Nuanced I know, but it also bothers me that the term ‘ebike’ is applicable to both pedal assisted and throttle controlled bicycles.
As you point out, a kilowatt would do quite differently for a cargo bike than a commuter bike. More severe still is the difference between acceleration on a pedal assisted cargo and a commuter with the throttle wide open.
It’s startling how fast some of these bikes can achieve car like speeds.
I’m of two minds on the whole throttle thing. I agree that tooling around on a high-power vehicle without bothering to pedal at all makes a mockery of the notion of it being a ‘bicycle.’ However, I appreciate that my Class 2 cargo e-bike has a throttle because I often blip it when setting off from a stop because it can otherwise be hard to get going before the cadence sensor (on my old bike) or torque sensor (on my new one) has a chance to kick in.
On a related note, I really appreciate that my new bike modulates the power output somewhat based on how hard I’m pedaling rather than treating the cadence sensor as a glorified on/off switch. On the old bike, if you were pedaling, you were accelerating all the way up to the speed cut-off unless you were on a steep hill. With the new one, I can pedal with light or moderate effort in assist level 3 and actually go slower than 20 mph, but still faster than the level 2 cutoff of 8 mph.
Frankly, I would almost be inclined to say that a torque sensor should be a harder requirement for a thing to count as an e-bike than the presence or absence of a throttle (as long as said throttle cuts off at a decently-low speed).
I agree, and think that’s probably the solution to speed demons on ebikes. Modulate the power output on some curve to assist more at lower speeds (not doubling the riders efforts or anything like that) and level off at whatever point is deemed ‘fast enough’. If the rider wants to go faster, no problem, but have it be muscle power, not battery power.
Cargo bikes are certainly a different power curve. Sometimes I get so loaded up on mine it takes halfway to the next light before I can get it out of granny gear. I understand your use case for the throttle here, either getting to a cruising speed, or even just enough so you’re balanced and not wobbling. I’m sure this could be resolved with higher sensitivity on a torque sensor or having a great-granny gear, so to speak.
I had the pleasure of riding a fancy front bucket style ebike for a few hours last year and it had no trouble getting going from a full stop. Damn thing cost more than my car though haha.
What you describe with your old ebike reminds me of the Reevo. It was designed so poorly if you were walking it, the pedals could still turn and activate the power assist and produce a feedback loop that saw the bike take off away from you and into the sunset.
I understand your use case for the throttle here, either getting to a cruising speed, or even just enough so you’re balanced and not wobbling. I’m sure this could be resolved with higher sensitivity on a torque sensor or having a great-granny gear, so to speak.
Kinda, but you’d still have trouble if you forgot to downshift or were trying to start uphill. And since we’re talking about a heavy vehicle used for utility cycling (often carrying kids), you might be in traffic where you need to be able to get moving right now and can’t just pick it up and carrry it to the curb to get out of the way. In that sort of situation, a throttle is a safety feature. It just needs to be designed not to facilitate misuse.
What you describe with your old ebike reminds me of the Reevo. It was designed so poorly if you were walking it, the pedals could still turn and activate the power assist and produce a feedback loop that saw the bike take off away from you and into the sunset.
I knew what video that was gonna be before I clicked it, LOL.
For the record, the bikes in question are the first and second-generation Lectric Xpedition. (Mine unfortunately had a problem that caused it to be replaced under warranty, and they gave me the new version.) The second-gen definitely has some important improvements (notably the torque sensor and a much better kickstand), but the first-gen was still a good bike — nowhere near as bad as a Reevo!
(I’m a big fan of my Lectrics, but damn I wish they’d make an affordable bakfiets.)
Ah you know I didn’t think about uphill starts. It can be a nightmare. I try not to take routes where I could encounter that - though often at the expense of going quite a distance out of my way. Fortunately, most of my hauling around town is pretty flat. To your earlier point, could do with the throttle maybe getting you to adequate speed or engaging for a limited amount of time or something. Having access to unending electric power is something only Thor should possess.
That’s a good deal to get an updated version! So often warranties run out right before something goes wrong, it’s nice to hear an example where it worked out. Kick stand improvement is huge. I broke one on a bike a few months ago and I’ve been struggling to fine something to replace it that’s as capable. It’d be nice to have a double leg kickstand like yours has. Maybe I’ll look into that.
There was an bike shop nearby that got some Yuba Supercargo CL’s and they were accidentally shipped one of the non electric version. I guess Yuba told them just to sell it instead of sending it back because they cut 30% off the MSRP and put it on the floor. I wish I had bought it when I had the chance.
Circling back a bit - only because it seems you will appreciate my distaste - just this morning I saw that the makers of the One Wheel announced their new Antic Bike, an electric take on the 70’s era minibike. There are several things that immediately annnoy me about this thing, but primarily the use of ‘bike’ in the name. It doesn’t have pedals! Without pedals, it’s just an electric scooter. Looks really good design wise, and if I were a millionaire I’d buy two, but holy moly that is the perfect example of the term ‘bike’ being stretched to include everything with two wheels. I can’t deny the wheelie balancing feature looks fun though haha.
Nuanced I know, but it also bothers me that the term ‘ebike’ is applicable to both pedal assisted and throttle controlled bicycles.
As you point out, a kilowatt would do quite differently for a cargo bike than a commuter bike. More severe still is the difference between acceleration on a pedal assisted cargo and a commuter with the throttle wide open.
It’s startling how fast some of these bikes can achieve car like speeds.
I’m of two minds on the whole throttle thing. I agree that tooling around on a high-power vehicle without bothering to pedal at all makes a mockery of the notion of it being a ‘bicycle.’ However, I appreciate that my Class 2 cargo e-bike has a throttle because I often blip it when setting off from a stop because it can otherwise be hard to get going before the cadence sensor (on my old bike) or torque sensor (on my new one) has a chance to kick in.
On a related note, I really appreciate that my new bike modulates the power output somewhat based on how hard I’m pedaling rather than treating the cadence sensor as a glorified on/off switch. On the old bike, if you were pedaling, you were accelerating all the way up to the speed cut-off unless you were on a steep hill. With the new one, I can pedal with light or moderate effort in assist level 3 and actually go slower than 20 mph, but still faster than the level 2 cutoff of 8 mph.
Frankly, I would almost be inclined to say that a torque sensor should be a harder requirement for a thing to count as an e-bike than the presence or absence of a throttle (as long as said throttle cuts off at a decently-low speed).
I agree, and think that’s probably the solution to speed demons on ebikes. Modulate the power output on some curve to assist more at lower speeds (not doubling the riders efforts or anything like that) and level off at whatever point is deemed ‘fast enough’. If the rider wants to go faster, no problem, but have it be muscle power, not battery power.
Cargo bikes are certainly a different power curve. Sometimes I get so loaded up on mine it takes halfway to the next light before I can get it out of granny gear. I understand your use case for the throttle here, either getting to a cruising speed, or even just enough so you’re balanced and not wobbling. I’m sure this could be resolved with higher sensitivity on a torque sensor or having a great-granny gear, so to speak.
I had the pleasure of riding a fancy front bucket style ebike for a few hours last year and it had no trouble getting going from a full stop. Damn thing cost more than my car though haha.
What you describe with your old ebike reminds me of the Reevo. It was designed so poorly if you were walking it, the pedals could still turn and activate the power assist and produce a feedback loop that saw the bike take off away from you and into the sunset.
Kinda, but you’d still have trouble if you forgot to downshift or were trying to start uphill. And since we’re talking about a heavy vehicle used for utility cycling (often carrying kids), you might be in traffic where you need to be able to get moving right now and can’t just pick it up and carrry it to the curb to get out of the way. In that sort of situation, a throttle is a safety feature. It just needs to be designed not to facilitate misuse.
I knew what video that was gonna be before I clicked it, LOL.
For the record, the bikes in question are the first and second-generation Lectric Xpedition. (Mine unfortunately had a problem that caused it to be replaced under warranty, and they gave me the new version.) The second-gen definitely has some important improvements (notably the torque sensor and a much better kickstand), but the first-gen was still a good bike — nowhere near as bad as a Reevo!
(I’m a big fan of my Lectrics, but damn I wish they’d make an affordable bakfiets.)
Ah you know I didn’t think about uphill starts. It can be a nightmare. I try not to take routes where I could encounter that - though often at the expense of going quite a distance out of my way. Fortunately, most of my hauling around town is pretty flat. To your earlier point, could do with the throttle maybe getting you to adequate speed or engaging for a limited amount of time or something. Having access to unending electric power is something only Thor should possess.
That’s a good deal to get an updated version! So often warranties run out right before something goes wrong, it’s nice to hear an example where it worked out. Kick stand improvement is huge. I broke one on a bike a few months ago and I’ve been struggling to fine something to replace it that’s as capable. It’d be nice to have a double leg kickstand like yours has. Maybe I’ll look into that.
There was an bike shop nearby that got some Yuba Supercargo CL’s and they were accidentally shipped one of the non electric version. I guess Yuba told them just to sell it instead of sending it back because they cut 30% off the MSRP and put it on the floor. I wish I had bought it when I had the chance.
Circling back a bit - only because it seems you will appreciate my distaste - just this morning I saw that the makers of the One Wheel announced their new Antic Bike, an electric take on the 70’s era minibike. There are several things that immediately annnoy me about this thing, but primarily the use of ‘bike’ in the name. It doesn’t have pedals! Without pedals, it’s just an electric scooter. Looks really good design wise, and if I were a millionaire I’d buy two, but holy moly that is the perfect example of the term ‘bike’ being stretched to include everything with two wheels. I can’t deny the wheelie balancing feature looks fun though haha.