Legit though, why be rude to a fellow for rolling up politely as a dude? Like, if he’s hitting on you and it isn’t welcome, you tell them up bugger off politely. But just someone looking for some conversation? Man, I actually dislike strangers in general, I’ve got PTSD issues. But I still wouldn’t automatically push the guy away without a solid explanation. And I’m actually known for being blunt about things in public. But when you go to some places, including bars, there’s an assumption that it’s a shared space and you treat other people as well as they’ll allow.
Like, if you aren’t willing to be polite and at least explain why a stranger isn’t welcome in your group, maybe a bar isn’t the best place to meet up? Nobody is obligated to welcome them in with open arms if they don’t want to, but you do it nicely because that’s a fellow human being trying to be social and friendly. You say, “hey man, sorry, this is an in group situation, we’re here as an established group doing our thing.” You don’t dis them, you don’t act like they’re bad for looking at you and your group and thinking “maybe those dudes could be cool to hang with”. That’s a good thing if someone thinks you and your crew are interesting.
I dunno, maybe I’m fucking weird, but as much as I hate crowded places, and dislike random contact, I can’t think of a single time where I would have rejected someone without a friendly explanation why.
We gotta be better to each other. We don’t all hang the be friends, but we can be nice about it, can’t we?
So the girl is wrong for not wanting to be sexually objectified by a random stranger…? If you knew how much women are harrassed and objectified all the god damn time when going out, you would know that being polite to these guys only sends them the wrong signals and makes them think that you are interested and they have a chance, and will make things worse.
The core problem with these incel guys is that they feel totally entitled to a womans body and attention. They aren’t!
Yes everyone deserves a happy and healthy relationship with others and social connections, but these guys are so bitter that they literally think spending 30 dollars on a beer should give them access to a girl.
If they would genuinely want to just have a conversation with them he wouldn’t have drawn the conclusion that he stated at the end. He wouldn’t have to feel that rejected. It’s because he was there especially to find a girl to date, that the girl couldn’t live up to his expectations.
Women aren’t objects to obtain or fuck. And honestly most women get harrassed and stalked and get unwanted attention from men so much that they sense the intentions of these guys immediately.
You not only assume that the person in the text is a bad person, but that I’m also thinking the way you seem to think is the default.
Look, go back and reread what I wrote while assuming the best. That I’m looking at the text with compassion and the goal of not fucking with someone.
Then go back to the original text and look at it without the assumption that the person is acting badly. Look at it with compassion, with the assumption that they don’t know how to interact with people yet. Or look at it from the perspective I wrote from, that if someone approaches your group in a public place, that maybe being nice, being gentle is the way we’re supposed to start out.
You do realize I didn’t mention anything about women needing to be polite to someone hitting on them, right? I mean, the very first line of the comment you’re responding to says “legit though, why be rude to a fellow for rolling up politely as a dude”. That sets the framework for the perspective of the comment. It’s a dude talking about how to treat other dudes that approach your group in public.
We’re talking about two separate things, or that’s my base assumption in this response. That you aren’t just ranting about something random and didn’t read the comment, but that you just missed the first line, or that I didn’t phrase it well enough, and need to explain it better.
See what I mean though? You didn’t even come at this neutrally, you started off with putting words in my mouth (or on my screen, I guess), and I’m still here trying to assume the best instead of just blocking you because you’re off on your own tangent that doesn’t respond to what I actually wrote. I’m being direct, but I’m still (so far) being nice about it instead of just blasting you or otherwise forgetting that you’re human and can make mistakes without intending to be a jerk.
You’re right, I didn’t come at this neutrally. I didn’t get that you were talking from the perspective of being a guy, sorry. I respect that you still try to assume good intentions and you’re right that it will probably get you further than assuming the worst about people.
I might have been talking about a different point than you, but my view on that is still the same. I just do not think the guy in question had other intentions than to pick up a girl and I do not agree with his conclusion at the end. The whole concept of the incel mentality is just frustrating to me and I have no idea how to handle that.
And yes you’re right, that if the guys were a bit more elaborate on why dude was in the wrong they could’ve helped the dude. I mean he probably doesn’t have friends in the first place which makes it even worse to try and talk to people.
Oh, I’m with you there! Women being treated like not only is their presence permission to hit on them, but that they have to accept it or end up the target of abuse is way out of hand.
A lot of it comes from a lack of guidance, imo. Back in my youth, the shit that was in movies and on TV perpetuated the whole persistence model of romance, and young men never got told that it was not realistic. I knew so many boys and young men that genuinely thought they had to be aggressive (as opposed to just presenting themselves) because there was the idea that women want that. And, yeah some people do value aggression and persistence in their idea of romance, but it’s far from the majority.
It seems that there’s still that false perception, and the only real way to counter it is genuine, direct guidance for people before they internalize it. We gotta teach our kids both directly by explaining what is and isn’t acceptable, and by living that example. For adults, it’s similar. We gotta be direct about explaining to other men (and even women to women) that it just isn’t okay to treat people like a goal, a piece of meat.
So, yeah, I feel you there. The incel as a social phenomenon has to be countered whenever possible. We just can’t let it fester
Legit though, why be rude to a fellow for rolling up politely as a dude? Like, if he’s hitting on you and it isn’t welcome, you tell them up bugger off politely. But just someone looking for some conversation? Man, I actually dislike strangers in general, I’ve got PTSD issues. But I still wouldn’t automatically push the guy away without a solid explanation. And I’m actually known for being blunt about things in public. But when you go to some places, including bars, there’s an assumption that it’s a shared space and you treat other people as well as they’ll allow.
Like, if you aren’t willing to be polite and at least explain why a stranger isn’t welcome in your group, maybe a bar isn’t the best place to meet up? Nobody is obligated to welcome them in with open arms if they don’t want to, but you do it nicely because that’s a fellow human being trying to be social and friendly. You say, “hey man, sorry, this is an in group situation, we’re here as an established group doing our thing.” You don’t dis them, you don’t act like they’re bad for looking at you and your group and thinking “maybe those dudes could be cool to hang with”. That’s a good thing if someone thinks you and your crew are interesting.
I dunno, maybe I’m fucking weird, but as much as I hate crowded places, and dislike random contact, I can’t think of a single time where I would have rejected someone without a friendly explanation why.
We gotta be better to each other. We don’t all hang the be friends, but we can be nice about it, can’t we?
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So the girl is wrong for not wanting to be sexually objectified by a random stranger…? If you knew how much women are harrassed and objectified all the god damn time when going out, you would know that being polite to these guys only sends them the wrong signals and makes them think that you are interested and they have a chance, and will make things worse. The core problem with these incel guys is that they feel totally entitled to a womans body and attention. They aren’t! Yes everyone deserves a happy and healthy relationship with others and social connections, but these guys are so bitter that they literally think spending 30 dollars on a beer should give them access to a girl. If they would genuinely want to just have a conversation with them he wouldn’t have drawn the conclusion that he stated at the end. He wouldn’t have to feel that rejected. It’s because he was there especially to find a girl to date, that the girl couldn’t live up to his expectations.
Women aren’t objects to obtain or fuck. And honestly most women get harrassed and stalked and get unwanted attention from men so much that they sense the intentions of these guys immediately.
See, you’re stuck in a bad place.
You not only assume that the person in the text is a bad person, but that I’m also thinking the way you seem to think is the default.
Look, go back and reread what I wrote while assuming the best. That I’m looking at the text with compassion and the goal of not fucking with someone.
Then go back to the original text and look at it without the assumption that the person is acting badly. Look at it with compassion, with the assumption that they don’t know how to interact with people yet. Or look at it from the perspective I wrote from, that if someone approaches your group in a public place, that maybe being nice, being gentle is the way we’re supposed to start out.
You do realize I didn’t mention anything about women needing to be polite to someone hitting on them, right? I mean, the very first line of the comment you’re responding to says “legit though, why be rude to a fellow for rolling up politely as a dude”. That sets the framework for the perspective of the comment. It’s a dude talking about how to treat other dudes that approach your group in public.
We’re talking about two separate things, or that’s my base assumption in this response. That you aren’t just ranting about something random and didn’t read the comment, but that you just missed the first line, or that I didn’t phrase it well enough, and need to explain it better.
See what I mean though? You didn’t even come at this neutrally, you started off with putting words in my mouth (or on my screen, I guess), and I’m still here trying to assume the best instead of just blocking you because you’re off on your own tangent that doesn’t respond to what I actually wrote. I’m being direct, but I’m still (so far) being nice about it instead of just blasting you or otherwise forgetting that you’re human and can make mistakes without intending to be a jerk.
You’re right, I didn’t come at this neutrally. I didn’t get that you were talking from the perspective of being a guy, sorry. I respect that you still try to assume good intentions and you’re right that it will probably get you further than assuming the worst about people. I might have been talking about a different point than you, but my view on that is still the same. I just do not think the guy in question had other intentions than to pick up a girl and I do not agree with his conclusion at the end. The whole concept of the incel mentality is just frustrating to me and I have no idea how to handle that. And yes you’re right, that if the guys were a bit more elaborate on why dude was in the wrong they could’ve helped the dude. I mean he probably doesn’t have friends in the first place which makes it even worse to try and talk to people.
Oh, I’m with you there! Women being treated like not only is their presence permission to hit on them, but that they have to accept it or end up the target of abuse is way out of hand.
A lot of it comes from a lack of guidance, imo. Back in my youth, the shit that was in movies and on TV perpetuated the whole persistence model of romance, and young men never got told that it was not realistic. I knew so many boys and young men that genuinely thought they had to be aggressive (as opposed to just presenting themselves) because there was the idea that women want that. And, yeah some people do value aggression and persistence in their idea of romance, but it’s far from the majority.
It seems that there’s still that false perception, and the only real way to counter it is genuine, direct guidance for people before they internalize it. We gotta teach our kids both directly by explaining what is and isn’t acceptable, and by living that example. For adults, it’s similar. We gotta be direct about explaining to other men (and even women to women) that it just isn’t okay to treat people like a goal, a piece of meat.
So, yeah, I feel you there. The incel as a social phenomenon has to be countered whenever possible. We just can’t let it fester