Imagine being an 18yo who sees the genocide, understands the that Israel is in the wrong, and is now forced to join the army that is in the process of a genocide, and immediately receiving a gun. Fucked up situation that might even lead someone to suicide, especially if maybe you are already in a dark place.
My point is that there are IDF soldiers that are absolutely genocidal, the IDF as an army is horrific, but because of mandatory conscription you can’t treat it the same as a voluntary army where people choose to be there (kinda, poverty and propaganda can often make it more complex)
Just as I wouldn’t celebrate the suicide of a Russian just because of what Russia is doing, I wouldn’t celebrate the suicide of an Israeli just because they were forced to join the IDF.
I think that these mindless celebrations of death jist fuel the cycle of hatred. If you support a genocide I have no compassion for you, but a forced conscription is not a choice.
Exactly. The people that are killing themselves are likely the people that had the most capacity for good in they entire establishment. It’s such a sad state of affairs.
Sure, a few months in jail seems like an option, But there are 2 important factors here:
Wether they are going to be combatants or not
The fact that these are young adults / teens in a very normalized situation.
If you are 18yo and fresh out of school, understand that the IDF is in the wrong and condemn it but are now facing the choice between doing what society expects of you and going for 2-3 years of office work at the IDF or go against the law, go to jail for an unknown amount of months and possibly face social consequences, you might choose the office work. It does not obsolve you from all faults, but it does not make you genocidal or a rapist.
This approach of grouping everyone together is just adding more fuel to the fire. Everyone sticks their head in the sand and says “This is the problem, there is no nuance!” And guess what? Sometimes you will be more right and sometimes you will be more wrong, but you will very very rarely be correct.
There is no innocent IDF member, even if they were brainwashed into serving. Just following orders isn’t an excuse, we learned that via the Nuremberg trials.
I feel no sympathy for an IDF member, as I do for the American soldiers in Vietnam. Drafting doesn’t absolve you of war crimes, even if you feel guilty of it. People died, and it’s their fault.
Thats not a good example because in Nuremberg trials they specifically trialed generals and political leaders, which held positions that were directly related to the crimes, I don’t think generals in the IDF are remotely close to innocent.
But by putting a general who planned and executed war crimes and an office worker that maybe was responsible for office supplies in the same category, you are ignoring the reality of the situation and you are harming the severe and important definition of war crimes.
Your blind categorisation is harming your cause, which I assume is justice and protection of human rights and life.
It’s not just jail though. Like any society, their are expectations that come with being a participant in it. Shame, family and pressure make that solution not an easy choice. I get what you are saying, and it’s easy to say that from the outside. History tells us that much baggage comes with going against the norm. Power to you,just realize it has impacts beyond just ‘your’ life. Not saying that is a good thing, just that it is a thing.
Firstly I couldn’t find anything about “gaol” so I don’t know what you mean…
Secondly, armies are mostly non-combatant soldiers, which can range from working on weapons to office workers. As fucked up as the IDF is, if you are forced to join it and become an office worker, you might not be free of fault, but you are far from committing a genocide or murdering babies.
Sure, very convenient for you to find one thing I did wrong and ignore everything else. I’m definitely the one with flawed logic…
I just thought that “gaol” is some hebrew word like idf or kneeset, so I searched with that assumption. Stupid mistake? Sure, does it make me an idiot that can’t have valid opinions? No.
Gonna get downvoted but fuck this.
The IDF is terrible, the Israeli government is terrible, it is genocidal and there is no excuse for that.
Yet, the IDF is mandatory for all 18yo in Israel, meaning that you could be completely against the IDF and the government, and still be in the IDF.
Imagine being an 18yo who sees the genocide, understands the that Israel is in the wrong, and is now forced to join the army that is in the process of a genocide, and immediately receiving a gun. Fucked up situation that might even lead someone to suicide, especially if maybe you are already in a dark place.
My point is that there are IDF soldiers that are absolutely genocidal, the IDF as an army is horrific, but because of mandatory conscription you can’t treat it the same as a voluntary army where people choose to be there (kinda, poverty and propaganda can often make it more complex)
Just as I wouldn’t celebrate the suicide of a Russian just because of what Russia is doing, I wouldn’t celebrate the suicide of an Israeli just because they were forced to join the IDF.
I think that these mindless celebrations of death jist fuel the cycle of hatred. If you support a genocide I have no compassion for you, but a forced conscription is not a choice.
Exactly. The people that are killing themselves are likely the people that had the most capacity for good in they entire establishment. It’s such a sad state of affairs.
Or instead of joining the IDF, you get the jail time of a few months.
But I guess they’re just following orders, so they’re actually absolved of the rape and genocide.
Sure, a few months in jail seems like an option, But there are 2 important factors here:
If you are 18yo and fresh out of school, understand that the IDF is in the wrong and condemn it but are now facing the choice between doing what society expects of you and going for 2-3 years of office work at the IDF or go against the law, go to jail for an unknown amount of months and possibly face social consequences, you might choose the office work. It does not obsolve you from all faults, but it does not make you genocidal or a rapist.
This approach of grouping everyone together is just adding more fuel to the fire. Everyone sticks their head in the sand and says “This is the problem, there is no nuance!” And guess what? Sometimes you will be more right and sometimes you will be more wrong, but you will very very rarely be correct.
There is no innocent IDF member, even if they were brainwashed into serving. Just following orders isn’t an excuse, we learned that via the Nuremberg trials.
I feel no sympathy for an IDF member, as I do for the American soldiers in Vietnam. Drafting doesn’t absolve you of war crimes, even if you feel guilty of it. People died, and it’s their fault.
Thats not a good example because in Nuremberg trials they specifically trialed generals and political leaders, which held positions that were directly related to the crimes, I don’t think generals in the IDF are remotely close to innocent.
But by putting a general who planned and executed war crimes and an office worker that maybe was responsible for office supplies in the same category, you are ignoring the reality of the situation and you are harming the severe and important definition of war crimes.
Your blind categorisation is harming your cause, which I assume is justice and protection of human rights and life.
Oh my bad, I’ll make sure that the people who moved papers covering up war crimes just didn’t follow orders before they go to trial.
It’s not just jail though. Like any society, their are expectations that come with being a participant in it. Shame, family and pressure make that solution not an easy choice. I get what you are saying, and it’s easy to say that from the outside. History tells us that much baggage comes with going against the norm. Power to you,just realize it has impacts beyond just ‘your’ life. Not saying that is a good thing, just that it is a thing.
Your point misses that it is not mandatory and they could instead go to gaol for short period of time rather than commit genocide and murder babies.
Your point is bad and your should feel bad for running defense and trying to paint them as innocent and/or victims.
Firstly I couldn’t find anything about “gaol” so I don’t know what you mean…
Secondly, armies are mostly non-combatant soldiers, which can range from working on weapons to office workers. As fucked up as the IDF is, if you are forced to join it and become an office worker, you might not be free of fault, but you are far from committing a genocide or murdering babies.
You saw a word you didn’t know and you didn’t try a dictionary or search engine?
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=gaol
I did search for it, I guess that I over did the search terms and should have just searched the word itself. Thanks! Word of the day I guess!
If my approach to understanding was so flawed as to fail at looking up a word I would be deeply concerned about the quality of my thinking.
Ignore all the arguments I made and just focus on a single unrelated mistake?
mate, you can’t even figure out what a word means. Everything you believe is suspect if your approach is that sloppy.
Fix your approach to learning, then form opinions.
Sure, very convenient for you to find one thing I did wrong and ignore everything else. I’m definitely the one with flawed logic…
I just thought that “gaol” is some hebrew word like idf or kneeset, so I searched with that assumption. Stupid mistake? Sure, does it make me an idiot that can’t have valid opinions? No.