- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- europe@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- europe@lemmy.ml
cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/48972064
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They’re all busy proving they can out-fascist the fascists before the upcoming elections.
Turns out an AFD victory wasn’t even necessary for Germany to go to hell. The centrists are the same bunch of cowards as they have always been, and are more than willing to give humanity up on a whim.
Would love to hear from any Germans what their thoughts are about voting next year. Seems pretty fucked from the outside.
Overall, I find your comment exaggerated and its logic doesn’t hold up entirely:
- A clearer line would be good, but it’s wrong to frame the entire political class as unfettered warmongers when in practice only defensive material is being delivered. If you read the article – the last time actual weapons were delivered was in February 2024. What was delivered since are helmets and other defensive material, and (possibly maybe!) spare parts for weapons. Future weapons deliveries were never categorically excluded though, as Germany does not want to cross Israel (there’s “a special relationship”). Within the coalition the party most opposed to [weapons deliveries] are the left-of-center Greens, whereas the barely-left-of-center SPD and the libertarian FDP would likely not have put in the brake.
- Delivering weapons to Israel won’t actually help you gain votes in Germany. Claiming that weapon deliveries to Israel is a populist move (which is how I interpret “out-fashing the fashs”) is disingenuous when 70% of Germans are against weapon deliveries to Israel.
- Centrists will feel bound to support Israel because this is the “reason of state” and we’ve always done it that way. They are the most likely to support weapon deliveries.
- Right-wingers are isolationist. They hate Jews and they hate Muslims. Their belief system is fluid enough that their support can go either way: Fairly right-wing people solidarizing with Gazans or Afd in parliament decrying antisemitism because it helps them further their goal of sowing distrust against Muslims.
- Left-wingers are usually pro-humanitarian and also traditionally largely pro-Palestinian, although I guess that support has gotten weaker.
You’re making valid points.
There’s many things going on. Scholz’ peraonal weakness, the weakness of the ruling coalition, and the special relationship that you mentioned is certainly some of them. I also feel like there is a move to the right in order to meet the challrnge from the AfD. Maybe to a degree that’s even necessary, but the way it appears to me it’s as if the whole political establishment is just stumbling over itself.
Not necessarily just from these news, it’s more a general frustration. And you are probably right that I exaggerate, that tends to be a side effect of frustration. I am trying to understand what’s going on in Germany as well, to which your comment is insightful - so thanks for that! :)
I also feel like there is a move to the right in order to meet the challrnge from the AfD.
That shift does exist, unfortunately across all major parties. The Left Party is sorta excluded from that dynamic but only because the left/right hybrid BSW split off.
However, it’s centered around stoking fear in/picking up fears from the majority society against immigrants/LGBTQ people (and other perceived societal outsiders). It is largely independent of behavior toward Israel [though] - [behavior toward Israel] follows a script that may be problematic too but [is not] defined [or majorly influenced] by Afd. Except for the aspects I named before: Right-wing isolationism (which may mean not delivering weapons to Israel and protesting for peace) as well as making refugees, many of whom are Muslims feel unwelcome (which may means using their [real or perceived] antisemitism against them).
which your comment is insightful
Thanks!
Is there no notable internal opposition in the SPD against the alliance with Netanyahu, the anti-European symbolic politics, and the creeping towards the right?
I interpret the situation as being several unwelcome trends that might in part be predictable, but not inevitable, and especially not as the chancellor is a social democrat. No matter how much sense these things make, I can’t shake off the feeling that Merkel stepping down and the SPD taking over in many ways feels like a step to the right.
I attribute that to the weakness of Sholz, who seems to be doing what he can to cling to power. But I might indeed be completely (or at least partially) missing the mark.
It is fucked. The political spectrum moved to the right very strongly. I would see the current “social democrats” to be right of the conservative CDU under Merkel. The left party evaporated and a pro-Putin block (BSW) broke off and seems to be stronger now. Aside from being pro-Putin they also whistle nationalist anti-immigration policy.
The CDU and their bavarian sister CSU went full far right populism, claiming immigrants to be stealing dentist appointments and now also fighting “trans ideology”. The CSU had many appointments with Trumpists to learn strategy from them.
The neo-liberal FDP now said, that Argentinians Milei and Elon Musk should be the role models to strive for, so the also go complete austerity, sell every scrap of functioning infrastructure, fuck the poor and also racist anti-immigration stances.
The green party moved from being center-left to being center right, also following the anti-immigration bullshit and being the strongest on radical support for Israels war crimes and supporting authoritarian crackdowns on dissenting people, in particular dissenting jewish people in Germany. However all parties signed off on a recent “non-binding, but kind of binding resolution” to “tackle antisemitism” by suggesting measures like universities, museums and art galleries to have a contact with the interior intelligence and have the interior intelligence surveil any scientist or artist for “signs of antisemitism” to revoke their funding and access to spaces of culture and research.
Oh, and SPD and CDU are already looking forward to implement unconstitutional total surveillance of every citizen again, like they have tried a bunch of time over the past decades, so far being blocked by the constitutional court.
So Tl,dr: The entire political spectrum moved from options ranging from left to right to options ranging from center right to fascism. Good thing for Poland that the German army is incompetent these days.
The Green party blocked arms deliveries to Israel on humanitarian grounds for months.
Also the resolution uses the definition for antisemitism from the IHRA, which very clearly states:
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.
If anything the Greens namely Baerbock have done that quite a bit. She as the foreign minister was in shouting matches with Netanyhau over aid flow to Gaza.
And then delivered more weapons as well as abstained from general assembly votes and most importantly repeatedly reiterated how Germany is one of the closest allies of Israel…
being the strongest on radical support for Israels war crimes and supporting authoritarian crackdowns on dissenting people
That is what you said. Obviously that does not align, with what I just wrote and sourced.
And then delivered more weapons
“Of this, the entire value is accounted for by ‘other military equipment’,” from the article. Hence those are not weapons, but restricted components or protective gear.
abstained from general assembly votes
They would have voted for or against. Abstaining means you do not fully agree with the resolution, but are also not fully against it. Anybody who is as you claim a strong radical supporter, would never abstain on those issues.
Shit.
Thanks for the write-up. It fits my general impression of what has been going on, but I was low key hoping I was being paranoid.
Is there at least a chance Die Linke has gotten rid of some problematic tendencies now that Wagenknecht created her own lunatic party? Not that they would put up much of a fight from their 4% of the Bundestag.
It looks as if the left has at least understood that they have to change something. There have been quite a few campaigns to attract attention so far.
Also, about 20% of the current members joined after Wagenknecht left. The new members are mainly young people who obviously don’t like Wagenknecht. I think the pro-Ukraine wing in the party has become much stronger as a result, but they are holding back because they don’t want to have a fight during the election campaign.
I have always struggled with what I would vote if I were a German voter. I haven’t liked the SPD since they followed Blair down the drain and Lafontaine left, I couldn’t vote for die Linke knowing it was a safe haven for the Wagenknechts out there, and don’t get me started on the Greens.
So for the first time since I became aware of German politics, I’m eyeing an opening where I could possibly have voted in good conscience in a German election. So that gives me some hope out of all this madness.
Of course, I cannot vote anyway, so blah.
I can see how the SPD/Scholz are cowards with their refusal to ship taurus missiles to Ukraine. But apart from that how are all centrist cowards?
Closing Schengen borders appeared to me another populist move to try to steal the populist vote by simply becoming them. Arming Israel instead of standing up to crimes against humanity, even after the issue of the ICC arrest warrants, is another bad look. Especially while refusing Ukraine.
I live in Denmark, the Social Democrats here successfully marginalized the far right by in many ways becoming them. And it seems like the SPD is taking notes. It’s disturbing, and I don’t like it.
Edit: I guess I misunderstood your question, and you make a fair point. I don’t think all centrists are necessarily cowards; When I said “centrist cowards” I mean they’re centrists in effect of having abandoned their ideology and any left wing (or Christian or conservative) DNA for the benefit of playing politics, and cowards in effect of being cowards.
There’s of course a history in Germany for cowardly centrists. Hitler’s rise is in no small part the story of Hindenburg’s weakness.
I don’t rule out that brave centrists also exist. I know they do. But they need to believe in something.
Ideologies can be dangerous, even when well meaning. It seems we have responded to this insight by stripping politics of ideology, leaving a sort of bland grey mass. I think what we are slowly learning now is that a lack of ideology is also dangerous - politics lack direction, and it feels like we are fumbling around in the dark. And it turns out the grey mass can turn brown very easily.
Sometimes centrists can be ideologically driven, and their position in the centre of the political spectrum can be strongly motivated. It’s also relative - by many people’s standards (certainly around here) I’m probably a centrist myself. But when it’s just centrism due to a lack of back bone - like the SPD these days - it’s both cowardly and dangerous.
Yeah, Ukraine’s by far biggest European supporter is refusing to support Ukraine. Just like they shipped weapons within 2 days of Russia’s invasion (ones we could all see in footage) while not doing anything for months. And now they even help killing Palestinians with those air-defense ships and submarines, engines and spare parts (the actual things shipped to Israel) dropped on them.
But good to see that propaganda-induced braindamage is doing its intended job. Keep voting for the “we are totally not far-right, just saying the same things”-right in your country (also we really need more stories of how Denmark should be our model on how to defeat the far right by becoming then… it’s nearly a day since the last one!) while worrying what those evil Germans are up to again. Everything working as planned. 🤡
Germany has of course been an important ally of Ukraine. German support per GDP is higher than the US, but lower than Canada, and 15th in the world. They’re doing better than France, but France is of course down the drain these days.
I’m just disappointed because I would have expected more from Germany. I half expected them to play a leading role in Europe and in the protection of the human rights regime globally. Instead what we’re getting is this shit.
I don’t understand what else you’re trying to say, so I’ll leave it at that. I can’t even tell if you’re agreeing with me or not.
