How? It’s not a MitM or anything like that, it’s connecting exactly how an Apple device would connect. Everything is still E2EE, just one of the ends can now be an Android device.
That’s not how beeper worked. It actually connected from the device directly to the iMessage network. You’re thinking of all the other services that required a virtualized OSX install somewhere to act as a translation layer.
The beeper application is not trusted by anyone except Beeper. As an Apple user, I trust Apple by buying their devices and participating in their services. I have no trust relationship with Beeper whatsoever. They have the the ability to decrypt my messages unbeknownst to me, and do whatever they want with them. Maybe they’ll display them to users nicely in the app. Maybe they’ll do something nefarious with them.
Having user activity flow into 3rd parties is a major security problem. Maybe you don’t see it, but it’s real and it’s there. We’re still trying to clean up the adtech mess on the web after how many years?
That’s an inane argument. Your message always gets decrypted at its end point. Beeper wasn’t doing MiTM attacks. They weren’t hijacking messages. They functioned and behaved as a legitimate end point. If you don’t want a non Apple pleb getting your messages, you simply don’t send them one. Which is basically what your complaint boils down to.
While I agree Apple should have some control over their network. Which they clearly don’t in any way that matters. The controll they’re exerting shouldn’t be allowed. As long as beeper were behaving, which they were. They should be allowed. That you feel security is defined by being handed by a company inept at security in this case, that’s your problem. Secure messages are sent and received from all manner of platforms regularly without issue. No Apple required
Ok, I’m sorry but this comment and this thread is just all over the place.
Beeper wasn’t doing MiTM attacks. They weren’t hijacking messages.
That we know of. Oh, and they’re literally a man in the middle, someone the user shouldn’t expect is in between the data they’re sending. okay, I’ll give you the middle is squishy here because it’s really when it’s decrypted on the client, but still…
They functioned and behaved as a legitimate end point.
Which, they weren’t. They were spoofing credentials and accessing a system without authorization from the system owner. It doesn’t matter if Apple left a hole in the system. Hell, they could have set the password to be ‘12345’ it’s still probably a crime, at least, based on this list of crimes:
having knowingly accessed a computer without authorization or exceeding authorized access
The whole thing basically reiterates over and over that just because you technically have access, that doesn’t mean you are permitted.
While I agree Apple should have some control over their network.
Okay, makes sense.
Which they clearly don’t in any way that matters.
How many iMessage breaches has Apple had?
The controll they’re exerting shouldn’t be allowed.
The “control” is discovering that someone else made a copy of the key to their locks. If i told you that I now have a copy of the key to your house (but trust me bro I’m only going to use it like you would which means using your shit and and selling your food to others) oh and that now basically anyone has a copy to the key to your house, would you change the locks?
As long as beeper were behaving, which they were.
Which they were?! They literally are using fake credentials, accessing a system without authorization, using the infrastructure including the real costs of said infrastructure.
Secure messages are sent and received from all manner of platforms regularly without issue. No Apple required
Welp, you’ve just provided the closing arguments for Apple’s lawyers and any sort of monopoly concern.
The argument of security is bunk, Apple are integrating the more widely used RCS protocol into iMessage. It’ll mean they won’t need their own bespoke protocol either. Besides Apple is known for calling stuff security changes when really they rely on obscurity to not notice how insecure components are such as the method iMessage uses to authenticate now.
When done other apps for messaging will explode in commonality and blow the case open. They just need to finish implementing it.
And if you read the Beeper devs blog, you’d understand how much you misunderstand about the security and encryption implications. If anying, it increases message security by moving messaging from SMS to encrypted iMessage.
https://jjtech.dev/reverse-engineering/imessage-explained/
He invited Apple to have a third party assess his work. So far Apple hasn’t responded.
I have no issue with Apple blocking Beeper, it’s their system. It’s interesting to watch, but the DOJ has no reason to get involved here, it hasn’t even been made a legal issue yet.
If Apple feels it’s a legal issue, they could start legal proceedings. My question is why they haven’t.
Thanks for the links! I enjoyed reading about how iMessage is built on top of APN. That probably explains why I can reply to messages in arbitrary apps on my Apple Watch. :-)
However, that doesn’t change my argument. Beeper is not a trusted party in this exchange. When they show my messages to their users, they are decrypting my messages and user activity in a way that is outside my zone of trust. They can then be nice and show it to their users in their app, or they can be nefarious and send that data to any other 3rd party for whatever purposes they want.
This is a major security hole at the application layer, despite the network layer security that you’ve linked to.
One of the parties has to trust the endpoint. People can screenshot or forward you messages to other people unbeknownst to you, but you have to trust the other person not to do so, how is that any different from trusting another person that they choose a safe app?
So is having unencrypted messages with all non-iOS devices with no real solution in sight. Security is obviously not their concern here, it’s vendor lock in.
SMS doesn’t support encryption, nor is Apple preventing you from downloading any number of encrypted chat apps that work cross platform.
If google didn’t release a new chat app every 6 months we might have a more widespread standard in the US already - and yes RCS is coming to the iPhone next year.
Apple isn’t adopting RCS with encryption, and having iMessage as the default messaging app without any way to allow cross platform E2E encryption is a decision they’ve made.
As far as Google releasing a new chat app is concerned that’s on them. But RCS has existed since 2008 and was included as a feature in Android 5.0 Lollipop all the way back in 2014.
Encryption extension on RCS is a non-standard addon to RCS which is not part of the standard. RCS on Android in general is also run through google servers and Jibe, and isn’t exactly an open standard to begin with.
Apple isn’t preventing cross platform encryption at all, every popular messenger (even Signal) is available in the App Store.
Funny how you twist this from defending Apple to blaming Google, the irony is palpable.
Make up your mind.
No one has to use Google’s apps either.
I despise SMS, have for years, since I could first run a real messenger on my phone. I’ve used XMPP on Android since 2010, and it worked with most every XMPP-based messenger system.
There’s no reason we’re here except end users can’t be bothered to use something if it takes any effort. I have a friend (a millenial, who grew up with tech) who bitches about SMS failures and shitty attachments constantly, but refuses to use any other messenger, doesn’t want to have to “figure out” how to message someone. 🤦♂️ I’m so tired of hearing this excuse. It’s laziness, full stop. Do we struggle to figure out how to phone someone, or send an email (which address?)? Plain old childish laziness. For older folks it’s a different story, but anyone under 40, yea, no, I’m calling bullshit. And I’m in that well-past-40 group.
I use whatever system I can have in common with people, with some exceptions (no privacy-antagonistic garbage like WhatsApp, FB Messenger, Snapchat, etc, and nothing immature like RCS).
Yeah, it’s weird how consumer expectations have shaped up in a way that if there is a solution, it has to come from some gigacorp. Having a third party innovate is so against the reality of US big business that if it isn’t Apple doing it, it must be Google, and interoperability itself does not mean an open standard, just interoperability between Apple and Google.
It’s also a huge security hole
How? It’s not a MitM or anything like that, it’s connecting exactly how an Apple device would connect. Everything is still E2EE, just one of the ends can now be an Android device.
A non-trusted 3rd party that has the capability to decrypt messages? It’s a big problem.
That’s not how beeper worked. It actually connected from the device directly to the iMessage network. You’re thinking of all the other services that required a virtualized OSX install somewhere to act as a translation layer.
The beeper application is not trusted by anyone except Beeper. As an Apple user, I trust Apple by buying their devices and participating in their services. I have no trust relationship with Beeper whatsoever. They have the the ability to decrypt my messages unbeknownst to me, and do whatever they want with them. Maybe they’ll display them to users nicely in the app. Maybe they’ll do something nefarious with them.
Having user activity flow into 3rd parties is a major security problem. Maybe you don’t see it, but it’s real and it’s there. We’re still trying to clean up the adtech mess on the web after how many years?
That’s an inane argument. Your message always gets decrypted at its end point. Beeper wasn’t doing MiTM attacks. They weren’t hijacking messages. They functioned and behaved as a legitimate end point. If you don’t want a non Apple pleb getting your messages, you simply don’t send them one. Which is basically what your complaint boils down to.
While I agree Apple should have some control over their network. Which they clearly don’t in any way that matters. The controll they’re exerting shouldn’t be allowed. As long as beeper were behaving, which they were. They should be allowed. That you feel security is defined by being handed by a company inept at security in this case, that’s your problem. Secure messages are sent and received from all manner of platforms regularly without issue. No Apple required
Ok, I’m sorry but this comment and this thread is just all over the place.
That we know of. Oh, and they’re literally a man in the middle, someone the user shouldn’t expect is in between the data they’re sending. okay, I’ll give you the middle is squishy here because it’s really when it’s decrypted on the client, but still…
Which, they weren’t. They were spoofing credentials and accessing a system without authorization from the system owner. It doesn’t matter if Apple left a hole in the system. Hell, they could have set the password to be ‘12345’ it’s still probably a crime, at least, based on this list of crimes:
The whole thing basically reiterates over and over that just because you technically have access, that doesn’t mean you are permitted.
Okay, makes sense.
How many iMessage breaches has Apple had?
The “control” is discovering that someone else made a copy of the key to their locks. If i told you that I now have a copy of the key to your house (but trust me bro I’m only going to use it like you would which means using your shit and and selling your food to others) oh and that now basically anyone has a copy to the key to your house, would you change the locks?
Which they were?! They literally are using fake credentials, accessing a system without authorization, using the infrastructure including the real costs of said infrastructure.
Welp, you’ve just provided the closing arguments for Apple’s lawyers and any sort of monopoly concern.
The argument of security is bunk, Apple are integrating the more widely used RCS protocol into iMessage. It’ll mean they won’t need their own bespoke protocol either. Besides Apple is known for calling stuff security changes when really they rely on obscurity to not notice how insecure components are such as the method iMessage uses to authenticate now.
When done other apps for messaging will explode in commonality and blow the case open. They just need to finish implementing it.
https://www.engadget.com/what-is-rcs-and-how-is-it-different-from-sms-and-imessage-202334057.html
Funny, you trust apple yet iMessage has major flaws that were written about years ago, that Apple has never addressed. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38537444
And if you read the Beeper devs blog, you’d understand how much you misunderstand about the security and encryption implications. If anying, it increases message security by moving messaging from SMS to encrypted iMessage. https://jjtech.dev/reverse-engineering/imessage-explained/
He invited Apple to have a third party assess his work. So far Apple hasn’t responded.
I have no issue with Apple blocking Beeper, it’s their system. It’s interesting to watch, but the DOJ has no reason to get involved here, it hasn’t even been made a legal issue yet.
If Apple feels it’s a legal issue, they could start legal proceedings. My question is why they haven’t.
Thanks for the links! I enjoyed reading about how iMessage is built on top of APN. That probably explains why I can reply to messages in arbitrary apps on my Apple Watch. :-)
However, that doesn’t change my argument. Beeper is not a trusted party in this exchange. When they show my messages to their users, they are decrypting my messages and user activity in a way that is outside my zone of trust. They can then be nice and show it to their users in their app, or they can be nefarious and send that data to any other 3rd party for whatever purposes they want.
This is a major security hole at the application layer, despite the network layer security that you’ve linked to.
One of the parties has to trust the endpoint. People can screenshot or forward you messages to other people unbeknownst to you, but you have to trust the other person not to do so, how is that any different from trusting another person that they choose a safe app?
Guess what happens when you do anything outside the Apple ecosystem. Guess what’s happening right now on Lemmy.
You’re logic would mean never actually using your device.
So is having unencrypted messages with all non-iOS devices with no real solution in sight. Security is obviously not their concern here, it’s vendor lock in.
SMS doesn’t support encryption, nor is Apple preventing you from downloading any number of encrypted chat apps that work cross platform.
If google didn’t release a new chat app every 6 months we might have a more widespread standard in the US already - and yes RCS is coming to the iPhone next year.
Apple isn’t adopting RCS with encryption, and having iMessage as the default messaging app without any way to allow cross platform E2E encryption is a decision they’ve made.
As far as Google releasing a new chat app is concerned that’s on them. But RCS has existed since 2008 and was included as a feature in Android 5.0 Lollipop all the way back in 2014.
Encryption extension on RCS is a non-standard addon to RCS which is not part of the standard. RCS on Android in general is also run through google servers and Jibe, and isn’t exactly an open standard to begin with.
Apple isn’t preventing cross platform encryption at all, every popular messenger (even Signal) is available in the App Store.
Funny how you twist this from defending Apple to blaming Google, the irony is palpable.
Make up your mind.
No one has to use Google’s apps either.
I despise SMS, have for years, since I could first run a real messenger on my phone. I’ve used XMPP on Android since 2010, and it worked with most every XMPP-based messenger system.
There’s no reason we’re here except end users can’t be bothered to use something if it takes any effort. I have a friend (a millenial, who grew up with tech) who bitches about SMS failures and shitty attachments constantly, but refuses to use any other messenger, doesn’t want to have to “figure out” how to message someone. 🤦♂️ I’m so tired of hearing this excuse. It’s laziness, full stop. Do we struggle to figure out how to phone someone, or send an email (which address?)? Plain old childish laziness. For older folks it’s a different story, but anyone under 40, yea, no, I’m calling bullshit. And I’m in that well-past-40 group.
I use whatever system I can have in common with people, with some exceptions (no privacy-antagonistic garbage like WhatsApp, FB Messenger, Snapchat, etc, and nothing immature like RCS).
Yeah, it’s weird how consumer expectations have shaped up in a way that if there is a solution, it has to come from some gigacorp. Having a third party innovate is so against the reality of US big business that if it isn’t Apple doing it, it must be Google, and interoperability itself does not mean an open standard, just interoperability between Apple and Google.