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As somebody who lives in a town with a shitload of those scooters I can say it’s slightly rarer for a pickup to simply ram itself though a crowd of people in the arrogant assumption they’ll move out of the way.
But did you die .gif
I’d argue having electric vehicles harassing pedestrians on the sidewalks and trails contributes to the number of cars on the road as it makes walking or taking a pedal bike anywhere even more inconvenient, the opposite of what we need.
We need decent bike lanes or large multi-use paths that allow for all micro mobility.
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It makes walking hazardous and annoying. I’ve had to jump out of the way of scooters before and it made walking suck. This pushes people to drive more.
If someone wants to ride an electric scooter on the sidewalk in the suburbs where sidewalks are often empty, and take special care when there is a person walking, that’s fine. But in an area where sidewalks are completely full of walkers, like in a city center, electric scooters are a nuisance.
If it makes you feel any better, someone tried doing this to me while they were on a scooter.
Unfortunately for them, but lucky for me, I can’t feel that side of my body… so I knee jerk threw out my arm, effectively close lining him.
Due to my slight limp, it did not go well publicly for the guy on the scooter, as most the crowd were insisting I press charges for assault for him speeding down a busy sidewalk. Suffice to say, despite the bruises, I didn’t really feel it, so I didn’t press charges and said we all make mistakes just be more cautious.
They don’t get their asses beat?
For as much as I like about living in a friendly tourist town, no the people here are a touch too civilized to assault a high school over a scooter accident.
You gonna punch a truck?
In my experience cars do that all the time, and the only reason it doesn’t happen more is because all our laws and infrastructure has been built to ensure that cars get absolute priority. Let’s be clear, the reason we are having this debate is because 90% of our transport corridors have been surrendered to only cars, while the rest of us are left squabbling over the few tiny un-prioritized slivers that aren’t blocked by yet more cars. We need wider footpaths, and wider better cycle lanes to allow e-scooters to travel at higher speeds. This space is avalible by slightly shrinking the traffic lanes.
Scooters go where people walk… trucks usually don’t
Whew! It’s a good thing trucks never go through cross walks or across curb cuts to get into parking lots and drive throughs.
The only reason people ride scooters on the sidewalks is because our infrastructure is severely lacking and you get stuck “sharing” a lane with a 6000+lb truck.
You aren’t wrong and neither are they.
Stop that! You get outta here with that rational approach
I mean it’s /fuckcars on Lemmy. There are more extremist places you can find on the interweb, but not many.
across curb cuts to get into parking lots and drive throughs.
Generally not faster than scooter speed anyway though.
And they don’t like to share. I had to flip off a driver for almost running me over today
Damn. Wish there was a way to have separate lanes or something
Still, bike lanes have a speed limit of 25 km/h where I live
but you don’t even need to be particularly swole to reach 30 km/h on a bicycle, how does that work then? Do they arrest people without speedometers on their bikes?
Generally that rule is not checked nor enforced.
okay so it’s just not actually a thing in practice then, not sure why bring it up in that case?
They should, yes.
In Belgium those require a drivers license, and your license can be revoked.
Not in my city. It is illegal for motorized vehicles of any kind to travel on sidewalks.
It’s illegal here as well, they just do it anyways
Reminds me of this guy: https://youtu.be/bzE-IMaegzQ
People are forbidden from going where the trucks go… or that seems to be the popularly agreed upon arrangement.
Rly?
Key word being “usually”
Every time you drive from home or to home is unusual?
I think here they’re talking usually in the sense of space, the vast majority of your time is spent on roads.
Is it just me, or does this thread feel unusually hostile towards scooters for being in fuckcars?
Right? The scooters are only in the sidewalks because the cars actively make the roads dangerous for them. But here we are in a place that supposedly hates cars defending them against a very useful replacement for a huge amount of people.
My city has a pretty good protected bike lane network, and a result is you rarely see scooters or bikes on the sidewalks (at least in the parts of town with good protected bike lanes). Instead, you get lots of scooters and bikes zipping safely by without endangering pedestrians. At least on my route to work, I’m about 90% sure there are more commuters in the bike lanes than cars on the road, despite the cars getting 90+% of the road space.
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I frickin love protected bike lanes. Turns a stressful experience into a downright pleasant one. It feels 10000x safer than riding on streets without protection.
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You should still wear a helmet. It isn’t there for cars, it’s there because going from biking speed to no speed is more than enough acceleration to cause injury.
They need the same infrastructure that bicycles and have gotten popular really fast. Since the infrastructure cannot accomodate them (no bike lane), the scotters become a nuisance for everyone.
With proper infrastructure though (cycling lanes and parking spots) they are fine. (Some might argue about users not following the rules, I’d say, sometimes you can’t respect the rules because the street is shit).
Also private companies monopolising public space, not cool. (that one I still stand by, and I hope they pay “rent” that goes towards maintaining the roads.)deleted by creator
I suspect there is a bit of a compounding effect with renting the scooters (more prevalent where I live), which makes users less respectful. Or a novelty effect with teenagers rushing past on their new toy. In my experience that wears out fast, though.
I guess even here some forget that you can put the scooters on bike lanes :)I just googled a bit and one claim I saw was that about a third of accidents involve first time riders.
Same here, my town simply has multi-use paths basically on every other street and the only problem i see with e-scooters is that for some inscrutable reason people insist on parking the rental ones literally in the middle of the road???
It’s incredibly strange because they don’t even park them near a destination, literally just in the middle of nowhere…
But other than that people behave really well, and it makes me smile so very much to see families where the kids have their own bikes and e-scooters and the parents are riding rental ones, the added convenience of e-scooters has absolutely gotten more people out of their cars and actually experiencing the world and interacting with people around them.
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That and the assholes who just dump them in the middle of what little infrastructure we do have. Around here they are constantly blocking sidewalk, bike lanes, and mixed use paths.
Around here they are constantly blocking sidewalk
All city needs to do is to put giant “put ebikes here” sign over on-street vehicle storage spot(in car-dependent places it’s called parking spot). One such spot can store 10-20 ebikes or 20-30 escooters.
it’s so fascinating how people absolutely lose their minds over e-scooters, and these are people who shit on drivers for doing the exact same thing to cyclists!
Yeah I hate these scooters even with good infrastructure (Germany) people still can’t stop themselves from basically trying to run you over and when they are not in use they are usually left in a place (sidewalks, pedestrian paths etc) that blocks pedestrian traffic. Not to mention the people taking shitload of this stuff into the public transport and making it even more crowded.
Never had a driving license, can’t be bothered with it when public transport gets the job done.
I remember this happening often in college where some bikers were just an absolute menace and you had to get out of dodge quickly.
people taking shitload of this stuff into the public transport
They’ve fixed that around here (Spain) after a couple got a battery fire in a metro car: escooters are banned from public transport.
Luckily bikes are not, which only take up like 5 times the space 🤷
But like people don’t ride them badly here, so clearly that’s a solvable problem. I’d wager germany generally doesn’t actually really have that good bicycle infrastructure.
As for them being left all over the place, that’s a regulation problem specific to rental scooters, and doesn’t apply at all to privately owned ones but people like you just ignore that completely.
Also like, you’ve seen where people park their cars, right? a car in the middle of the bike path is vastly more annoying than an e-scooter.Calling problems “solvable problems” or “regulation problems” does not make them go away they are still problems associated with e-scooters. I always hear good stuff about Germany’s bicycle infrastructure but I guess it is suddenly bad when it is covenient for you to make your point.
Of course a car parked on a bike path is more annoying than e-scooters I’ve never said e-scooters were worse than cars, but still I find them extremely annoying as a person that is travelling mostly on foot.
Probably because these scooters compete with bikes for the space thats left over.
If there’s not enough space in the bike lane for bikes and scooters, that’s only a reason to build more and bigger bike lanes.
no they don’t, what kind of logic is that? By that logic cyclists should hate other cyclists too.
More people using bike infrastructure is great, it makes it visible and increases the likelihood of more money being spent on it.
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Sorry about your circle jerk
One of these share footpaths with pedestrians. The other two have to use their own dedicated pathways.
And also speed restrictions.
E-scooters shouldn’t be sharing the footpath, they should be in the cycle lane with other similar vehicles.
If they exist. I took a multi mile bike ride today and aside from the occasional bike gutter there were none
More like they ban pedestrians from their pathways.
One of these
Oh, really?
Yeah, in general. Cars are not allowed to drive on sidewalks under most if not all circumstances. The point is that e-scooters have their restrictions for a reason, regardless of any whataboutism relating to cars. We want walkable cites, not e-scootable.
No clue what that street sigh means, but I guess it’s supposed to signify a shared space?
Speak for yourself. I want cities that are not dependent on cars. Walkable is the ideal, but cycling and scooting is an upgrade from cars.
if not all circumstances.
Not all. All cars can drive across sidewalk.
The point is that e-scooters have their restrictions for a reason, regardless of any whataboutism relating to cars.
I mean if sneezing at running speed of physically unfit person is so terrible, then why the fuck cars are not hardlimited to 10 km/h?
No clue what that street sigh means, but I guess it’s supposed to signify a shared space?
Kinda (article from where I took sign). Here it means transit traffic(driving through) is not allowed, speed is limited to walking speed(which in my country defined as 20km/h) and vehicles should yield to any pedestrians. Usually it is placed around micro-district where internal roads are connected to two or more city highways.
Not all. All cars can drive across sidewalk.
Only at specific points where a car crossing a sidewalk is expected, such as a turn in to a driveway, or an active emergency that would require the car to cross onto the pavement. Drivers can’t just yeet themselves across the pavement for no reason.
I mean if sneezing at running speed of physically unfit person is so terrible, then why the fuck cars are not hardlimited to 10 km/h?
Because drivers have to go though training and always have the potential of having their license revoked. Not anyone can just walk up to a car dealership and walk out with a car and no understanding of road law. Divers can just be trusted more than people using other modes of transport, which is why they get to move faster.
And again, whataboutism. Being the lesser of two evils is not the same as being acceptable.
In denser commerical areas, up to and even exceeding 50% of the sidewalk space can be driveways and entrance ways for cars. Add that many of this style of road can be 4+ lanes and 60+ km/h traffic. There is a lot of potential conflict areas, drivers often enter these driveways exceeding speeds safe for pedestrianized areas and these roads are designed for drivers to see other cars, not notice pedestrians.
As for trusting drivers due to their “training” most drivers are taught once while they are a teenager/young adult, pass some short practical tests (maybe 1 hour total time of testing) and are now trusted for a lifetime of driving. They never get retested despite change in driving laws, car technology, changes to their physicsl or mental health, or time since their last test. Driving infractions are paid off by monetary fines and not dealt with by mandated retraining courses.
The existence of a driver’s lisence as proof of a safe driver means very little to the cyclist who got hit by a right turning vehicle thhat vehicle did not check their mirrors for a clear bicycle gutter.
Only one of these is often ridden on footpaths and walking areas.
The limit makes sense.
Another bullshit cars are evil post that just ignore facts and reality.
Cars can somewhat be evil but if you want to capture the attention of people you’ve go to post well considered arguments.
Not crap like this.
These devices probably cause < .1% of fatal pedestrian accidents and are electronically speed-limited, meanwhile for the device that causes 99% you put the responsibility of keeping speeds safe in the hands of individuals ranging from considerate over careless to outright methheads.
is often ridden on footpaths and walking areas
Why could that be? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that those are the only places where said 99% mode of transport responsible for 7,500 pedestrian deaths a year is banned and streets, where e-scooters should normally a go in cities, are designed for 2.5 tonne cars going 40?
The limit makes sense.
I mean yea, it does, but it is in essence just another concession to car dependency. Can’t curb pedestrian deaths because infrastructure is dogshit, drivers are careless and cars become more and more unsafe? Just regulate the hell out of every means of transport other than the one causing all the deaths and make getting from a to b as hard as possible for everyone not driving. Helps to a) blur the blame and cause some infighting (for instance, this post) and b) getting more people in cars must mean fewer pedestrian deaths right?? also more cars sold and no expensive infrastructure changes. Phew.
So how is it not a valid argument? It’s blatantly obvious that if cars were invented right now, with models as they are right now, safety concerns would be through the roof and they’d be regulated to hell and back with electronical speed-limits just like e-scooters are right now. The only reason cars are not limited in such a way is because they are a legacy device, part of America’s cultural identity and with a uncontrollably powerful lobby behind it so any attempt in that regard would immediately lose you public support. You’re asking for more well considered arguments, but I’m wondering what your argument is that cars should not be speed limited, other than that’s just the way it is, let everything concede to the status quo?
Note that cars are heavily regulated, have speed limits, collision regulations, are required to only operate on designated paths and require training to operate.
Meanwhile the scooters can be used by anyone without licensing, have no speedometer, and can go anywhere without a pedestrian even having a clue a scooter might be coming.
Things could be better, but in these areas frankly an even lower speed limit would not make cars that much safer, and you’d be better off without roads in some areas and poof, cars would be gone. However electric scooters would still be zipping around.
These devices probably cause < .1% of fatal pedestrian accidents
Percentage is meaningless without context. The stat you’re actually looking for is pedestrian deaths per mile. And it’s probably quite bad for these vehicles because they explicitly commingle with pedestrians.
Cars don’t spend very much time on parts of roads that have pedestrians on them, and when they do, there’s signage or traffic lights to help. Cars also have lights to help drivers see pedestrians and help pedestrians see cars, and generally make a lot of noise. You get none of these benefits with personal motorized vehicles. (Well ok, a scooter probably comes with some lights, but they’re probably also small and shitty and unregulated, so they don’t really count…)
While we’re wildly speculating I’m going to guess that most e-scooter crashes are caused by a car running them over.
I don’t get the comingling thing. Where I live they’re on the bike lanes. Is that uncommon?
Is actually agree with that, but given how careless scooter riders are in my area in laying the blame almost 100% on them.
From what I’ve witnessed they’re often arrogant and pay little attention to their surroundings, often having close calls simply by shooting off a path to cross a road without paying attention.
I’m neutral on cars vs other modes of transport, so I’m not trying to favour one side or another, but each user or group has to take responsibility for their shortcomings, and the number of bad acting scooters is cyclists as a percentage of their respective groups is far too high.
I’d trust a car driver to be attentive more than I’d ever trust a scooter rider or cyclist.
Simply from my own observations.
Inattentive car drivers kill people. Inattentive scooter and cyclists get themselves hurt (in general). A world without cars is simply a safer world.
And with proper infrastructure the cyclist/scooter problem virtually disappears. People moving fast obviously have to be separate from pedestrians. If all the space wasn’t taken up by cars that would be easy to do as well.
Not everywhere has bike lanes and then they are on the sidewalk, not to mention most laws allow them to be on the sidewalk or bike lane if they exist.
Hm, well, that’s an infrastructure problem. I definitely think they should be in the bike lane.
Only one of these is often ridden on footpaths and walking areas.
It’s all of them.
Key word here is “often”
Every time you drive from home or to home is not often? Well, agreed, this is not often, this is always.
I couldn’t care less if e-scooters gain more traction but I do care if a completely unprotected vehicle can go at speeds where either the driver/rider or a pedestrian can get killed or seriously injured in the event of an accident and those have already happened where I live, with a large proportion going towards recklessness of the driver/rider.
These vehicles have been recorded travelling down highways, criss-crossing traffic, cutting in front of busses, etc, often with very gory results for every part involved.
We do not need more blood on the streets.
In Germany they’re limited to bicycle infrastructure and neither sidewalks nor highways are that, 20km/h (hardware limit, 12.4274mph in colonial units), no license but minimum age is 14, same DUI laws as for cars, and you need insurance. Which, granted, is quite cheap at 30-60 Euro a year and comes with a cute little license plate in fashionable colours (as in: changes every year). There’s also some signalling requirements mostly mirroring bikes, minimum standards for brakes, such stuff. No regular technical inspection, though.
The morale? If you want to go fast get a bike 30km/h aren’t that hard.
Do the police actually speedcheck you? It’s also 20km/h maximum in Sweden, but the police haven’t stopped me yet when I routinely go 35+ for many years now.
Driving faster would mean unlocking it which means it’s not street-legal any more which isn’t much of a fine, 70 Euros, but it also means that the insurance is invalid which means up to one year prison/fine and might cost you your driving license.
They really went all-in on the insurance thing because apparently people behave like pedestrians with the thing, but at bicycle speeds and above which isn’t a good mix.
The police here caught a guy going 70km/h on a heavily “optimized” scooter recently. He admitted that he didn’t know how fast he went, as the speed indicator only goes up to a speed of 30km/h.
I’m a bit to the south! Hello from Portugal!
We allowed those contraptions with the same restrictions as bicycles but because the tourist industry is wild here, they became sort of a fever and soon we were having people modifying those things to reach 80km/h or more.
Accidents have been crazy and bloody.
e-kickscooters, e-bikes and pedelecs can actually go faster here, but they would need to be classified as motorscooter/moped (<45km/h, drivers license, operating license, no use of sidewalks or bike lanes, mandatory helmet) or motorbikes (motorbike license, registered plate not just insurance plate, mandatory inspections)
20 is pretty slow, that’s going to cause conflicts with cyclists that want to go 30.
Cyclists wanting to go 30 clash with the majority of cyclists, we’re used to it. The outdated infrastructure doesn’t help, either, some of it is literally the ~50cm asphalt lanes Nazis more or less painted on sidewalks to get bicycles off the streets, “to not hinder progress”. Luckily you’re not required to use them if they’re intolerable, which they generally are. Especially in Hamburg. The kind of annoying thing is that the large concrete pavers they used for the sidewalk actually do last ages, even roots pushing them up don’t really do damage pedestrians would care about, and many municipalities bill property owners for street refurbishments and politicians don’t want to face pitchforks or change the statutes (and spend municipal money) so nothing gets done.
Not so much with ebikes, although I understand that those are also hobbled by speed restrictions. It seems ironic that the country of unlimited speed limits for cars has such slow speed limits for safe transport, but I guess that’s what carbrained thinking does
Fast ebikes are classed as mopeds as such you’ll have to use the roads and are banned from bicycle infrastructure. Pedelecs are classed as bikes and they’re not limited to 25km/h, they just won’t assist past that point. And frankly e-scooters at 20km/h are already plenty fast with those tiny wheels, ideally you don’t want to drive faster than you can sprint and while athletes are faster (Usain Bolt sprints 44km/h), 20 is a good estimate for your average moderately out of shape human.
What’s actually nuts about the speed limits 45km/h for mopeds and the like. 50km/h is ordinary city speeds and having people drive just a bit slower is inviting all kinds of unnecessary take-over manoeuvres.
Also just for completeness’ sake there’s plenty of speed limits for cars, also on the Autobahn, only about 57% are unlimited, 13% switch back and forth, unlimited doesn’t mean unlimited and the safety record isn’t bad in comparison to other countries. It could be improved but whether more limits would help is questionable.
I drive a scooter and don’t own a car. But this is the sort of braindead post that will likely drive me to block this community. It’s an embarrassment to anybody who can think logically.
It’s also frustrating because it directly undermines the cause. There is absolutely more reliance on cars than there should be. There absolutely are more people buying big trucks than need them. There are so many valid arguments to make, so many thoughtful points to bring up.
But if the arguments and content being presented are factually incorrect, if they contain erroneous arguments or irrelevant comparisons, then it’s easy for people who don’t agree with the entire premise to just dismiss it as nonsense. This convinces no one, and worse, it may actively convince people that people who want to reduce usage of vehicles are stupid.
Our society has a problem with making everything absolutes. Trevor Noah had a great comment once about this where he brought up cats vs dogs and he asked why society suggests we have to pick one and can’t just like both.
Because of that, any dissent or criticism is seen as being against something. You think nuclear energy should be encouraged? Clearly you just want to drill for more oil and spew as much carbon as possible! You think this meme is an utterly illogical and dishonest comparison? Well clearly you must support the ubiquity of oversized cars with poor efficiency, and you don’t think our cities need more transportation options or walk ability!
All of this is to say, you’re right on the money. We have to call out bullshit like this when we see it on “our side” and criticize it as ridiculous. We need to recognize that OP is well intentioned, but this is a nonsensical/extreme take. Extremism forms when these people don’t get called out and a group chastises internal criticism.
It’s also dumb because there’s no way that 6800 pound truck is going 0-60 in 4 seconds. They even put a slower time on the allegedly 400lb-lighter truck with more horsepower. If I’m wrong about that guesstimate, then oh well, the big trucks are stupid anyway.
Both of the trucks have a 0-60 time of 4.5 seconds apparently. The heavier truck being an EV is why it can match the other due to having full torque available and not needing to shift.
OK wow, that’s absurd. Thanks
Then use a fucking ebike? Motorized vehicles dont belong on sidewalks, period. How the fuck are people gonna walk to work in a BUSINESS DISTRICT if there’s scooters saturating the sidewalk?
They have to go on bicycle lanes and streets (where there is no bicycle lane) here in Germany. Makes sense tbh. Cars should be slowed down to 30km/h in settlements though imo. Going on a 50km/h street is neither safe for bicycle, nor e-scooters, nor for crossing pedestrians.
And they are great ways of transportation. Grant us public transport users so much more independency.
They should introduce enforced signal lights though (only some have them). That is my only real concern here. Signalling with the arm is just not safe on a e-scooter.
By banning cars in the city and rallocating freed space to ebikes. Oh, sorry, this is harder than rocket science for you.
Wankpanzers vs actually suitable last-mile vehicles.
I’ve been hit by people on Escooters 3 times in the last 4 years.
If you wanna add speed controls to cars fine, but I think the ones that cohabit the sidewalk that people are routinely driving drunk as fuck can absolutely stay speed locked.
Where’s the guy that got hit by the vehicles on the right? Maybe there’s a reason that perspective isn’t being heard.
if you want to add speed control to cars fine
I’m literally not arguing against speed controls on cars. You can tell that by reading.
I’m saying I ALSO appreciate the mechanisms on scooters helping to keep me, as a pedestrian safe.
What is wrong with your brain that makes these mutually exclusive propositions?
I never said they were mutually exclusive. I’m just saying everyone is sharing some bad experience with scooters but the other side of the coin has been silenced.
Though I will say that I live in a city with plenty of scooter use and I can’t think of a time it’s been a major issue. Meanwhile cars and trucks threaten my life on a daily basis.
The other side of this conversation has been “silenced”?
This is literally the fuckcars community.
There aren’t two “sides”. That’s my point. Considering them as opposing positions is what demonstrates that you and others are considering them as somehow related, somehow in conflict. It’s you seeing an argument where none need exist.
You don’t have to un-govern scooters to govern cars.
You can say “I think we should limit the velocity of any vehicle that operates in proximity to pedestrians to a degree to keep them safe”.
That’s what I want. Where is the argument? Are we on different “sides”??
They’re implying that people who got hit by one of the other two vehicles in the image are not alive anymore to comment about getting hit by it, hence they got silenced.
Bro the other side is dead. Pull your head out of your ass lmfao
Bunch of crabs arguing against other crabs in the comments rather than reclaiming the seas for ourselves.
it’s gonna be hilarious in a decade when all these trucknuts types have to give up their giant jacked up shitmobiles. vroom vroom while you can children.
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depressingly plausible.
Not to mention trucks have fewer regulations put in place. Car companies can make higher margins by selling those instead so they are pushing them really hard. What we need is more regulations put on larger vehicles, but you bet they are lobbying hard against that.
What makes you think that would happen? There won’t be any laws in the USA to ban gasoline or diesel vehicles in your lifetime.
Bet you a soda you’re wrong. Writing’s on the wall chudly, your vroom vrooms are gonna go byebye one day. It’ll either be through regulation or lack of fuel availability, or the mobs that tear you out of your fucking cavemanmobile and beat you to death for continuing to make the atmosphere unlivable. Take your pick.
That’s funny. Last time I checked Rolling Coal was still a thing.
Guess there still some time left.
compensate while you can. if that’s what gives you joy I can see why the world ending for everyone else is an attractive thing.
Not to detract from the idea that trucks are dangerous (they most definitely are) but I’m not sure this is the best argument for this. An asshole in a truck doesn’t mean they necessarily will drive their truck down the sidewalk like what is common with assholes on two wheels. 4 wheels will do many other dangerous things. but assholes who ride their two wheels on sidewalks going top speed even at 15 without making room for pedestrians is a valid concern.
It’s also primarily an issue of lacking infrastructure. Two wheeled assholes wouldn’t be on the sidewalk if there was a bike lane, unless they’re huge two wheeled assholes.
100% this, the only time I ride my ebike on the sidewalk is when there is no bike lane or separate bike path. Cause if I have to choose between riding on a 45 mph road or the sidewalk I’m gonna pick the sidewalk and just go slower when pedestrians are around.
I unapologetically ride my bike on the sidewalks because I don’t want to die. I’m careful not to hit anyone and would love for protected bike lanes to be put in everywhere
Just wait for the EV Escalade where the fucking thing weighs in at 9000lbs…
Cars rarley drive on the sidewalk though.
