No we wouldn’t because the solution to the paradox of tolerance is that you can’t be tolerant of intolerance. It’s a social contract, if one party breaks it, the contract is broken.
You don’t have to agree with someone or do what they want, to not shun them. Have you never disagreed with a friend? Did you read the article I linked to?
You’re getting downvoted because you seem to be falling to understand that that guy is exceptional in that he is an exception, not the norm.
You realize it wasn’t that long ago that black people were hanged for as little as looking at a white person the wrong way at times, yes?
Being super nice isn’t a reliable way to accomplish what he has.
Even if it is it’s not an option for everyone. A white guy acting like this towards a KKK member isn’t going to accomplish this. A Hispanic guy doing it is unlikely to change a racist’s opinion on black people.
Your statements come off as Elon Musk telling people to work hard to be rich because it’s happened before.
It may be a useful tool in some circumstances, but one guy, or even a handful of them, does not prove it’s the “best way”.
The first is by definition always an exception. We don’t know if they’re unique, until others try the same thing.
I never said being super nice was the fix. Being a friend is. It’s hard to be bigoted against a group, when one of that group is a good friend. But yes anyone outside the targeted group, won’t be able to have quite the same effect. Those outside the group can be helpful though. If a trusted friend points out your short comings, you’re more likely to second guess them, or at least not take them as far as you might otherwise.
Except in this case others have already tried the same thing with results going from success to death. It’s not unique but it is uncommon. This would speak against it as the “best way”.
It’s hard to convince someone bigoted against you to be your friend. If they won’t be your friend the whole concept fails. This shouldn’t need to be stated.
Often bigots closest friends are also bigots. Again causing issue. If one close friend points out your shortcomings but the others tell you they aren’t shortcomings at all it’s much easier to stick with your comfort zone, as it almost always is. Repeated efforts here cause a friendship to falter, which goes back to what was suggested in the first place, separation.
Friendship works on someone open to it working. Whether they already have that friend or not. You can’t force someone to accept something they don’t want to hear, which is probably the problem you’re having accepting the flaws in your own point of view despite the ways they have been pointed out in other’s comments.
From what I’d read in to, you’re substituting “best way” for “most moral way” without considering that morality is not a standard. To many reducing harm to the masses is far more moral than making friends with bigots. They can, and must, choose to step outside their bigotry in order to leave it behind. Until then they can deal with being on the fringes.
You never offered any information. What evidence suggests I’m not open to it?
In fact, the closest thing to an argument against the idea that anyone made, is that it doesn’t scale well. Which is of course true. But this is about the morality of ways to deal with bigots, not the practically.
Well, I’m glad you at least recognize that your solution to bigotry is not practical. I agree that it’s a moral ideal, but morality to my mind depends at least as much on effect as intention, which is where practicality comes in, and the fact that showing “unearned compassion” to bigots, at least in the way I typically seem to see that interpreted, just emboldens them and makes life worse for everyone else. The most extreme example of this is, as alluded to, Chamberlain’s appeasement of Hitler, but we see the same thing play out on a smaller scale frequently.
Most people who discuss morality with any frequency will probably tell you that whether or not you know the outcome of an action ahead of time does impact its morality. So I would argue, because we know that showing bigots “unearned compassion” rather than societally refusing to tolerate their behavior invariably has a net negative impact on those who are the targets of their bigotry, that would render it not the moral ideal we might like it to be.
I suppose I’m marking a difference between tolerating bigots, and tolerating bigotry. Respecting and accepting people with bigoted ideas, is very different from respecting and accepting the ideas themselves. Part of being a friend, is point out when that friend is being dick. That would still hold true here.
You don’t believe people when they tell you who they are. You imagine their actions and their beliefs to be separate from the individual even though they are the beliefs and actions of the individual. Your idealism doesn’t reflect reality.
You were never apart from society so you are bound by the social contract by default, failure to uphold the social contract will result in the following violence: being put in the corner, being told ‘no’, spanking, detention, suspension, loss of employment, physical violence, police arrest, incarceration, garnishing of wages, loss of access to social services, etc.
That’s an argument to uphold the analogy of a social contract. Basically arguing it’s it fine to be born into a contract you had no choice in. However, that same logic can be used to justify all sorts of terrible things. It goes all the way back to the bible and earlier: Holding the child responsible for the sins of their father.
It doesn’t however directly address my claim of moral high ground, for using what I call unearned compassion to win over bigots.
This isn’t an argument, it’s a fact. The only way to not be part of the social contract is to remove yourself from society, including all of societies infrastructure. You are obligated to support and work within the rules of the society you are a part of. If you object on moral reasons then you can make your attempts to change your society or which society you are part of through whatever means you have access to.
It’s not a contract, because the parties involved didn’t all get a chance to agree to it before hand.
Everyone gets automatic entry and can leave any time they want. If they decide they don’t agree to it there’s nothing keeping them from shrugging off the good graces of society. I think that’s pretty fair.
I was in a very bad spot once and one part of it was due to the so called social contract and the demands it put on me as an individual but when I tried to exit the contract I got forced in ward psychiatric care which kind of negates your argument of there being a choice.
Now a days I still have some issues with the social contract but have other things to live for and have managed to come to terms on how to live with it.
Omfg I knew it would be that guy. He’s the guy your type always reps. Maybe read what black anti racist orgs have to say about him. It’s not nearly as nice as what the KKK says.
No we wouldn’t because the solution to the paradox of tolerance is that you can’t be tolerant of intolerance. It’s a social contract, if one party breaks it, the contract is broken.
It’s not a contract, because the parties involved didn’t all get a chance to agree to it before hand.
The best way to eliminate bigotry, is with unearned compassion. It’s certainly more difficult. But it is the highest moral ideal.
Appeasement. That always works.
I’m not talking about appeasement.
You don’t have to agree with someone or do what they want, to not shun them. Have you never disagreed with a friend? Did you read the article I linked to?
You’re getting downvoted because you seem to be falling to understand that that guy is exceptional in that he is an exception, not the norm.
You realize it wasn’t that long ago that black people were hanged for as little as looking at a white person the wrong way at times, yes?
Being super nice isn’t a reliable way to accomplish what he has.
Even if it is it’s not an option for everyone. A white guy acting like this towards a KKK member isn’t going to accomplish this. A Hispanic guy doing it is unlikely to change a racist’s opinion on black people.
Your statements come off as Elon Musk telling people to work hard to be rich because it’s happened before.
It may be a useful tool in some circumstances, but one guy, or even a handful of them, does not prove it’s the “best way”.
The first is by definition always an exception. We don’t know if they’re unique, until others try the same thing.
I never said being super nice was the fix. Being a friend is. It’s hard to be bigoted against a group, when one of that group is a good friend. But yes anyone outside the targeted group, won’t be able to have quite the same effect. Those outside the group can be helpful though. If a trusted friend points out your short comings, you’re more likely to second guess them, or at least not take them as far as you might otherwise.
Except in this case others have already tried the same thing with results going from success to death. It’s not unique but it is uncommon. This would speak against it as the “best way”.
It’s hard to convince someone bigoted against you to be your friend. If they won’t be your friend the whole concept fails. This shouldn’t need to be stated.
Often bigots closest friends are also bigots. Again causing issue. If one close friend points out your shortcomings but the others tell you they aren’t shortcomings at all it’s much easier to stick with your comfort zone, as it almost always is. Repeated efforts here cause a friendship to falter, which goes back to what was suggested in the first place, separation.
Friendship works on someone open to it working. Whether they already have that friend or not. You can’t force someone to accept something they don’t want to hear, which is probably the problem you’re having accepting the flaws in your own point of view despite the ways they have been pointed out in other’s comments.
From what I’d read in to, you’re substituting “best way” for “most moral way” without considering that morality is not a standard. To many reducing harm to the masses is far more moral than making friends with bigots. They can, and must, choose to step outside their bigotry in order to leave it behind. Until then they can deal with being on the fringes.
I am going to pray nobody takes this idiot seriously
Ad hominem
It would be more effective to explain how I’m wrong. But if you can’t right now, I understand. My comments will still be here tomorrow.
Disingenuous
You don’t seem to be in a state of mind for willing absorbtion of information.
Projection
You never offered any information. What evidence suggests I’m not open to it?
In fact, the closest thing to an argument against the idea that anyone made, is that it doesn’t scale well. Which is of course true. But this is about the morality of ways to deal with bigots, not the practically.
Well, I’m glad you at least recognize that your solution to bigotry is not practical. I agree that it’s a moral ideal, but morality to my mind depends at least as much on effect as intention, which is where practicality comes in, and the fact that showing “unearned compassion” to bigots, at least in the way I typically seem to see that interpreted, just emboldens them and makes life worse for everyone else. The most extreme example of this is, as alluded to, Chamberlain’s appeasement of Hitler, but we see the same thing play out on a smaller scale frequently.
Most people who discuss morality with any frequency will probably tell you that whether or not you know the outcome of an action ahead of time does impact its morality. So I would argue, because we know that showing bigots “unearned compassion” rather than societally refusing to tolerate their behavior invariably has a net negative impact on those who are the targets of their bigotry, that would render it not the moral ideal we might like it to be.
Please observe the paradox of tolerance.
I suppose I’m marking a difference between tolerating bigots, and tolerating bigotry. Respecting and accepting people with bigoted ideas, is very different from respecting and accepting the ideas themselves. Part of being a friend, is point out when that friend is being dick. That would still hold true here.
I see your problem.
You don’t believe people when they tell you who they are. You imagine their actions and their beliefs to be separate from the individual even though they are the beliefs and actions of the individual. Your idealism doesn’t reflect reality.
You were never apart from society so you are bound by the social contract by default, failure to uphold the social contract will result in the following violence: being put in the corner, being told ‘no’, spanking, detention, suspension, loss of employment, physical violence, police arrest, incarceration, garnishing of wages, loss of access to social services, etc.
That’s an argument to uphold the analogy of a social contract. Basically arguing it’s it fine to be born into a contract you had no choice in. However, that same logic can be used to justify all sorts of terrible things. It goes all the way back to the bible and earlier: Holding the child responsible for the sins of their father.
It doesn’t however directly address my claim of moral high ground, for using what I call unearned compassion to win over bigots.
This isn’t an argument, it’s a fact. The only way to not be part of the social contract is to remove yourself from society, including all of societies infrastructure. You are obligated to support and work within the rules of the society you are a part of. If you object on moral reasons then you can make your attempts to change your society or which society you are part of through whatever means you have access to.
Bruh
Everyone gets automatic entry and can leave any time they want. If they decide they don’t agree to it there’s nothing keeping them from shrugging off the good graces of society. I think that’s pretty fair.
I was in a very bad spot once and one part of it was due to the so called social contract and the demands it put on me as an individual but when I tried to exit the contract I got forced in ward psychiatric care which kind of negates your argument of there being a choice.
Now a days I still have some issues with the social contract but have other things to live for and have managed to come to terms on how to live with it.
Omfg I knew it would be that guy. He’s the guy your type always reps. Maybe read what black anti racist orgs have to say about him. It’s not nearly as nice as what the KKK says.