I do think hating socialist states with the same or worse ferocity that capitalist states get is a serious misjudgement. Administration is necessary for large scale production and distribution, whether you count that as a state or not. Communism as a stateless, classless, moneyless society would have no class, but would still have administration.
Some cases need binding control, especially related to industrial environments and hazardous working conditions. We develop methods of organizing and structuring ourselves often because it’s useful, not because it benefits the person with a broader scope of responsibility, kinda like strategians vs tacticians. Those in these positions can be elected, chosen based on merit, etc, and will serve for greater prosperity than had these positions been avoided out of a moral objection to hierarchy.
ML’s explicitly are anti-state and believe it to be in charge of managing irreconcilable class differences so it must be destroyed and replaced with something else. This is written explicitly in Lenin’s State and Revolution.
Almost, MLs understand that the state is necessary until class is abolished, so what replaces the bourgeois state is a proletarian state that withers with respect to collectivization of production and distribution. Revolution for MLs doesn’t get rid of the state overnight, but creates a new state that cannot but wither.
Non-states or weak states very quickly run into collective action problems which are made significantly worse at large scales. Generally, they work when the material conditions allow for it, for example, the Zapatistas are in rural mountains that nobody really cares that much about. If they happened to be sitting on top of a bunch of oil, then the situation would be quite different.
States are the most effective means of solving collective action problems that currently exist. Even the fundamental goal of keeping people safe from other states cannot be achieved in most cases without some degree of centralization. “I can’t go up and defend the pass, I have to stay here and protect my farm.” That’s what decentralization gets you, and the result is that the enemy, who is solving such collective action problems through the mechanism of a state, is (generally) able to subdue each individual with overwhelming force. But it extends beyond defense, “I can’t help build that bridge so we can all trade with our neighbors, I have to tend to my crops or I’ll starve.” While these problems can be solved on a very small scale, on a local level where people know and trust each other, it generally cannot be scaled up to similar situations beyond that.
Yeah and white people have also done that while having teeth so clearly that means we need to knock out all our teeth.
The state has been used to persecute and exploit people because it is an effective means of wielding power, so virtually everyone everywhere uses it, if they can. There’s just this silly martyr complex where people would rather lose and get themselves killed in practice, so that they can remain pure in their ideals. I suppose it’s useful for winning arguments. Not so much at actually achieving anything.
Careful, you mention hating the state get everyone riled up. Conservatives, Liberals, Communists, all of them.
Especially on an ml instance. I’m waiting for some bozo to post Engels’ “on authority” again.
I do think hating socialist states with the same or worse ferocity that capitalist states get is a serious misjudgement. Administration is necessary for large scale production and distribution, whether you count that as a state or not. Communism as a stateless, classless, moneyless society would have no class, but would still have administration.
I’ve tried to explain to you for soo many times that anarchists argue that administration does not equal a command-and-control authority.
Some cases need binding control, especially related to industrial environments and hazardous working conditions. We develop methods of organizing and structuring ourselves often because it’s useful, not because it benefits the person with a broader scope of responsibility, kinda like strategians vs tacticians. Those in these positions can be elected, chosen based on merit, etc, and will serve for greater prosperity than had these positions been avoided out of a moral objection to hierarchy.
ML’s explicitly are anti-state and believe it to be in charge of managing irreconcilable class differences so it must be destroyed and replaced with something else. This is written explicitly in Lenin’s State and Revolution.
Almost, MLs understand that the state is necessary until class is abolished, so what replaces the bourgeois state is a proletarian state that withers with respect to collectivization of production and distribution. Revolution for MLs doesn’t get rid of the state overnight, but creates a new state that cannot but wither.
Tell that to this MoFo.
I’ve lost count of how many times MLers were trying to school me of how anarchism’s end-goal is delusional.
What an insufferable human. Fuck the police and fuck the state.
that’s why they’re on crazypeople.online. lol
Yeah, I don’t identify as a ML I just read books lol. Most people don’t
Really, just about anybody that looks to historical examples to inform their perspective.
There are examples of non states working, but it is unclear if it would be possible to maintain large societies.
Non-states or weak states very quickly run into collective action problems which are made significantly worse at large scales. Generally, they work when the material conditions allow for it, for example, the Zapatistas are in rural mountains that nobody really cares that much about. If they happened to be sitting on top of a bunch of oil, then the situation would be quite different.
States are the most effective means of solving collective action problems that currently exist. Even the fundamental goal of keeping people safe from other states cannot be achieved in most cases without some degree of centralization. “I can’t go up and defend the pass, I have to stay here and protect my farm.” That’s what decentralization gets you, and the result is that the enemy, who is solving such collective action problems through the mechanism of a state, is (generally) able to subdue each individual with overwhelming force. But it extends beyond defense, “I can’t help build that bridge so we can all trade with our neighbors, I have to tend to my crops or I’ll starve.” While these problems can be solved on a very small scale, on a local level where people know and trust each other, it generally cannot be scaled up to similar situations beyond that.
Very white take, congratulations.
Only white people have states, yes.
Very disingenuous of you to not recognize white people wielding the state have persecuted indigenous people all over the world.
Yeah and white people have also done that while having teeth so clearly that means we need to knock out all our teeth.
The state has been used to persecute and exploit people because it is an effective means of wielding power, so virtually everyone everywhere uses it, if they can. There’s just this silly martyr complex where people would rather lose and get themselves killed in practice, so that they can remain pure in their ideals. I suppose it’s useful for winning arguments. Not so much at actually achieving anything.
Show me a state that’s never persecuted people.
That’s an impossible standard, and doesn’t really have anything to do with anything. I’m not interested in impractical moral perfectionism.
Damn I was really hoping you’d prove me wrong.