• stray@pawb.social
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    1 day ago

    Can a nation be considered to have achieved communism when it still has a hierarchy?

    • [object Object]@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      The Soviet Union didn’t even claim to have achieved socialism. Their ideology was that they were supposedly constantly working towards that.

    • dogbert@lemmy.zipOP
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      2 days ago

      Communists are not people that practice communism (not possible yet), they are people trying to achieve communism as an end goal.

      • acargitz@lemmy.ca
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        2 days ago

        And shitty communists go around purging other communists in kangaroo courts and show trials.

        Shitty communists impose cults of personality and destroy workers democracy.

        Shitty communists also refuse to learn from a century of shitty communism and still cling to old categories as if they have any meaning today. I mean you can stan Robespierre all you like but in the end of the day, the 1871 Commune was never going to be run by 1789 Jacobins much less fucking bonapartists.

          • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            1 day ago

            Pretty telling that this is how you chose to reply to this. Just ignore everything they said I guess, huh?

            • dogbert@lemmy.zipOP
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              1 day ago

              Dont be an insufferable weirdo if you wanna have a discussion. Speaking to people this way doesn’t work in real life and I’d like to extend that courtesy to online spaces too.

          • acargitz@lemmy.ca
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            2 days ago

            Well, your toothbrush is gross and your toes smell like canola oil.

    • Ferrous@lemmy.ml
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      2 days ago

      The final goal of communism is a worldwide, stateless, classless, moneyless society.

      This has obviously never been achieved, but the socialist and communist factions that use Marxism Leninism to work toward this goal are still nonetheless communist.

    • lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      2 days ago

      Communism in the Marxist sense isn’t about abolishing hierarchies. When they say they want a stateless society, there will still be oppression but executed by workers which is much besser. Source: read Das Kapital or something. I’m not a Marxist, what do I know

      • The Quuuuuill@slrpnk.net
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        38 minutes ago

        you actually have this backwards. communism in a marxist sense is hierarchiless as described in das kapital. however the bosheviks broke from the larger communist movement because the mensheviks (the larger of the two factions of russian communists) advocated for building a larger and larger coalition that could create durable anti-authoritarian change in russia. lenin believed in vanguard party politics, that it would be better to do the overthrow of the capital class first, and then slowly cede power to the workers. unfortunately in the first elections under bolshevik control the workers didn’t vote how lenin had assumed they would and he ceased democratic elections in soviet russia. following a series of strokes, power was not slowly ceded to the workers, rather, stalin manipulated petty beurocratic power in order to consolidate, rather than disperse, power. ultimately, much like the french revolution, what happened was the typical revolution cycle:

        1. things are bad
        2. the people revolt
        3. two parallel movements develop representing either a coup by power or a great societal reform
        4. the coup by power faction consolidates a core faster and takes over
        5. the great societal reform faction is purged as counter-revolutionary
        6. the driving force behind the coup by power faction goes mad with power and dies
        7. in the vaccuum of power a new cult of personality arises in which a previously mostly ignored person takes full control and re-establishes the old order with himself at the head and the only real change is the aesthetic of the imperium.

        in france, the result was a totalitarian authoritarian regime “liberating” europe. in russia it was a totalitarian authoritarian regime “liberating” the workers.

        to get an idea of who the bolsheviks really were look at how quickly they abandoned leftist unity to purge the anarchocommunists from eastern europe. these were people they, allegedly, shared ideals with and had been fighting to free the serfs alongside up until the moment they could purge the anarchocommunists in order to consolidate personal power at the top of the hierarchy.

        tl;dr marxism is without hierarchy, marxist-leninism is very much with hierarchy