But Palestine and especially the Hamas are also denying Israel their right to be an independent country. The Hamas is also denying Jews in general their existence and wants to eradicate them, how does this work in your equation?
The conflict between Israel and Palestine is the real one and worth solving, but the Hamas is nothing more than a terror organization.
I agree. Hamas is an intractable bad actor. To get reconciliation between the populations, we need to have both populations engaged in a hopeful future, so that most of the population does not support religious extremists violent bad actors. We have to make Hamas the worst option for the general population, not the best.
Israel and Palestine both exist on the same land. There’s no solution that’s going to make everybody happy. In an ideal world they’d both have their independent territory split, and let bygones be bygones. But that’s not the world we live in.
If Palestine can’t have its own land, then I see the only tenable solution is integration between the populations. You can’t have an effectively imprisoned population and expect stability.
Honestly, I blame the British. Their long history of drawing lines on maps, the local people be damned, has been the source of lots of conflict.
Other potential options I see: a UN military force maintaining a separation between the populations, and a road to independence.
A secular government, from all religions, being the administrative head of the entire territory, and then religious governments for subregions to represent their direct populations. Something like the state model in the United States.
I agree on most points with you. But don’t forget we had the UN draw a line between both countries and declared their independence. The answer was a declaration of war to Israel, which they actually won and which resulted in an enlargement of the territory of Israel, which I don’t call fair or helpful in this conflict but understandable from the point of the “winner”…
I blame both sides for their actions but as long as the Hamas or the Hisbollah exist I can’t see any chance for peace and I really can’t blame Israel for fighting against terrorists. And please don’t forget the Hamas is also very responsible for the death of civilians in Palestine, this is actually part of their strategy and very welcomed by their leadership. Civilian casualties are always welcomed by terrorists because they create anger, desperation and rage and fuel their shameful cause even further.
A lot of these discussions get bogged down about who is right, who is wrong, who is morally justified. It doesn’t matter at the nation state level.
I’m not familiar with the UN enforced independence, I do know the UN secured the Gaza Egypt border for a period of time.
There are intransigent bad actors on both sides, religious extremists on the Palestinian side, and agitating settlers on the Israeli government side. So no matter what happens, there’s always going to be bad activities, that’s going to spark up more bad blood at the population level.
Hamas, absolutely wants to create civilian casualties on both sides, because it helps their recruitment, helps reinforce their mission, draws an attention internationally, gets them funding and weapons. Give us money look we stir shit up, we could stir shit up for you.
So going back to the real politic, the current situation is not going to be resolved with a military incursion on either side. I’m not sure who benefits from this situation long-term, but when both parties just keep repeating previous actions, they’re stuck in a loop.
Perhaps this latest activity Will be used to depopulate Gaza migrating everybody to the West Bank, we’re then hamas’s political power would be diminished. I think that would spur a lot more violence, but maybe clearing Gaza is more important than the violence. I’m not sure.
It could be so simple. Eradicate the degenerated Hamas, create a demilitarized zone between both countries, accept the other countries existence and independence and then fuck off and live happily in your part of the country.
The whole history is extremely complicated, at the end of the preemptive 6 Days war, the country of Israel had the West Bank and the Gaza strip and other things. And they offered to return it in exchange for peace from their neighbors. The neighbors refused, so the country of Israel refused to return the territory.
I believe the camp David accords made a similar offer to the people of Palestine, we will give you this land, and exchange for an agreement of peace. But the people of Palestine or at least their political leaders, wouldn’t agree to seceding all of their other land. Much like the American Indians don’t agree to secede land for any price in the United States politically.
This isn’t a justification, it’s just a summary of the complex history to this point as I understand it. Maybe the path forward is not to get a peace agreement before giving independence, independence plus economic support plus trade buys more forgiveness than being held hostage. Making people economically reliant on each other has historically been the way to guarantee peace
But Palestine and especially the Hamas are also denying Israel their right to be an independent country. The Hamas is also denying Jews in general their existence and wants to eradicate them, how does this work in your equation?
The conflict between Israel and Palestine is the real one and worth solving, but the Hamas is nothing more than a terror organization.
I agree. Hamas is an intractable bad actor. To get reconciliation between the populations, we need to have both populations engaged in a hopeful future, so that most of the population does not support religious extremists violent bad actors. We have to make Hamas the worst option for the general population, not the best.
Israel and Palestine both exist on the same land. There’s no solution that’s going to make everybody happy. In an ideal world they’d both have their independent territory split, and let bygones be bygones. But that’s not the world we live in.
If Palestine can’t have its own land, then I see the only tenable solution is integration between the populations. You can’t have an effectively imprisoned population and expect stability.
Honestly, I blame the British. Their long history of drawing lines on maps, the local people be damned, has been the source of lots of conflict.
Other potential options I see: a UN military force maintaining a separation between the populations, and a road to independence.
A secular government, from all religions, being the administrative head of the entire territory, and then religious governments for subregions to represent their direct populations. Something like the state model in the United States.
I agree on most points with you. But don’t forget we had the UN draw a line between both countries and declared their independence. The answer was a declaration of war to Israel, which they actually won and which resulted in an enlargement of the territory of Israel, which I don’t call fair or helpful in this conflict but understandable from the point of the “winner”…
I blame both sides for their actions but as long as the Hamas or the Hisbollah exist I can’t see any chance for peace and I really can’t blame Israel for fighting against terrorists. And please don’t forget the Hamas is also very responsible for the death of civilians in Palestine, this is actually part of their strategy and very welcomed by their leadership. Civilian casualties are always welcomed by terrorists because they create anger, desperation and rage and fuel their shameful cause even further.
A lot of these discussions get bogged down about who is right, who is wrong, who is morally justified. It doesn’t matter at the nation state level.
I’m not familiar with the UN enforced independence, I do know the UN secured the Gaza Egypt border for a period of time.
There are intransigent bad actors on both sides, religious extremists on the Palestinian side, and agitating settlers on the Israeli government side. So no matter what happens, there’s always going to be bad activities, that’s going to spark up more bad blood at the population level.
Hamas, absolutely wants to create civilian casualties on both sides, because it helps their recruitment, helps reinforce their mission, draws an attention internationally, gets them funding and weapons. Give us money look we stir shit up, we could stir shit up for you.
So going back to the real politic, the current situation is not going to be resolved with a military incursion on either side. I’m not sure who benefits from this situation long-term, but when both parties just keep repeating previous actions, they’re stuck in a loop.
Perhaps this latest activity Will be used to depopulate Gaza migrating everybody to the West Bank, we’re then hamas’s political power would be diminished. I think that would spur a lot more violence, but maybe clearing Gaza is more important than the violence. I’m not sure.
It could be so simple. Eradicate the degenerated Hamas, create a demilitarized zone between both countries, accept the other countries existence and independence and then fuck off and live happily in your part of the country.
The whole history is extremely complicated, at the end of the preemptive 6 Days war, the country of Israel had the West Bank and the Gaza strip and other things. And they offered to return it in exchange for peace from their neighbors. The neighbors refused, so the country of Israel refused to return the territory.
I believe the camp David accords made a similar offer to the people of Palestine, we will give you this land, and exchange for an agreement of peace. But the people of Palestine or at least their political leaders, wouldn’t agree to seceding all of their other land. Much like the American Indians don’t agree to secede land for any price in the United States politically.
This isn’t a justification, it’s just a summary of the complex history to this point as I understand it. Maybe the path forward is not to get a peace agreement before giving independence, independence plus economic support plus trade buys more forgiveness than being held hostage. Making people economically reliant on each other has historically been the way to guarantee peace
Israel purposely helped Hamas to power so there would be no moderate Palestinians to foster a peaceful solution.