Lower, middle, and upper class is such an antiquated way of dividing people into groups to keep them at odds with each other.
The fact of the matter is, there are truthfully only two classes. The working class, and the capital class. 95-99% of individuals fall into some strata of working class. If you earn a wage, a salary, or a commission in order to purchase basic necessities- you are working class. If your money makes you money simply by existing, and your assets passively appreciating in value mean that you do not have to work for a living in order to buy basic necessities, then you are in the capital class.
Let the Leftist infighting commence!
pretty much. this entire thread is just folks arguing over the meanings of middle class, and most of them denying it exists as if that is going to create class solidarity. it won’t. majority of posters probably are middle class folks who would never in a million years associate with truly working class people. esp because the working class is typically conservative and doesn’t have liberal/progressive values, at least in the USA.
Middle class, at least the income bracket that was middle class has been butchered.
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If you don’t work with your hands but still need to work, you’re middle class, no?
plenty of manual laborers make bank dude. a lot of office workers barely make a living wage.
it’s more about your wealth, education, and lifestyle, not your the type of work you do.
how expensive it is to be poor
For anyone that needs the read, Terry Pratchett said it so well it is an economic theory now, the Boots theory.
The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. … A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. … But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that’d still be keeping his feet dry in ten years’ time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.
This was the Captain Samuel Vimes ‘Boots’ theory of socio-economic unfairness.[4]From Men at Arms by Sir Terry Pratchett
Also, a history of “people don’t want to work” bullshit going back to 1894: https://thunderdungeon.com/2024/07/14/nobody-wants-to-work-anymore/
People don’t want to work and are lazy is a bullshit talking point even older than 1894.
The first ever modern self-help book ever published (literally called self-help) was made a man with a lifelong history of business and financial failure and yet also still believed that it was no legislation or social assistance, but personal ‘morals’ and ethics are what gets people out of poverty and into comfort.
It was bullshit then and bullshit now. It is such a dark realization that what causes so much quality of life increases is not productivity or technology but legislation and policy.
If you don’t have the poverty scar on one, or both, of your arms, I don’t want to hear shit about what you have to say on the topic of poverty.
If you don’t know what the poverty scar is, and you live in the US, then I will just assume you’ve never actually struggled, nor been around those who do.
Are you gatekeeping poverty?
I’m pointing out a major, physical, sign that someone is, or has, struggled with poverty and knows first hand how hard that is.
I see way too many “hot takes” on how poverty works from people who don’t have the scar, or even know what it is. To me, that’s a big red flag that they don’t know wtf they’re talking about as they haven’t experienced it.
Generalizing things never work well.
I presume you are referencing people who donate plasma as frequently as possible to earn extra money to survive?
apparently you’re not in poverty if you donate plasma? that’s a new talking point.
pretty sure tons of people in poverty aren’t donating plasma and plenty of people who aren’t in poverty are doing it.
Opposite of that. People who have been in poverty for a long time know that plasma donation is one of the ways to keep the lights on or be able to afford food that week. After repeated donations, you are left with a buildup of scar tissue.
Those who haven’t suffered in poverty may donate occasionally for a few extra bucks, or just for the sake of doing it. But only those who are doing it constantly, twice a week, every week (that’s the maximum) for a long period of time will develop a scar.
Bingo
I dont have a poverty scar but I know what it looks like… also I have been to the US. In many circumstances it is actually hard for me to believe that is the richest country on earth.
Because middle class is used wrong in North America.
Poverty class is simple, you don’t have enough to live.
Labor class is divided into three;
Low labor, your barely paid enough to scrape by.
Middle labor, your paid enough for your work to live.
High labor, you’re paid well for your work. Perhaps you own your own small business.
Middle class, you aren’t paid a wage or salary anymore, you’re income comes from the things you own. As rich as a politician or nobility but not much political power.
Upper class, in old Europe this would be the nobels. Duke’s, Earls, Lords, that type of stuff. In modern north America this would be the ultra rich. You have political power and you own a lot of stuff. This is where most representatives are.
Politician class, former Royal class. You rule, extreme political power and wealth.
Most people in North America think they’re in the middle class when really they’re in the Labor middle class, it’s very different
Even well paid doctors are labor class mostly. Because even in the past doctors weren’t as well paid as today.
most doctors come from wealthy families. and if you are anything above a PCP, you’re making like 300K+ a year, you’re not labor class. you’re part of the 1%. yeah being a resident and an intern sucks balls, but you’re taking a short term low age for a long term massive payoff.
80% of med students come from families making over 200K a year. that’s a hard fact.
most of us who grew up in middle/lower class families never even dreamed of being a doctor because we knew it was basically impossible for us without rich parents to help pay the bills for med school.
Working class is everybody who must work to live.
Wealth class is everybody else.
There is no such thing as a middle class, that is a lie. Everybody seems to think they’re in the middle class, because that puts somebody below them, and gives them a reason to continue working under wage slavery. This is the purpose of the lie.
The fun thing is that everyone thinks they are middle class. When I was making €45k a year I thought I was middle class because I had an university degree and a leadership position. At the same time my boss, who had just spent €5mio acquiring a 50% share in a second company and owned three houses (two of which he rented out) also considered himself middle class because he wasn’t a billionaire.
because middle class is good and noble.
being poor or wealthy means you’re an asshole and is considered shameful.
hence everyone is desperate to claim they are not rich and desperately afraid of being seen as poor by people richer than themselves.
I once had a friend, which gf had to send him like 10Euro per month, for him to get monthly more than minimal wage which was considered “middle class” for some fucking reason in this country.
He was so emotional about this shit, that I am still not sure if he was for real about that or not…
for some fucking reason
I’m very curious what the reason is
I bet it’s for their bank. At least in Europe, many banks charge for your account if your income is below a threshold. My partner can’t work full time so I send them like 50€ per month so that they don’t have to pay bank fees. Which is ridiculous, as we have our 3 accounts all at the same bank.
Nah, he was too young and student too, so not bank income tax yet.
He just wanted to feel better than those “bottom class losers”. And I do not joke. He study economics.
He study economics
Checks out
A better metric is homeownership to me. Someone who is middle class is secure and doesn’t have to rent nor pay debt. They only really have to work when it’s mutually beneficial. That is basically impossible to achieve in the modern world with the hundreds or thousands of micro taxes and cartel controlled corporate markets and complete lack of land for the lease it’s to live on without virtual indentured servitude. Even if you did spend your entire life buying a house the state would just take it away from your children with the brutal taxation. Without a home you are always going to be a slave and have to work at any shitty job just to have food and a roof over your head.
no.
plenty of people rent their entire lives are fine. and plenty of people own homes get them foreclosed because they can’t afford the payments, or buy too much house.
owning a home isn’t really a huge economic benefit or security, unless your house massively goes up in value. a house is also a huge liability if it has problems. home owning nearly bankrupted my family at one point because of the crazy expensive repairs.
Even if you own the house and land outright, you still need to pay real estate taxes, and feed yourself. Either you have the money in the bank to cover those expenses for the rest of your life or you don’t. You can have unexpected medical expenses, houses require maintenance which is generally expensive, and transportation is still an issue.
If you have to work to live, you are working class. Full stop.
People can inherit a house and still be poor. Look at india
If you’re going to talk about class society, you might as well use the Marxist terms: proletariat, petit-bourgeoisie, and bourgeoise.
That used to be true, pre-1980’s, when the middle class was way, way bigger than it is today.
There is no middle class. There are only working class and wealth class. Just because you are high earner in an office job doesn’t mean you’re not working class.
Where is the line though? Many people that could be considered middle class are realistically rich enough to never have to work again if they didn’t want to. But they want their flash cars and private school for the kids so they do need to work to keep that level of luxury. Even if they could still live comfortably without working.
If I was to start van living (hard as I can’t drive) and rented out my house I wouldn’t have to work another day in my life. Does that make me part of the wealth class, despite having always been at/close to minimum wage? Getting enough rent to pay for my mortgage and leave me with many hundreds extra would not be difficult. Go for a HMO and turn the living space into more bedrooms like a standard scumlord would possibly even leave me with over £1000 a month. The only work I would have to do is paint over some mould occasionally.
pretty easy. if you had a million in the bank at 4% return you’d have a income of 40K a year. if you could live on that income you’d be all set and not have to work.
so scale that up a bit, say 5 million in the bank at 5% return, that would be an income of 250,000K a year.
but the issue is people’s spending scales with their income/wealth, and most people spend more than they make so they are constantly seeking greater wealth.
Right, but someone living comfortably on the interest of £1m, are we really calling them part of the wealthy class, but not someone who works for a 6 figure salary and has more wealth than the first guy while living in more luxury?
it’s relative to where you live and your lifestyle expectations.
where i live people make 300K a year and feel impoverished. if you go three hours away, making 30K a year is a good salary.
I make 150K a year, so to 25 year olds working for 15/hr i’m rich. but to many of my peers i’m living in poverty because I don’t have ten million in the bank.
there are some objective measure, for sure, but people’s lifestyles are radically different. the MIT cost of living calculator for my city is like 80K, but most everyone who lives here would consider that a poverty level wage.
I don’t know why everyone is avoiding the Marxist terms, as they are far more accurate than low/middle/upper or whatever people are talking about in this thread.
Those wealthy workers are petit-bourgeoisie. They own enough capital so that they no longer have to struggle in the rat race of capitalism, but not enough to be controlling entire industries or multibillion dollar companies like the bourgeoisie.
Initially wanted to say petit bourgeoisie isn’t the right term here but now the more I think about it, yeah?
It doesn’t really fit the normal examples of petit bourgeoisie but economically I think they are in the same place even if they are not small business owners or sole traders.
I thought petit-bourgeois made their money through assets? So they aren’t workers. High earners are still proletariat if they are selling their labor.
Where is the line though
The line is “do you need to work ever to maintain at least the current living standard”. That’s the division between working class and wealthy class.
If I was to start van living (hard as I can’t drive) and rented out my house I wouldn’t have to work another day in my life
Not maintaining at least current living standard.
Yup. Our family grew 5 years ago so we needed a bigger house. Well, didn’t “need” but would have to remodel the old to accommodate. We were within our means before moving. Still are in the new house but budget is a lot tighter than it was in the bigger house. Didn’t realize until hindsight that “bigger house, bigger (more expensive) problems” would occur.
We could move again and make a good profit on the house now, but I see it as an asset for future income down the road, although as my parents and aquantisces parents age, I’m learning more and more that at least in the USA, they take everything you’ve worked for away from you once you can slave no more. I’m going to do my best to protect my assets for my family before it comes to that.
Hopefully you at least have a will, but I would urge you to look at establishing a living trust as well.
Yeah, both are on the list but kids take a lot of time away! We have a hefty life insurance policy right now at least. I know trust needs established for at least 5 years to be considered enforceable.
A retiree couple that scrounged up enough to have ~$50k yearly budget for the remainder of their days falls into your definition of wealthy, and I would argue that doesn’t line up. They are not, in fact, wealthy. The ‘line’ is far less clear than that.
So if I was already living in a van I would be wealthy?
When compared to other people living in vans? Absolutely.
Yeah, I think people who say that don’t realize a few key things.
First, they don’t understand the ‘poverty tax’ - how not having money for things like a security deposit, reliable transportation, or bulk buying actually costs you more in the long run.
And second, they don’t see how thin the margin for error is for most middle-class families. One medical bill or job loss is all it takes to fall behind.
Earn 3 times the amount of a proposed rent? You’re golden.
Earn below 3 times the amount of a proposed rent (but still enough to pay it each month)? Now you have to pay a guarantor to back you up. Last estimate I got was $800 for that service. You’ve gotta pay that before a landlord will accept you.
So if you earn less, you’re forced to pay more. It’s so fucking backwards.
Source: currently homeless, on numerous “waitlists” for low-income apartments that can take years to get through, housing lotteries that have 10s of thousands of people also hoping for a home, and attempting to scrounge the bottom of the barrel with tiny studio apartments (which, even if I apply to immediately, I’m behind others who somehow got to them faster.)
The system is absolutely fucked. I’m just grateful I enjoy my job (which, yes, I work full time, and earn above minimum wage for. Modern US society has no mercy for any of us.)
They also don’t understand that the impact of the “lazy poor” is exaggerated by the rich to turn your attention away from The Big Theft.
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Middle class IS below the poverty line.
The poverty line is a number made up by the wealthy to keep the “less poors” at odds with the “more poors” So that we don’t join forces and guillotine the motherfuckers.
Yeah, we do a lot of inner fighting and it is difficult to get through it. I even find myself getting frustrated at people, who earn twice as much as me, complaining about how they live paycheck to paycheck. The cost of living is not high here (and I save a lot myself), and I think about the wealth I could build if I had their income; basically I think, “why are you complaining??” But we have to remember we are on the same team. We are all ultimately getting screwed over by the owner class.
a lot of people are just idiots who don’t understand that money in has to be less than money out.
i’m not on their team. like I’m sorry you chose to be a bicycle mechanic because you think it’s ‘cool’ and you only make 30K a year, but if you choose to spend 20% of your yearly wage on traveling each year… and whine about how poor you are, you’re just an asshole. nobody is forcing you to spend 6000 traveling, you choose to do that and you choose to keep yourself poor by not saving and investing in yourself and/or seeking a career that offers better wages. even more so when you shit on other people who have better jobs than you for being ‘rich boring losers’. i won’t even go on about the ‘artist’ crowd I’m all too familiar with.
a lot of idiots love to be miserable and glorify their self-imposed poverty. no matter their income level. i’ve dated doctors who made 500K a year who did nothing but complain about how poor they were.
That guy earning twice as much as you is still far closer to you than to the guy above him. He may make twice the amount as you, but the guy above both of you makes literally 400 times as much (per day sometimes). It’s like you said, we’re all on the same team.
There are conventional definitions of the poverty line. In France, it is defined by the national institute of statistics as:
The poverty threshold is conventionally set at 60% of the population’s median standard of living. It corresponds to a disposable income of €1,288 per month for a single person and €2,705 for a couple with two children under 14 years old. https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5759045
There’s the Working class, who can’t live in society without trading their time for money in some way, or being given charity. And the Capital class, who can live in society without doing either.
I will add this to my vocabulary as I find it captures the issue in an easy to understand way.
Thanks, viewing it this way really puts retirement into perspective as well. The big promise of modern capitalist countries is that if you, the Worker, take 25% of your paycheck every day for 40 or 50 years and pump it into the stock market, that perhaps you’ll be able to live in the capital class (aka off money you already have) at an extremely low level for a while right before you die. That’s really all we’ve been promised and what a lot of people dream of as the peak achievement. Trading half your waking life away for decades to someone who is making more off your work than you are making, so that just maybe, if the market is good at the right time, you get a tiny taste of how the owners and investors have been living this entire time before you die.
