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- cross-posted to:
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When I lived in Germany for a while, my wife and I took a train across the country one winter to Munich for the Christmas markets. We stayed in a hostel and walked the streets, enjoying the various stalls. I’d never heard of Glüwein before (hot, mulled, spiced red wine), but it was fantastic! It was an amazing experience and we didn’t have to worry about parking lots or figuring out public transportation. Everything was within walking distance and we ended up touring all of Munich on foot.
I wish the US would get off its ass and get some high speed trains set up. We just need to keep oil and auto dealers out of the discussion because they keep shutting it down. Like Musk’s “Hyperloop” project, which he proposed to stop legislation from approving high speed trains, but then intentionally did nothing with, so we just don’t develop trains to replace his Tesla cars.
High speed trains should actually not be the primary focus of the US when it commes to public transport, city/suburban systems are more important.
Don’t get me wrong, the US absolutely needs high speed rail, but without a well functioning local public transport system at both ends you end up with something that conceptually is more like an airport than a european train station.
Without local public transport, travelers still need to go by car to and from the endpoints, just like a lot of airports, this means that stations will require a lot of expensive parking, that is essentially wasted space.
Now, the US will probably allways be car dependant to a higher degree than Europe, this is due to how cities have been built, unchecked urban sprawl with little mixed use zones with few central spots makes it hard to build good metro and bus lines, where do you put the stations, where will people connect?
I won’t pretend to have the answers, I absolutely don’t, but I know that regardless of how public transport is established in new and existing neighbourhoods there will be angry people, but lets just make sure that the happy people outnumber them
100% without local city restructuring with mixed zoning and suburban redevelopment for proper land use, high speed rail developments will result on those stupid “middle of nowhere” train stations that are just railways from giant parking lot to giant parking lot. Completely undermining the whole point of rail that is being able to drop you off right in the middle of dense cities, which airports can’t due to the logistics of flight.
Agree if by “local public transport” you mean “put things next to each other, without 18 400-car parking lots separating them”
To make public transport successful you need mixed use zoning, small community centers where you can connect from longer routes to more local routes, meeting places with a few shops/cafés/restaurants, parking will be needed as well, but not insane surface lots, but a garage with 2-3 levels should be fine.
Sometimes to get to work I drive one mile, park (expensively) and then take the train 8 miles, then walk a mile, carrying all the shit I need for work, including my dinner, laptop, change of clothes and 3 40z water bottles. Usually I just drive.
You can say a lot about Stockholm, but one thing it does have is excellent public transport, fully integrated with the suburbs.
In my municipality we have a local train line and several bus lines that can take me into the city, during rush hour busses depart every 5-10 min or so from my closest bus stop, bus lanes along the highway work well and it usually takes me an hour to get to the office, 40 min during summer, this is to cover about 30km.
it usually takes me an hour to get to the office, 40 min during summer, this is to cover about 30km.
The problem here in Portland is I have between an 11 and 13 mile commute to the office downtown. 18 to 20 km.
To use the bus or light rail to and from work, figure out how long it would take to drive, then add on an extra hour in the morning and an hour and a half at night.
I might pay $20 a day to park, but I get back 2.5 hours a day in time. My time is worth far more than $8/hr.
Helsinki area is kind of like that as well. The times can get very long if you have to take a few routes while straight travel can be very fast. Coverage is pretty great.
I see what you’re saying, but the advantage of intercity rail, not necessarily high-speed, but rail that goes from one city to another at commuter speeds, that is definitely worth having where I live. I’m in Terre Haute, IN. There isn’t a ton of work here. A lot of people here make the 80-90 minute drive to either Indianapolis or Bloomington to their jobs. There is already a bus line here if people need that and, yes, it could go to more places, but Indiana used to have a robust rail network that linked the entire state and doing something like that today would have a lot of advantages. Not just the job issue, but both Indianapolis and Bloomington are desirable destinations for things like restaurants and shows and people from all over the state drive to them (and a few other small cities) very regularly because of that.
The way I see it, a lot more CO2 emissions would be reduced with intercity rail in this state and the public bus transportation in various Indiana cities is already decent.
Sorry, I think you missunderstand me, I didn’t mean that the US should abandon any existing rail project, but that the local public transport system if often forgotten in the talk about HSR
I’m not talking about existing rail projects either. I’m essentially agreeing with you that HSR is a distraction, but I’m also saying that intracity rail that is not HSR can be more important than public transportation inside a city, so it depends on where you are in the U.S. on which should be focused.
Dude I’m traveling to Texas in a few months and I didn’t realize how close Dallas/Fort Worth, Houston, and Austin are. It’s like a triangle, 2.5 to 3.5 hours between either city. Waco and San Antonio sit on the line between Austin and DFW.
These cities are linked by a rather nice highway system from what I remember last time I was in TX, but to the best of my knowledge, there’s no high-speed rail, only rail that’s slower than driving most the time.
Why? Texas should be embarrassed. Especially with Houston being so close to Galveston, which is a pretty damn good port.
High speed trains for city to city transit wouldn’t allow for markets like this. You need suburb to city core transit for that…
Oh, wait:
This reminds me of that AskHistorian thread of someone asking where people parked their chariots when Roman citizens went to the coliseum.
Heh. Their palanquin or litter would drop them off and go sit in an alley or street somewhere, probably. Like how carriages in later centuries would.
Palanquins were used only by noble families, if even. Less than 1% of the population and even less than that of the amount of people who would assist to the coliseum were carried there. Almost everyone just walked.
i’d be very surprised if some people with carts didn’t set up an impromptu bus service for events
Well?
Where did they?
Iirc, chariots where only used to transport people and goods between towns and cities, being pretty rare inside cities if not completely forbidden.
so… they park them at city limits? it’s a good question
Trick question. They didn’t, the chauffeur did it for them.
New Yorkers get it but that’s about it.
I think Chicago is the only other US city that comes close, their transit is fantastic!
And they’ve got Christkindlmarket.
DC’s light rail is pretty nice too. LA’s could be nice if there were more frequent trains, but that probably has more to do with how sprawled LA is.
I used the red line all the time when I lived in LA. It was crazy to me that so few people who lived there even knew it existed.
At the time, the other two lines were, if I remember correctly, the blue and green lines. Those were much more working class commute type lines that didn’t go anywhere particularly interesting, but the red line ran from downtown out through Hollywood, and then on to universal where I could enjoy some of the bars at City Walk without worrying about driving or parking.
Now I live maybe less than five miles from downtown Dallas and I never go there because there’s no train and the driving/parking situation is a nightmare.
Clarification: There are trains that go to downtown Dallas. Just not from my neighborhood.
I (US citizen living in Japan for most of a decade) took my wife (only in the US once as an elementary school student and only Honolulu) to DC for the first time a couple of months ago. I was pleasantly surprised. I had ridden DC’s subways once or twice on trips there. We were table to do everything we wanted on foot, by bus, and by train. Getting on the train from Dulles, though, we had some only-partly-clothed woman passed out with what I can only assume was a trail of partly-dried piss on the floor by her. Police took her off when we got into the city at some point, but it was a less-than-stellar start. That said, I’ve seen people puke and piss on trains in Tokyo as well.
San Francisco always gets left out of these as well, but transit there rocks
Portland is pretty decent too. Not as good as SF, but you can reasonably get around the entire area on public transportation.
SF is easily as well-served by public transit as Chicago. It’s the 2nd densest city in the US, behind NYC. Between Muni, the streetcars and busses and BART, there’s always an easy way to get anywhere in The City. You can even jump on a cable car if that’s your thing.
I knew what a flea market was long before I moved to NY.
They’re talking about not having to drive everywhere, not flea markets
Citation needed.
Reading comprehension needed
Nah I understood it fine.
For what? I was just trying to explain the joke lol
Lol if you have to explain the joke there is no joke lol
If only you need the joke explained, you’ve doubled the number of jokes in the thread
Don’t.
Sometimes people have little difficulties understanding jokes and need a little help.
And sometimes the joke isn’t funny.
No, that’s the point. With good public transit people wouldn’t need Citations.
They probably assumed this is like a theme park or something and not an actual city that people actually live in year round. Cities having nice, people friendly places away from cars? Who’s ever heard of that?
They have transit to back that up though. There are plenty of smallish towns and rural areas that don’t have any transit at all.
I live in France, about 30 minutes from a major city. There is transit, but it’s not good, and has very few stops near where I live. Grocery shopping has to be done by car or bike as there aren’t any shops in the village. European cities are extremely well served by transit, but outside the metropolitan areas, cars are still king.
It’s a really interesting thread. Cities are great, suburb & rural can be great and transit is great. 15 minute cities are great goals, but it’s not a one size fits all situation. I can’t figure out how they think these utopian 15 minute cities would work if they don’t have a working transit built in. It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist? Do they think parents love sending their kids down the block to play by themselves instead of the backyard? Their choices aren’t going to make sense for a ton of people. They’re either right out of school or trolling, I can’t tell which.
It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist?
As a handicapped person myself, it really baffles me how people think car oriented infrastructure is so much better for us. I am a wheelchair user, and I live in a 15 minute neighborhood. Getting around in my wheelchair is a million times simpler there than in my old car-centric suburb, because the same disabilities that make me wheelchair bound also prevent me from driving. Which mean that in a car-centric environment I do one of the following:
a) Rely on the generosity of friends and family to cart me around at their convenience, or b) Utilize shared access rides, which are door to door, but take longer than using public transit, or c) Roll myself to underserved suburban bus stops over badly maintained sidewalk, and pray I make it on time.
None of which are appealing.
Meanwhile, in my 15 minute city:
- The buses often run at 10 to 15 minute intervals (vs 30 to 60 minutes in the suburb),
- Sidewalks are larger
- I have less distance to travel in the first place
And you’re not blind and don’t have a caretaker I assume.
Correct on both counts.
You never even seen the Netherlands, have you? Also, what I tell everyone who comes up with these kind of non-questions, no one is taking your car away. Cars still exist in Europe, but they are not the default, they are used for what they make sense, making irregular trips of 100+Km. But chances are, that there is a train that serves the route anyway.
Handicapped people: most have access to electric micro-mobility vehicles that are legal to use on bike lanes. For those who can’t use micro vehicles, there’s still cars, and vans. They still exists. They weren’t magicked away.
Kids: My sister lives in the outskirts of Madrid, her neighborhood is littered with dozens of parks of all kinds, all less than 10 minute walks. My 10 y.o. nephew can go on his own to many parks without ever having to set foot on asphalt, cross a road or get on neither a bus or a car. He has never had to play on a street. They live in an urban tower that, while they don’t have a personal green cancer backyard, they have a skatepark, a playground, a pet park, sport courts (tennis, badminton, soccer and basketball), a running trail and a botanical garden, all within walking distance.
The first time I went to Amsterdam I was very surprised to see children just wandering about coming from or going to a nearby park. It’s not something you really see here in the US.
Not anymore. It used to be the rule in the US. Even as recently as the 70s and 80s when I was a kid, we’d be gone from home all day everyday when not in school, just roaming around town and keeping ourselves entertained, usually on bikes or skateboards. We got up to a lot of mischief and hijinks, but nothing too serious, and we had a great time doing it.
Same. 80s kid myself. I used to get on my bicycle and roam for MILES. The rule was be home by dark. Had a house key when I was 9.
You might want to go through my comments again, lol. You seem very upset about me somewhat disagreeing with you.
Handicapped people: most have access to electric micro-mobility vehicles that are legal to use on bike lanes. For those who can’t use micro vehicles, there’s still cars, and vans. They still exists. They weren’t magicked away.
This comment really is funny when you look at it. First you’re pretty patronizing that they have access to the bike lanes too! I know in Seattle, you’d be crazy to use the bike lanes if you were handicapped. And 15 minute cites usually have “walkable” in the tagline.
They live in an urban tower that, while they don’t have a personal green cancer backyard, they have a skatepark, a playground, a pet park, sport courts (tennis, badminton, soccer and basketball), a running trail and a botanical garden, all within walking distance.
Great, now compare that to a mini or studio apartment in Seattle. Better yet, compare that to an apartment on the South side of Chicago. As like anything else, if you’re wealthy (not poor or middle class), everything is awesome.
I don’t know why you’re arguing with me, your black and white stance is confusing and tone deaf.
My family is quite the opposite of wealthy. It has nothing to do with class. The fact that the US did cities wrong doesn’t mean that somehow 15 min cities don’t work. I read the whole thread and you seem to be either really confused or rather short of reading comprehension. You seem to have the impression that a bike lane is an asphalt gutter next to the cars where only athletic young men in full sport gear ride bicycles. But in Europe bike lanes are segregated wide, well conditioned spaces, where kids, people with mobility limitations, adults and elderly all share a slow speed lane safe and protected from cars.
The fact that the US did cities wrong doesn’t mean that somehow 15 min cities don’t work.
I’m not saying they don’t? Wow, there must be a language barrier or something. I’m saying yes they can and do work, but some people want something else.
Yeah, and the people who want something else use the same arguments and rhetoric questions you have used all over this thread that are all fallacies meant to shutdown promotion of the concept because they feel personally threatened by the idea of stopping oil dependence.
I can’t figure out how they think these utopian 15 minute cities would work if they don’t have a working transit built in. It’s so weird
Isn’t the assumption that the 15 minute city is a neighbourhood in a functional city? There should be transit.
It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist?
I lived in something like a fifteen minute neighbourhood. I saw people in wheelchairs around. They appeared to use the same amenities as everyone else.
Do they think parents love sending their kids down the block to play by themselves instead of the backyard?
Our kids preferred going to playgrounds because the toys and play structures were better. And they ran into kids they knew.
Their choices aren’t going to make sense for a ton of people.
I’m not sure what would be bad about a fifteen minute neighbourhood. It’s just a normal neighbourhood, with stores, schools, work, and civic infrastructure.
As far as I can tell, a fifteen minute neighbourhood only adds to what exists, rather than taking away.
There should be transit.
No, there are people in this thread saying that 15 minute cities are the transit. You’d think that would be the case.
As far as I can tell, a fifteen minute neighbourhood only adds to what exists, rather than taking away.
Look again at this thread, lol.
Neighborhoods that promote no cars would be great as long as they have the transit to back it up, imo as well.
Dig deeper and you’ll see the crazy.
Handicapped people are more affected by the inverse. Small cities are great, car-centric communes are terrible for them. They’ve worked out their own mobility issues, but those solutions are interrupted when the crosswalks and pedestrian bridges are affected. If the “solution” involves getting in and out of a car repeatedly, it’s often cumbersome for people in wheelchairs.
The point on kids really relates more to neighborhood safety, and how often people interact with a community. Often, kids should be trusted to go down the street to the park. All our old Saturday newspaper comics involve kids going places themselves on foot or bike instead of constantly “being dropped off”.
Impossible. This thread has shown me that literally all of Europe has year round Christmas markets with form of mechanical transportation. An entire continent reduce to pre-horse travel. Enough with facts feelings are all that is real.
I enjoy when someone shows up to prove the meme true
That the US doesn’t have great transit? You’re totally correct. :)
That you can’t imagine how it possibly could.
You think the rest of the world just, I guess, found the natural transit in the ground? The rest of the world built public transit systems to satisfy the people. America did not, to satisfy the companies.
to pre-empt the standard responses:
“america is very big”, yes yes so is the rest of the world, we managed.
“America isn’t as dense”, yup the rest of the world has low densities, too. We still build infrastructure, though
“It’s very expensive and we already bought a car and made all these empty dead suburban environments, it would take people three hours by bus to get to a store”, yup America made its choices there, the rest of the world zones so that people live near the infrastructure they need and can get the things they need via transit.
You have a very rosy view of “the rest of the world.” The truth is that “the rest of the world” includes a vast array of different urban environments, some of which are very well-planned and executed, and others of which are, not so much, shall we say. This binary between the US and “the rest of the world” is bullshit and is intellectually lazy. I can only think that you have no formal education in urban studies.
The binary is between the parts of the world that had the resources and technology to build mass transit and decided not to, and the rest of the world that did. It just happens to fall into America vs. the rest of the world.
I don’t know why you want to throw in jabs about random people’s education level. That is super weird.
I can’t believe you managed to fit all those words in their mouth. That’s kinda impressive. Like word tetris.
Well this guy’s apparently never been to Germany, they do in fact have a lot of parking garages and street parking in cities. Is straight up lying how you’re going to convince people to build public transit?
Of course there is some parking, but there is no need for a dedicated car park for this market. Many of these people will have come on foot or by public transport, that isn’t a lie at all. Public transport in Germany isn’t exactly a model to follow imo (I was surprised, I expected it to be down to an art tbh), but like most of Europe the cities are walkable and at least have some form of public transport system.
I was surprised, I expected it to be down to an art tbh
The Nazis were so fucking good at propaganda. People still believe the “Germans are so efficient and good at everything” today, it’s wild
Of course there is some parking, but there is no need for a dedicated car park for this market.
Most people visit this market (Striezelmarkt in Dresden, Germany) using public transport, yes, but the market does have a “dedicated” car park.
In fact, this market is built directly on top of a giant underground car park.
There is no parking area just for the christmas market though, which is what the american assumed
Completely off topic, but can anyone pinpoint this Christmas market? Looks hella cozy, but I don’t recognize the buildings around it.
I’d say that’s the Striezelmarkt in Dresden (Germany’s oldest Christmas market over 580 years old) but the big ones kinda all look like that.
By the way that’s what they have to say about the posts topic on their website: “best accessibility: local public transport, on foot and by bike”
I believe that is Dresden.
they dont park cars. They crush them and build new ones when they want to go somewhere
There was an old cartoon where they did this. I can’t find it anymore
Is that Munich? I’m getting strong Viktualienmarkt vibes.
I would say it’s Dresden.
Definitetly it’s the Altmarkt
Image Transcription: Twitter Post
gaut, @0xgaut
the American mind cannot comprehend this
[A screenshot of a Facebook post with reply, transcribed below]
It’s beginning to look a lot like Christmas
Christmas market in Germany 🇩🇪
I want to know how they deal with parking? They probably have huge parking garages 🤷♀️
Image Transcription: Twitter Post
That’s enough information, thanks.
deleted by creator
The American hate is pretty stupid really… especially from people who can’t imagine how large a place they’re trying to disparage.
Edit: fuck you lame motherfuckers… Pile it on. What I said is true.
Envy breeds contempt, simple as that
“You can’t criticize us because our country is bigger than yours”
What?
I didn’t say anything about criticism.
I said hate.
And it’s fucking stupid because it fails to recognize that the US isn’t the stereotypical monolith that the haters envision.
It’s a very diverse place with lots of variety in what there is to experience.
We have a bunch of Christmas markets in the US. They get pretty packed. There are parking garages near them since their downtown in major cities (DC, Baltimore, Philly).
deleted by creator
Garages are better than lots. Especially garages under buildings. No Americans have been tricked into anything. None of us have a say in how our cities were designed. That was mostly auto makers at the turn of the century.
Enough with the facts my feelings are all that is real
Where are your facts? Because it’s awfully hilarious you say that feelings are all that is real, when really feelings are all that is real to you.
“It feels like we have parking so this is fine”.
Here are some actual facts: Europe has larger stadiums that hold more people and don’t have giant parking lots 12x the size of the area they serve.
Parking lots are stupid, and big parking lot cities in the US are stupid. Enough with your feelings
We have a pretty sweet stadium in downtown Portland. It only holds like 22k give or take, but there’s no parking lots and light rail service is basically across the street, so we get a real old-world vibe there. Plus the Timbers Army is probably the biggest and most well-organized supporters group in anglophone North America. A Timbers match is definitely worth the price of admission if you ever get a chance to visit. Preferably on a rainy weeknight if you want the real Pacific Northwest experience.
Tell me where I said
"t feels like we have parking so this is fine”.
Or you can admit you do not care or know what “” means. We both know what you will do.
The comment you are supporting is saying that dummy.
And yeah I paraphrased in quotes, this isnt a fucking article and I’m not a journalist.
What’s funny is that’s all you found as a rebuttal and you’re still here talking about your feelings, not facts.
No.
Christmas markets in the US are barely more than a themed Farmer’s market.
How are European ones different?
For one they are much larger in size, which is the whole argument here. They do civil engineering and public transport better.
They have much more tradition. Having been to many on both continents, the ones in the Americas are much more of a money grab than a celebration.
In Europe it’s a bunch of people standing by stalls eating their favorite seasonal/traditional food listening to music and chilling around with family, not buying local goods/stuff. That’s for tourists.
In the Americas it’s long lines of people, moving them through and out of the market after they purchased outrageously priced common food items slapped with some sort of german/chistmas/winter spin to it. Minimal decoration and theme to call it a Christmas market.
I’m not European btw
For one, Christmas markets in countries that traditionally do them are significantly larger. The largest ones in the US would be a mid size one in Berlin.
Tbf Berlin is likely to be the largest one, right?
There are like 50 in Berlin alone.
Oh no the horror! I won’t be able to get vegetables that look funny for more money than a supermarket.
Wasn’t aware that flea markets were not a thing anymore.
Are they that crowded where you are? And outside?
Yes. Not my thing but other people seem to enjoy shopping inefficiently. Think it is like when I give my guinea pigs a box to “explore” or jiggle keys infront of a baby.
Let me know if you have any further questions about flea markets.
If only the EU understood just how sparse the US is geographically compared to the EU they may understand why cars are such a necessity.
We are talking about walking around a city lol, not a country
Even in a lot of big us cities, most people don’t live in the city. I live in a metro area with 2 million but only 300k in the city. That’s 1.7 million with no public transit. Also all of the people farther out that aren’t vin the metro area, no public transit. A very small percentage of people in the US have non-car options, and even where it exists it is generally terrible.
TIL the US doesn’t have cities
People in the US have to travel 500km on their car every day just to go shopping, sadly nobody has figured out a way to build shops closer to the population or any sort of sharable transport.
Nope not a one. I saw a picture of some primitive form of shopping in Germany and this the US has no cities whatsoever.
Lmao. No the US like to kill all competition and forcing you to take your car 30 minutes to go to walmart. It’s often illegal in a lot of places to have a shop on the ground floor of a residential building. This is by design.
American suburbs are cancer. See also “the missing middle”.
lol
