I needed to feel happy”. That’s a completely legit way to feel, I don’t want to downplay that. For me personally, hormones were almost as important; for a lot of people hormones are The Thing, for others it’s attire and presentation and social interaction.
I can’t give you simple answers. There aren’t any.
There’s simply no logical answer that will apply to everyone. But no, transSex isn’t a thing. You can’t change your sex, because that’s biological. Your gender is simply your presentation. It doesn’t mean you necessarily have to fit into any specific box. It can definitely be confusing. But no one is talking about gender roles. It’s about presentation. There is generally a feminine way to present and a masculine way to present. And a boy presenting feminine is just fundamentally different from a trans-fem person in ways that are difficult to classify. Because gender is a spectrum
Why does nobody agree on this crap?! According to others, there IS a distinction between transgender and transsex. But you’re telling me there isn’t…
I swear to god I’m trying to understand… but as soon as I think I am starting to, someone bitches at me for being ignorant and apparently not understanding…
According to others, there IS a distinction between transgender and transsex. But you’re telling me there isn’t…
People are free to describe themselves how they want.
I swear to god I’m trying to understand…
That’s great, but understanding and trying to logically define and categorize are different things. What does it really matter to you whether someone prefers one term or another?
someone bitches at me for being ignorant and apparently not understanding…
I think your problem might be what I posted. Understanding doesn’t necessarily mean categorizing. If someone told you they were raped, would you need to ask them if there was penile and vaginal penetration? And if there wasn’t, would you try to tell them that they weren’t actually raped? Or what about if someone is blind, if they can see light and shadows but aren’t 100% blind, would you try to tell them they weren’t?
It’s kind of the same idea here. There’s no neat categorizations. Understanding is more like empathizing. And I guarantee no one will bitch if you do your best to just treat someone how they appear to present, and then adjust if they tell you you’re wrong. If you see someone wearing a dress with long hair, it’s a very good bet you can refer to them as “she”. It doesn’t mean you should catcall them, or ask them why they aren’t at home in the kitchen, or assume any sexist gender roles. But you DO treat women different from men in society, even if it’s ONLY by the pronouns you use. Simply do the same for someone who is attempting to present as feminine unless you’re told otherwise. You might be wrong, but only the absolute biggest assholes in the world would be offended at your attempt.
But…it is. Language isn’t precise, certainly, but it’s not that “fuzzy” either. And it certainly exists to define things in order to better understand them. You can’t just hand-wave away with an “it’s complicated”. Yes, some of the most complex topics in the world are complicated, but we’ve still managed to define them in clean, understandable ways.
I think this is the major hurdle for acceptance. If something can be understood, then it can be described. If it can be described, it can be taught. If it can be taught, it can be accepted. Approaching someone who would be willing to accept - without being able to give a real answer - relies on them having faith - much like religion - instead of understanding.
Sure, maybe I was being too strong there by saying it’s not a thing. People do use it. But I would be cautious of using it yourself unless someone tells you specifically that they want to be referred that way.
Approaching someone who would be willing to accept - without being able to give a real answer - relies on them having faith
It really doesn’t. It relies on them not being an asshole. And not making generalizations. The intricacies don’t matter on a day to day level of interacting with people who you’re not intimately familiar with. Treat them as you would any other person of the gender that they’re presenting as. That’s literally all there is to it. Anything more is personal preference to the individual, just like it would be for any non trans person. Do you need to understand the intricacies of tomboy vs butch to interact with a woman wearing pants? No? Then you don’t need the same level of detail for trans people either.
By simply mocking the person for saying gender roles are stupid, the naive conclusion is that you are for gender roles.
Maybe the VERY naive conclusion by someone who isn’t interested in any nuance at all. Because I didn’t quote anything related to gender roles. I mocked him for his comment suggesting that gender itself is a construct. Which is patronizing as fuck by someone who feels comfortable in their gender
So this might be because I personally have not experienced qualms with my gender, but if someone takes away societal gender norms, and takes away body dysmorphia, what is “left” to define gender as?
I see that you mentioned “how society treats you” is another aspect, but is that not just another cultural gendered norm?
I know I’ve expanded gender roles to gender norms - I believe the latter is what OP was asking about since he claimed gender is a societal construct.
And like I’ve said in other parts of this thread - there’s no need to answer if you’re not feeling it. You’re just chilling online, this isn’t a challenge to your existence or anything else meant to make you feel uncomfortable. Just someone who attended diversity and sexuality courses almost a decade ago who doesn’t know much these days.
but if someone takes away societal gender norms, and takes away body dysmorphia, what is “left” to define gender as?
I mean, this is becoming so hypothetical. You assume that taking away gender norms is possible or even desired. I don’t know the latest research, but as far as I understand it’s not certain that there’s 0 biological component to gender expression. Like another poster mentioned, people are tied to their gender. They like how they express it.
And furthermore, “removing body [dysphoria]” is hand waving away a LOT. That’s the primary reason people transition. But it’s tied into how society views gender, and that view is at least informed by biology. So extracting that isn’t a useful exercise imo. It’s possible that in a different society that doesn’t differentiate between gender, then trans people wouldn’t feel a need to transition. But yeah I don’t know how that would be a helpful thing to think about.
this isn’t a challenge to your existence or anything else meant to make you feel uncomfortable
Full disclosure, I have decided not to transition. And I’m hesitant to call myself trans only because I think that label comes with a lot of implications for how the world treats you, and I would feel that I’m co-opting the term. So I’m basically coming from the place of someone with dysphoria.
Because to be honest, I actually don’t relate much with the trans people like the post in the OP who liked stereotypically girly things as a kid. But now I wonder if that was because I felt I couldn’t, or I would be judged, or just because I happen to not like those things. I don’t really know where I’m going with this. But I guess my point is, you’re asking for a logical explanation and concrete rules. And that’s just not possible to give because many trans people don’t even know themselves what “being a woman” or “being a man” actually means. Just that something is wrong. And there’s not a simple fix. It’s not just a matter of clothes, because whenever I see myself in women’s clothes it actually makes my dsyphoria worse. Because all you see in the mirror is a man in a dress, not a woman ( a common feeling https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/vz3qlf/overcoming_man_on_a_dress_feeling/ ). And it’s not about your interests, because as you correctly point out, girls are totally free to like “boy” things and vice versa, and that doesn’t and shouldn’t necessarily imply they’re trans.
Oh please explain this more. We need your cis gender expertise to explain how gender doesn’t matter
Wtf. First, why else would someone transition? And even so, who are you to gatekeep what reasons are legit?
As for the first part, I feel like I explained it fairly well. Literally just do what you want. It’s the equivalent of saying “I’m nerdy, so I can only do nerdy things.”
As for the second part, yeah I mean I shouldn’t be gatekeeping but I phrased it that way to show that I do understand that reason.
With that being said, I posted that with the hope of learning, and while your comment feels a little aggressive, I appreciate that you stayed civil. Can you explain why my understanding of gender does not work?
Because it’s mostly coming from a place that you simply can’t understand. Gender isn’t just a social construct. Gender roles are, but telling trans people that “hey gender doesn’t matter, just do what you want” is extremely patronizing coming from someone who feels comfortable in their gender.
And even if gender was a social construct, we live in a society. And part of being a particular gender is how people in society treat you. Seeing cis women treated one way, and then being treated another can be dysphoric as fuck, even when the difference is sexist as fuck and obviously just a social differentiation. In the end, you’re right, most of the differences in how the different genders are created are due to society, but that doesn’t make them any less part of living as a particular gender.
In my eyes, swapping genders to get treated differently seems to be a hopeless endeavour, and it reinforces the idea of gender roles. I understand that society doesn’t change because you want it to, but it would also help to fight sexism if we ignored the concept of gender roles.
If someone makes fun of you for being masculine while wearing a dress, publicly shame them and society will eventually realize that that doesn’t work. But by transitioning to be treated like a woman, you are letting them win because you are simply accepting that “this is the way women are treated”
I’ve heard that it’s not something I can understand because I’m comfortable in my gender, but I don’t think that’s true. I’m extremely open minded and very capable of putting myself in others shoes, which is why I have the views I have. Also, I don’t feel like I have a gender because I simply don’t engage with society in a way that would allow for gender, hence why I believe everyone should be agender. I just want to take the shortest path to actually fixing the problem instead of prolonging it. If someone could accurately explain what it feels like “to be a man/woman” without bringing gender roles into it, I feel like I would be able to understand that. But every time I ask, I get answers to how they choose to engage with society instead of what that feeling actually feels like.
I did hear someone in this thread say that they enjoy expressing their gender, and unless they’re referring to gender roles that they engage in, I currently don’t understand how that is possible.
That was a bit of a rant but I wanted to add in as much context as possible, thank you for your comment
Edit: I phrased part of that poorly, so here’s a correction: in order to do away with sexism and treating genders differently, we as a society and as a movement should choose not to engage with bigots who perpetuate gender roles, such as not working for companies that have a wage gap, and not dating people who won’t let you wear the clothes you want. In this way, we will eventually force people to accept that the genders are equal in all ways, thereby eliminating them as a necessary construct.
No, it’s because you’re comfortable with your gender. Thinking you’re too enlightened to be concerned with gender is again, patronizing as fuck, implying that trans people just care too much about things that don’t matter.
You’re actively trying to not understand it. Being a man/woman is simply a matter of being treated like you would any other man or woman. And I know you’re going to respond with “I don’t treat people differently”. Even if that were the case, which there’s no way that’s true. Even if you were 100% bisexual, attracted to both genders identically, and really could ignore 10s of thousands of years of cultural history, that’s not what most people want. Even if YOU could, most people prefer there to be gendered differences. There are just some inherent biological differences. No one is saying people’s roles should be defined by their gender, or for limiting people of any gender to express themselves any way they see fit. But if you’re saying that football or hockey or boxing aren’t inherently masculine, then I don’t know what to tell you.
Those are forced gender biases, not necessarily roles. Unless you’re saying that it’s possible for everyone to be 100% bisexual and have no preference whatsoever for gender in any way, then your whole argument is missing the entire point, just so you can proclaim you “don’t see gender”. It’s similar to how racists always say they “don’t see race”.
By simply mocking the person for saying gender roles are stupid, the naive conclusion is that you are for gender roles.
If there’s nuance there, it’d be great for you to tease that out, otherwise it just looks like you’re for gender roles, or gatekeeping the topic.
Many trans people (me included) strongly identify with a gender.
If we didn’t strongly identify with a gender, why on earth would we put ourselves through this lengthy, expensive, socially punishing, and often painful transition process? The joy of living as yourself (which, for many of us, includes gender expression) makes it worthwhile.
Gender roles, like “men are doctors, women are nurses?” Very often, those are fucking bullshit.
Wanting to be recognized as a man/woman, and valuing that, does not imply being on board with sexism.
Shouldn’t we be making the distinction between TransSex and TransGender in that case then?
I’ve been told very conflicting opinions on the whole topic; from genitals don’t matter AT ALL in terms of being identified as a man/woman, to genitals being the defining thing that needs changing for a person to feel whole.
I’m the type of person who needs to understand things logically, and a lot of the time upon trying to understand - I’m given completely different goalposts by completely different people. How do I understand all the different opinions on the topic, in a way that allows me to logically follow a thought process in order to distinguish these different ways of thinking?
All of this resists easy categories because we are talking about people and societies (which are both incredibly complicated).
The position that “genitals are the only thing that matters in all cases” is very much not a position I agree with. I had such bad bottom dysphoria that I got the surgery. But I have friends who are gender conforming, sexy women that don’t experience bottom dysphoria and have no plans for surgery. They are no less trans or less women because of it.
In the community, the term “non-op” is often used to refer to people who can get where they want to be without surgery (wish it had been me, would have been a lot less work), and “Pre-op” / “post-op” for people who do want it, depending on status.
You may very well have talked to people who said “my surgery was everything, I needed it so much and that was what I needed to feel happy”. That’s a completely legit way to feel, I don’t want to downplay that. For me personally, hormones were almost as important; for a lot of people hormones are The Thing, for others it’s attire and presentation and social interaction.
I can’t give you simple answers. There aren’t any.
There’s simply no logical answer that will apply to everyone. But no, transSex isn’t a thing. You can’t change your sex, because that’s biological. Your gender is simply your presentation. It doesn’t mean you necessarily have to fit into any specific box. It can definitely be confusing. But no one is talking about gender roles. It’s about presentation. There is generally a feminine way to present and a masculine way to present. And a boy presenting feminine is just fundamentally different from a trans-fem person in ways that are difficult to classify. Because gender is a spectrum
https://old.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/yzg4b9/transgender_vs_transsexual/iwztr2a/ – This person says transsex is a thing and it’s distinct from transgender. :[
Why does nobody agree on this crap?! According to others, there IS a distinction between transgender and transsex. But you’re telling me there isn’t…
I swear to god I’m trying to understand… but as soon as I think I am starting to, someone bitches at me for being ignorant and apparently not understanding…
Because language isn’t precise.
People are free to describe themselves how they want.
That’s great, but understanding and trying to logically define and categorize are different things. What does it really matter to you whether someone prefers one term or another?
I think your problem might be what I posted. Understanding doesn’t necessarily mean categorizing. If someone told you they were raped, would you need to ask them if there was penile and vaginal penetration? And if there wasn’t, would you try to tell them that they weren’t actually raped? Or what about if someone is blind, if they can see light and shadows but aren’t 100% blind, would you try to tell them they weren’t?
It’s kind of the same idea here. There’s no neat categorizations. Understanding is more like empathizing. And I guarantee no one will bitch if you do your best to just treat someone how they appear to present, and then adjust if they tell you you’re wrong. If you see someone wearing a dress with long hair, it’s a very good bet you can refer to them as “she”. It doesn’t mean you should catcall them, or ask them why they aren’t at home in the kitchen, or assume any sexist gender roles. But you DO treat women different from men in society, even if it’s ONLY by the pronouns you use. Simply do the same for someone who is attempting to present as feminine unless you’re told otherwise. You might be wrong, but only the absolute biggest assholes in the world would be offended at your attempt.
But whether that person has decided to have surgery doesn’t really matter. The same way it wouldn’t matter if a cis woman had a this condition https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/vaginal-agenesis/symptoms-causes/syc-20355737 and you tried to lawyer her saying she wasn’t a woman.
You said:
But…it is. Language isn’t precise, certainly, but it’s not that “fuzzy” either. And it certainly exists to define things in order to better understand them. You can’t just hand-wave away with an “it’s complicated”. Yes, some of the most complex topics in the world are complicated, but we’ve still managed to define them in clean, understandable ways.
I think this is the major hurdle for acceptance. If something can be understood, then it can be described. If it can be described, it can be taught. If it can be taught, it can be accepted. Approaching someone who would be willing to accept - without being able to give a real answer - relies on them having faith - much like religion - instead of understanding.
Sure, maybe I was being too strong there by saying it’s not a thing. People do use it. But I would be cautious of using it yourself unless someone tells you specifically that they want to be referred that way.
It really doesn’t. It relies on them not being an asshole. And not making generalizations. The intricacies don’t matter on a day to day level of interacting with people who you’re not intimately familiar with. Treat them as you would any other person of the gender that they’re presenting as. That’s literally all there is to it. Anything more is personal preference to the individual, just like it would be for any non trans person. Do you need to understand the intricacies of tomboy vs butch to interact with a woman wearing pants? No? Then you don’t need the same level of detail for trans people either.
Maybe the VERY naive conclusion by someone who isn’t interested in any nuance at all. Because I didn’t quote anything related to gender roles. I mocked him for his comment suggesting that gender itself is a construct. Which is patronizing as fuck by someone who feels comfortable in their gender
So this might be because I personally have not experienced qualms with my gender, but if someone takes away societal gender norms, and takes away body dysmorphia, what is “left” to define gender as?
I see that you mentioned “how society treats you” is another aspect, but is that not just another cultural gendered norm?
I know I’ve expanded gender roles to gender norms - I believe the latter is what OP was asking about since he claimed gender is a societal construct.
And like I’ve said in other parts of this thread - there’s no need to answer if you’re not feeling it. You’re just chilling online, this isn’t a challenge to your existence or anything else meant to make you feel uncomfortable. Just someone who attended diversity and sexuality courses almost a decade ago who doesn’t know much these days.
I mean, this is becoming so hypothetical. You assume that taking away gender norms is possible or even desired. I don’t know the latest research, but as far as I understand it’s not certain that there’s 0 biological component to gender expression. Like another poster mentioned, people are tied to their gender. They like how they express it.
And furthermore, “removing body [dysphoria]” is hand waving away a LOT. That’s the primary reason people transition. But it’s tied into how society views gender, and that view is at least informed by biology. So extracting that isn’t a useful exercise imo. It’s possible that in a different society that doesn’t differentiate between gender, then trans people wouldn’t feel a need to transition. But yeah I don’t know how that would be a helpful thing to think about.
Full disclosure, I have decided not to transition. And I’m hesitant to call myself trans only because I think that label comes with a lot of implications for how the world treats you, and I would feel that I’m co-opting the term. So I’m basically coming from the place of someone with dysphoria.
Because to be honest, I actually don’t relate much with the trans people like the post in the OP who liked stereotypically girly things as a kid. But now I wonder if that was because I felt I couldn’t, or I would be judged, or just because I happen to not like those things. I don’t really know where I’m going with this. But I guess my point is, you’re asking for a logical explanation and concrete rules. And that’s just not possible to give because many trans people don’t even know themselves what “being a woman” or “being a man” actually means. Just that something is wrong. And there’s not a simple fix. It’s not just a matter of clothes, because whenever I see myself in women’s clothes it actually makes my dsyphoria worse. Because all you see in the mirror is a man in a dress, not a woman ( a common feeling https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/vz3qlf/overcoming_man_on_a_dress_feeling/ ). And it’s not about your interests, because as you correctly point out, girls are totally free to like “boy” things and vice versa, and that doesn’t and shouldn’t necessarily imply they’re trans.