• Melllvar@startrek.website
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    1 year ago

    Part of my job is to review security footage for reported incidents.

    If there is a long-lasting visual cue that the event has or has not happened yet (e.g. a window is either broken or not), then a binary search is very useful.

    If the event lasts only a moment and leaves no visual cue (e.g. an assault), then binary search is practically useless.

    • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      If the event lasts only a moment and leaves no visual cue (e.g. an assault), then binary search is practically useless.

      But you will see the event happen though.

      It’s a matter of if you can identify who the perpetrator is or not, but at least that due diligence should be done by police, looking at the person doing the crime and see if they can be identified.

      • null@slrpnk.net
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        1 year ago

        But you will see the event happen though.

        Not with a binary search.

        Edit: just collapse this thread and move on. Cosmic Cleric is an obvious troll.

        • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Edit: just collapse this thread and move on. Cosmic Cleric is an obvious troll.

          Screw you, and your gatekeeping censoring.

          I replied, saying the comment is not correct, and I gave reasons why, which are valid reasons.

          • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            Your reasons for why they were incorrect about a binary search being useless in situations that don’t leave visual cues is that you can simply look for the visual cues lmao, that’s not valid at all

            • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Your reasons for why they were incorrect about a binary search being useless in situations that don’t leave visual cues is that you can simply look for the visual cues lmao, that’s not valid at all

              I never said they work 100% of the time. I said they work most of the time, which is a true statement.

              An event happens in time, that event has a duration, if you can detect that duration then a binary search works perfectly fine.

              And even after the duration most times events change the environment around them, which stay statically changed, and are detectable.

              So much work to try to Kill the Messenger. Maybe organizations don’t want people to think they work so people won’t demand that they be used, causing more work for them.

              • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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                1 year ago

                I never said they work 100% of the time. I said they work most of the time, which is a true statement.

                That’s also what the comment you claim to disagree with said, so why are you even arguing?

                An event happens in time, that event has a duration, if you can detect that duration then a binary search works perfectly fine.

                And even after the duration most times events change the environment around them, which stay statically changed, and are detectable.

                Right. And when that happens, it’s covered by the second paragraph of the parent comment:

                If there is a long-lasting visual cue that the event has or has not happened yet (e.g. a window is either broken or not), then a binary search is very useful.

                Situations where binary searches aren’t useful are covered in the third paragraph of the comment:

                If the event lasts only a moment and leaves no visual cue (e.g. an assault), then binary search is practically useless.

                You’ve claimed that you disagree with this, but have yet to explain why you disagree beyond saying that there would be visual cues. Except that they’ve already said that binary searches work in situations that leave visual cues. You haven’t explained how a binary search can work in situations that leave no visual cues except by claiming they they would, except if they do, then the person you claim to disagree with has already said that binary searches are useful.

                • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  You’ve claimed that you disagree with this, but have yet to explain why you disagree beyond saying that there would be visual cues.

                  I have explained it, multiple times. I disagree that there would not be visual clues most of the time. I can’t prove a negative I don’t belleve in, to me its a false scenario that doesn’t (mostly) happen. In fact, the whole point of my very first comment was to rebut implicitly the ‘no visual clues’ clause.

                  Each comment is not atomic, on its own, its part of an overall conversation being had. To try and do so otherwise is just to play “gotcha” and is intellectually dishonest.

                  • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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                    1 year ago

                    They never said “most of the time.” They only brought up two categories of events: those that leave lasting visual cues, and those that don’t.

        • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          But you will see the event happen though.

          Not with a binary search.

          Yes you will.

          A binary search is just what it says, it’s just for searching only.

          When you find that moment in time where the bike was there one moment, and then the next moment the bike’s not there, then you view at regular or even slow-mo at those few seconds of the bike in the middle of disappearing, and see the perpetrator, and hopefully can identify them.

          • Azzu@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            You didn’t get what was talked about here. Re-read the topmost parent comment.

            How do you binary search for two people arriving, one punches the other, they both leave?

            • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              How do you binary search for two people arriving, one punches the other, they both leave?

              In the same way the OP talks about it …

              You don’t watch the whole thing, he said. You use a binary search. You fast forward to halfway, see if the bike is there and, if it is, zoom to three quarters of the way through. But if it wasn’t there at the halfway mark, you rewind to a quarter of the way though. Its very quick. In fact, he had pointed out, if the CCTV footage stretched back to the dawn of humanity it would probably have taken an hour to find the moment of theft.

              Instead of a bike, you look for the aftereffects of a fight happening (chairs knocked down, tables turned over, etc.). You can even look at how many people congregate around the location of the fight before and after the video as a ‘marker’ to the point of time the fight was happening/just finished.

              Edit: One thing we didn’t even mention, AI can also be used these days to notice subtle changes in the video. If a video is a static image of an alley, then two people walk in the alley and fight, even though they leave no traces behind, that moment of the fight is caught on the video with activity/movement. Motion sensor movement, basically.

                • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  You are seriously confused.

                  And you are seriously trying to kill the messenger.

                  OP specifically said that you’re fucked if there is no visual cue.

                  And I’m saying there’s ALWAYS a visual clue/cue, always. Either the bike is there one minute and gone another, or a fight breaks out and trashes the place from the fight. In the vast amount of cases, there’s always a visual difference.

                  And in this case we’re talking specifically about a bike, going missing.

                  • nexguy@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    Absolutely not true. Guy walks bye and shoots someone well offscreen. Momentary action with no visual cue before or after. Why are you arguing this useless point?

                  • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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                    1 year ago

                    Ok but the text that you replied to, that you quoted, was “If the event lasts only a moment and leaves no visual cue (e.g. an assault), then binary search is practically useless.” Emphasis mine. If you’d started out saying “there’s ALWAYS a visual cue,” then you likely wouldn’t be getting dragged, but you started out arguing from this position without clarifying it, which makes it seem like you didn’t know what you were talking about. You can’t say that you can simply look for visual cues when the other person specified that there were none.

              • Kialdadial@iusearchlinux.fyi
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                1 year ago

                Your adding things that would allow a binary search work, but the question was in a situation where the only evidence is the conflict itself

                2 guys enter one guy punches the other guy they both leave. Nothing is moved no blood was created,

                you could not use a binary search effectively to duduce when it occurred.

                • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Your adding things that would allow a binary search work, but the question was in a situation where the only evidence is the conflict itself

                  I’m describing the vast majority of fights that happen in the public. Also, you’re trying to move the goalposts by focusing on a fight, when the discussion is about the theft of a bike.

                  Edit: One thing we didn’t even mention, AI can also be used these days to notice subtle changes in the video. If a video is a static image of an alley, then two people walk in the alley and fight, even though they leave no traces behind, that moment of the fight is caught on the video with activity/movement. Motion sensor movement, basically.

                  • Kialdadial@iusearchlinux.fyi
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                    1 year ago

                    What does that have to do with a binary search If a camera has AI on it then two things. A you have a system that already would be capturing movement or motion so you already have flags that you can check which would make a binary search mostly unnecessary. and B it’s not binary search. Which is this whole discussion.

                    Cool you’re adding information to the question to make yourself “right” but even your comment says that’s only the vast majority of fights and also you had to clarify in public so there are edge cases where the situation still stands that binary search wouldn’t work or wouldn’t be feasible.

                    A solution doesn’t have to work for 100% of things for it to still be a good solution.

                  • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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                    1 year ago

                    I’m describing the vast majority of fights that happen in the public.

                    But the comment you replied to already addressed those fights, and bike thefts, and the vast majority of cases that you’re talking about, by saying

                    If there is a long-lasting visual cue that the event has or has not happened yet (e.g. a window is either broken or not), then a binary search is very useful.

                    No one is moving goalposts. The parent comment said that binary search is useful in situations like bike thefts where visual cues are present, and not useful in situations where visual cues are not present.

                    In your hypothetical situation involving AI, the AI would use visual cues that are present, and so the situation is covered by the parent comment’s second paragraph. In a situation where there are no visual cues for the AI to use, it would be covered by the third paragraph. They still aren’t wrong about anything.

              • Ardyssian@sh.itjust.works
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                1 year ago

                What about this hypothetical scenario:

                Suppose the objective is to review highway cam footage of the day to verify that a (non-speeding) car with a particular license plate drove past the area / used this route. The route is used 24/7 by many identical cars throughout the day and night, and that our target car is one such identical car, with the only difference being the license plate. We know on average cars that drive past this camera only appear for 3 seconds on the footage. How can binary search be used to find the car within 24 hours of footage, if the target car only appears for 3 seconds within the 24 hour video?

            • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              You didn’t get what was talked about here. Re-read the topmost parent comment.

              I was responding to this …

              Part of my job is to review security footage for reported incidents.

              If there is a long-lasting visual cue that the event has or has not happened yet (e.g. a window is either broken or not), then a binary search is very useful.

              If the event lasts only a moment and leaves no visual cue (e.g. an assault), then binary search is practically useless.

              I disagree with the “leaves no visual cue” part, as I’ve commented on. There’s ALWAYS something caught on the video to help determine things. Maybe not enough, but never nothing.

              • LUHG@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Maybe I’m not understanding both arguments here but I’d like to understand. I’ve had to review footage of a vending machine being shaken to release drinks.

                You have no before or after visual clue as to when the event took place. The only indication is when you physically see it happening. The same could be said for an assault. If nothing is changed in the before or after static still how can you pinpoint the incident?

                • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  You have no before or after visual clue as to when the event took place.

                  That wouldn’t necessarily be true. If you shook it hard enough to move the contents inside the vending machine and the vending machine had a glass front then you would have a static change that would last from the time the event happened until a human being came to work on the machine. That change would be detectable.

                  Or from the shaking the vending machine is moved an inch forward and an inch to the left. That change would be detectable.

                  Everyone arguing against me is trying to focus the point that the event is such a short duration that it’s not detectable afterwards, and what I’ve been arguing the whole time and that people keep ignoring is that most of the time after an event happens that the environment around the event changes, and it’s detectable afterwards.

            • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              You either don’t know what binary search is or you completely missed the context of this conversation

              I’m a computer programmer. I know exactly what a binary search is. I’ve written binary searches before.

              The search is to get you to the point where you can watch the video to see the crime happening, in hopes of indentifying the perpretrator.

                • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Then you missed the point of this conversation

                  You’re being intellectually dishonest, in an attempt to kill the message.

                  This is what was said in the origional OP pic…

                  You don’t watch the whole thing, he said. You use a binary search. You fast forward to halfway, see if the bike is there and, if it is, zoom to three quarters of the way through. But if it wasn’t there at the halfway mark, you rewind to a quarter of the way though. Its very quick. In fact, he had pointed out, if the CCTV footage stretched back to the dawn of humanity it would probably have taken an hour to find the moment of theft.

                  • WoahWoah@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    Yes, but, as you noted in an earlier post, that isn’t what you’re responding to. The point of the post you stated you are responding to is: if an event occurs that leaves no change to the visual context before and after the occurrence, then binary search is ineffective.

                    The fact that you’re wasting this much time trying to defend such a simple error is confusing. The reasonable response is, “oh, yes, in that particular case, binary search is ineffective.”

          • lustyargonian@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            Binary search only works on sorted data, i.e. you know which side of the mid point is pointing towards the incident. If the incident leaves no trail, you can’t know whether you can discard the left side or the right side, making it a complicated linear search at that moment.

            • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              If the incident leaves no trail, you can’t know whether you can discard the left side or the right side

              There’s a moment where the bike is there, then another when its not. The whole video, either way, will either from the beginning up to the point of theft have the bike there, or NOT have the bike there from the point of theft to the end of the video. The marker is the removal of the bike from the video lens.

              • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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                1 year ago

                But the comment you replied to wasn’t talking about bike thefts specifically, it was talking about unspecified situations that don’t leave traces. You responded to someone saying that binary search doesn’t work in situations that don’t leave cues not by arguing against the premise (e.g. “but no such event exists, everything leaves cues”), but by telling them that you simply have to look for the cues from the hypothetical event that didn’t leave any.

                • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  but by telling them that you simply have to look for the cues from the hypothetical event that didn’t leave any.

                  And my point is that the DID leave a clue that a binary search would pick up on, the disappearance of the bike.

                  • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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                    1 year ago

                    But it didn’t, because if it did then it would fall under the second paragraph of their comment, where they said that binary search would be useful. The comment isn’t just talking about bike thefts.

      • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        Let’s use the example of a bike theft. We enter into evidence a 4-hour security cam video that shows the thief with the bike.

        Scenario A: The camera can directly see the bike rack, and the bike in question is visible at the beginning of the video, and not visible at the end. Somewhere in this 4-hour video, someone walks up to the bike and takes it out of the bike rack. You can use a binary search to find the moment that happens in this video because you can pick a frame and say “Ah, this was before the theft; the bike is still there” or “ah, this was after the theft; the bike is gone.”

        Scenario B: The camera can’t directly see the bike rack, but can see the doorway you have to walk through to get to the bike rack. So somewhere in 4 hours of doorway footage, someone walks through the door, then a short time later walks back through the door with the bike. A binary search won’t help here because the door looks the same at the beginning or end of the video. A simple binary search won’t work here because the door looks the same before and after.

        • rekabis@lemmy.ca
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          1 year ago

          This is the explanation that CosmicCleric needs in order to understand binary search.

          Because as it is, (s)he’s failing abysmally at demonstrating any understanding whatsoever of that subject.

          • null@slrpnk.net
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            1 year ago

            Nah, they’re just gonna say you can use AI or something, as a retroactive explanation for what they obviously weren’t talking about in their original comment. They’re a troll; they’re not going to budge.

            Edit: Case in point. They’re now at the level of mental gymnastics that they’re saying part of their original response implied that they were talking about the capabilities of AI at some point in the future.

              • null@slrpnk.net
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                1 year ago

                And to recap, what you said is:

                If an event lasts only a moment and leaves no visual cue, you will see that event happen using a binary search.

                Which is, of course, false.

                • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  And to recap, what you said is:

                  If an event lasts only a moment and leaves no visual cue, you will see that event happen using a binary search.

                  Which is, of course, false.

                  It’s not false if the event changes the environment around it, which was my point.

                  You incorrectly assuming a completely clean and static event that does not affect anything around it afterwards, and in the real world that’s just not usually the case.

                  And for the record, I never said it works 100% of the time.

                  • null@slrpnk.net
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                    1 year ago

                    It’s not false if the event changes the environment around it, which was my point.

                    No it wasn’t. That’s neither implied nor explicitly stated in your initial reply.

        • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Scenario B: The camera can’t directly see the bike rack, but can see the doorway you have to walk through to get to the bike rack. So somewhere in 4 hours of doorway footage, someone walks through the door, then a short time later walks back through the door with the bike. A binary search won’t help here

          I never said it works 100% of the time. This that it would work most of the time. And I make that statement based on the fact that usually the environment changes around the event, or the event happens long enough to be detectable, if not by humans, then by AI.

          In all of my comments I’m assuming that that focal point of the crime is visible.

          But even if it wasn’t, if the person stealing the bike knocks over a trash can while doing it and that’s in the camera view it would still be useable. Or if a crowd congregates around the focus point and looks around for the bike, that would also make a binary search feasible.

          That’s always just been my point, that a binary surgery more often than not works because most times the environment around the event changes in some way, from subtle to extreme.

          • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            You would have to be confident that said change in environment was done by the bike thief. What if that knocked over trash can was done by some unrelated bored teenager twenty minutes after the bike was stolen?

            It might be better to use some software to remove any frame of video that is identical to the one before it, no motion is taking place, etc. then manually watch the much shorter video of “only when stuff happens.”

            • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              You would have to be confident that said change in environment was done by the bike thief.

              Well, the change would happen, the human will be noticed, and then they can watch that moment in time on the tape to see who did it. The binary search would be about shortening what portions of the video tape a human/AI would have to review manually.

              It might be better to use some software to remove any frame of video that is identical to the one before it, no motion is taking place, etc. then manually watch the much shorter video of “only when stuff happens.”

              So, I hope you’re not under the impression that I’m advocating binary search as the ONLY way of doing a search. I’m just staying within the confines of the subject as brought up by the OP, which was about binary searches.

              At the end of the day its about detecting the change/aftereffect, and not the search inandof itself. A binary search just helps you narrow down the video you have to watch manually, especially when there’s allot of it to review.