Just lovely how everybody is forgetting that Hamas is responsible for this all. They can end it any time they want, release the hostages and surrender, but they chose not to.
Prior to early October, Israel was completely out of Gaza, and was not attacking Gaza whatsoever, so no they weren’t killing them long before they took hostages.
Also the entire siege is about trying to force Hamas to give up hostages. That is literally the reason it is being done. Hamas also has massive food, water, and fuel stockpiles they refuse to share with the people they “govern”
I urge you to get your source not from literally the entity being excused of genocide (or its direct allies e.i. US news outlets). they have enough money to throw so much propaganda at you that you would never believe anything else.
from one online stranger to another: using and citing sources as such is an instant discredit.
I’ll look up any data you want, if you’ll acknowledge that without the Iron Dome, casualty comparisons would be wildly different.
I have severe issues with some of Israel’s past actions. The invasion of Gaza in the teens was an incredibly poor choice. Hamas has bombed Israel 7,000+ times in the last 2 weeks, Israel just has top tier defenses against rocket attacks
That doesn’t make what they’re doing now wrong, or give Hamas a leg to stand on.
I wonder what the US would do if the Mexican government launched 7,000 missiles at us.
Why are you still talking about the last two weeks when the entire point of this discussion was about what happened before October? Just say that you only discovered this issue two weeks ago if that is the case, which is getting to be pretty obvious if we are being honest here.
You want me to acknowledge that more missiles would have hit Israel in the last two weeks if Israel didn’t shoot down those missiles? Yeah, no shit. Do you think that proves a point? Israel has very little to fear from Gaza, we already knew that.
Just lovely how everybody is forgetting that Israel is responsible for that.
Everyone can always blame someone else, especially in this conflict. It’s time for Israel to grow up and take responsibility for its actions. They have caused harm, anger, and hatred by using terrorism (fear and violence) to enforce their rule over people. Somehow we (the US and most of the west) provide them with resources and weapons though. How fucked up is that?
Then by that logic it’s fair game for native Americans to start cleansing all European bloodlines in the United States? As a Latino person, I can go into any southwest state and start killing my neighbors because their ancestors “caused harm, anger, and hatred by using terrorism (fear and violence) to enforce their rule over people”?
But they’re STILL causing them harm and anger and using terrorism, right now, actively, even before the 7th of october, it’s been ongoing for over 75 years, it hasn’t stopped once, its been happening everyday in Gaza and the West Bank (where Hamas isn’t), besides the fact that the occupation power very explicitly stated its intentions of basically deleting every single Palestinian, even before the 7th of october.
other than the starvation and thirst they’re forcing onto them, they keep bombing civilian buildings, they bombed multiple medical centers including a hospital where over 1000 people (injured civilians from the occupation’s bombings), over half of which were children, toddlers, and babies died.
Article 8, section 2.b:
2.b.i. Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;
2.b.ii. Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which are not military objectives;
israel is committing war crimes and being praised and supported for it.
nothing justifies the intentional or unintentional killing of any civilians, children, women, or men, EVEN IF THE ENEMY WAS KILLING CIVILIANS TOO!
Let’s also not forget that israel is one of the largest and most powerful military entities in the world, supported by even larger military powers, going against this tiny patch of land called Gaza, where the people there have been continually oppressed for over 75 years, Hamas’s homemade mortars dont do nearly as much damage as israel’s US-made targetted missiles, and it’s obvious from the fact that no building has been brought down in israel by Hamas, while Gaza is being basically flattened as we speak.
No, dude. I’m not saying what Hamas is doing is “fair game”. I’m saying Israel has a responsibility in it, and they aren’t handling it well. In the past, I totally understand native Americans killing settlers, especially on their land that was promised to them in treaties that they agreed to when moving. Present day, this stuff isn’t happening. If anything, we’re trying to make up for those actions that we now see as a mistake. In present day Israel though, they’re actively performing those actions that cause the inhabitants to feel the need to fight back.
Also, not a tanky. Not everyone who disagrees with Zionism is anti-semitic or a tanky. Grow up and try to come up with an actual reasonable argument.
Hamas has launched in the realm of 7000 rockets at Israel civilians since October 7. But hey, keep blaming it all on Israel. Lets make antisemitism cool again, you are doing your part already.
And as always: Propose an alternative to how Israel should defend itself instead. Still haven’t heard anybody give one and it has been weeks.
Commiting genocide against a civilian population is not self defense. How can you read an article like the OP and just be completely empty inside? How broken are you?
An alternative? There are infinite. They can start cooperating and make a good will gesture of returning occupied lands back to the Palestinian people. They can stop colonizing and murdering innocent civilians (which isn’t only just now happening, it’s constant in occupied lands). They can loosen restriction on travel between Gaza and Israel.
The solution is to improve relations with the people. Attacking them and killing civilians only causes more hate, which causes more violence. It isn’t defence. It’s genocide. They get Hamas to attack and they get to kill more Palestinians.
They never tried that. They have been constantly expanding colonies and murdering civilians in occupied lands. The whole nation started with just some Jews colonizing the territory, and it was made official after that when they knew there was no stopping it (not that they would anyway). They did reduce their harm for a period, but they never really tried to do good.
Isreal is indiscriminately bombing civilian/Palestinian population centers and diving people out of their homes.*
A 48 hour WW2 era artillery barrages would flatten the Gaza Strip. Believing that Israel is “indiscriminately bombing” the strip requires you to believe that they’re the most incompetent military force to have ever walked the planet.
They clearly have a regard for civilian casualties. That’s why they haven’t hit some mosques, schools and other buildings that are known to be seats of Hamas’ power.
That’s probably what they would like to do in their fantasies – make Gazans gtfo from that general area – but given their inefficiency of doing it, I don’t really know what’s going on. You don’t “ethnically cleanse” a rapidly growing population of 2 million by killing a few thousand here and there.
Their birth rate is about 24/1000, so about 50000 new children are born there every year.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say showing these pictures. What is the context? How many terrorists and terrorist equipment was destroyed? Why did Israel attack these areas? Do you know any of these things?
Propose an alternative solution if you don’t like what IDF is doing, since otherwise all you are doing is nothing more than revoking their right for self defense.
Because Hamas’s stated purpose is to destroy Israel, and they knew their attack would be met with reprisal, so they took hostages as human meat-shields
Just lovely how everybody is forgetting that Hamas is responsible for this all. They can end it any time they want, release the hostages and surrender, but they chose not to.
“Look at what you made me do!”
Hasn’t Israel been killing them since LONG before they took hostages? Why would release them suddenly make it stop?
Prior to early October, Israel was completely out of Gaza, and was not attacking Gaza whatsoever, so no they weren’t killing them long before they took hostages.
Also the entire siege is about trying to force Hamas to give up hostages. That is literally the reason it is being done. Hamas also has massive food, water, and fuel stockpiles they refuse to share with the people they “govern”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-gaza-photos-show-half-million-liters-of-fuel-held-by-hamas/
Also they’re using that fuel to power the ventilation systems in their tunnels that run on generators
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-770123
I urge you to get your source not from literally the entity being excused of genocide (or its direct allies e.i. US news outlets). they have enough money to throw so much propaganda at you that you would never believe anything else.
from one online stranger to another: using and citing sources as such is an instant discredit.
I’m gonna go ahead and keep listening to the people who aren’t literal terrorists.
well then, again, I urge you to change your sources if you don’t want to listen to terrorists
You get that the history of Israeli and Palestinian relations goes back further than October of this year, right?
Yep.
How many Palestinians did the IDF kill in an average year before October?
I’ll look up any data you want, if you’ll acknowledge that without the Iron Dome, casualty comparisons would be wildly different.
I have severe issues with some of Israel’s past actions. The invasion of Gaza in the teens was an incredibly poor choice. Hamas has bombed Israel 7,000+ times in the last 2 weeks, Israel just has top tier defenses against rocket attacks
That doesn’t make what they’re doing now wrong, or give Hamas a leg to stand on.
I wonder what the US would do if the Mexican government launched 7,000 missiles at us.
Why are you still talking about the last two weeks when the entire point of this discussion was about what happened before October? Just say that you only discovered this issue two weeks ago if that is the case, which is getting to be pretty obvious if we are being honest here.
You want me to acknowledge that more missiles would have hit Israel in the last two weeks if Israel didn’t shoot down those missiles? Yeah, no shit. Do you think that proves a point? Israel has very little to fear from Gaza, we already knew that.
I think your mind is made up based on bad information, and that 99% of how much you care is for clout, hoenstly
Everyone can always blame someone else, especially in this conflict. It’s time for Israel to grow up and take responsibility for its actions. They have caused harm, anger, and hatred by using terrorism (fear and violence) to enforce their rule over people. Somehow we (the US and most of the west) provide them with resources and weapons though. How fucked up is that?
Then by that logic it’s fair game for native Americans to start cleansing all European bloodlines in the United States? As a Latino person, I can go into any southwest state and start killing my neighbors because their ancestors “caused harm, anger, and hatred by using terrorism (fear and violence) to enforce their rule over people”?
How are you tankies this fucking dumb?
But they’re STILL causing them harm and anger and using terrorism, right now, actively, even before the 7th of october, it’s been ongoing for over 75 years, it hasn’t stopped once, its been happening everyday in Gaza and the West Bank (where Hamas isn’t), besides the fact that the occupation power very explicitly stated its intentions of basically deleting every single Palestinian, even before the 7th of october.
other than the starvation and thirst they’re forcing onto them, they keep bombing civilian buildings, they bombed multiple medical centers including a hospital where over 1000 people (injured civilians from the occupation’s bombings), over half of which were children, toddlers, and babies died.
and to top all of that off, from https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml
Article 8, section 2.b: 2.b.i. Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;
2.b.ii. Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which are not military objectives;
israel is committing war crimes and being praised and supported for it.
nothing justifies the intentional or unintentional killing of any civilians, children, women, or men, EVEN IF THE ENEMY WAS KILLING CIVILIANS TOO!
Let’s also not forget that israel is one of the largest and most powerful military entities in the world, supported by even larger military powers, going against this tiny patch of land called Gaza, where the people there have been continually oppressed for over 75 years, Hamas’s homemade mortars dont do nearly as much damage as israel’s US-made targetted missiles, and it’s obvious from the fact that no building has been brought down in israel by Hamas, while Gaza is being basically flattened as we speak.
Do some research before posting online.
No, dude. I’m not saying what Hamas is doing is “fair game”. I’m saying Israel has a responsibility in it, and they aren’t handling it well. In the past, I totally understand native Americans killing settlers, especially on their land that was promised to them in treaties that they agreed to when moving. Present day, this stuff isn’t happening. If anything, we’re trying to make up for those actions that we now see as a mistake. In present day Israel though, they’re actively performing those actions that cause the inhabitants to feel the need to fight back.
Also, not a tanky. Not everyone who disagrees with Zionism is anti-semitic or a tanky. Grow up and try to come up with an actual reasonable argument.
Hamas has launched in the realm of 7000 rockets at Israel civilians since October 7. But hey, keep blaming it all on Israel. Lets make antisemitism cool again, you are doing your part already.
And as always: Propose an alternative to how Israel should defend itself instead. Still haven’t heard anybody give one and it has been weeks.
Why did you start counting at October 7th? Palestine, Hamas, and Israel have existed much longer and been in conflict much longer.
Last I saw, which was before this conflict, Israel has killed 27 (I think, maybe 23 or something around there) Palestinians for every Israeli killed.
Is that a reliable figure?
It was UN data. I assume it’s as reliable as it can be. I’ll try to find it again.
Edit: 22.4x here.
All right, thank you for the source. It indeed seems reliable.
What happened in 2014 and 2018?
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Yes.
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Commiting genocide against a civilian population is not self defense. How can you read an article like the OP and just be completely empty inside? How broken are you?
For one, they don’t.
And as always: Propose an alternative to how Israel should defend itself instead. Still haven’t heard anybody give one and it has been weeks.
But keep listening to that Hamas propaganda it’s totally not rotting your brain away.
An alternative? There are infinite. They can start cooperating and make a good will gesture of returning occupied lands back to the Palestinian people. They can stop colonizing and murdering innocent civilians (which isn’t only just now happening, it’s constant in occupied lands). They can loosen restriction on travel between Gaza and Israel.
The solution is to improve relations with the people. Attacking them and killing civilians only causes more hate, which causes more violence. It isn’t defence. It’s genocide. They get Hamas to attack and they get to kill more Palestinians.
They tried that, didn’t work, each time they were meet with more Hamas terrorism. What’s your second suggestion from the pool of infinite alternative?
They never tried that. They have been constantly expanding colonies and murdering civilians in occupied lands. The whole nation started with just some Jews colonizing the territory, and it was made official after that when they knew there was no stopping it (not that they would anyway). They did reduce their harm for a period, but they never really tried to do good.
They did, in the Gaza Strip which has no colonies, self rule and the 1967 borders. In the mid 2000s. They evicted every Jew from the Gaza strip
What’s your second suggestion from the pool of infinite alternative? Or are you already out of ideas?
Only Hamas is doing that, though.
Isreal is indiscriminately bombing civilian/Palestinian population centers and diving people out of their homes.*
What Isreal is doing absolutely falls under the category of genocide.
Kill civilians is indefensible.
A 48 hour WW2 era artillery barrages would flatten the Gaza Strip. Believing that Israel is “indiscriminately bombing” the strip requires you to believe that they’re the most incompetent military force to have ever walked the planet.
When I say “indiscriminate” I mean “disregard for civilian casualties” not “random bombings”.
They clearly have a regard for civilian casualties. That’s why they haven’t hit some mosques, schools and other buildings that are known to be seats of Hamas’ power.
These two things are mutually exclusive
You’re "um ackshually"ing genocide. Reconsider your life.
I don’t support genocide in any way, shape, or form, but rather don’t buy into the narrative that Israel is at all committing genocide.
There’s lots to be upset with Israel about without exaggerating to literally the worst thing possible.
https://www.youtube.com/live/xfc0nHLgDuY?si=8P-MddAIFXsFt-mA
They’ve been bombing civilian centers that they know are predominantly of Palestinian ethnicity.
They’ve been evicting people from their homes based on ethnicity. The law gives Isrealis preferences in land disputes.
And now they’re telling everyone in Gaza to abandon their homes.
These are three different actions.
WhyI see your confusion now.
They’re doing the latter because of the former, not as an organized and permanent method of displacement.
Hamas attempts to pen people in with threats of violence (and acts of violence) in an attempt to maximize civilian casualties as well.
https://lemmy.world/comment/4827329
Some helpful watching
https://www.youtube.com/live/xfc0nHLgDuY?si=8P-MddAIFXsFt-mA
Would you prefer we call what Israel is doing ethnic cleansing instead?
That’s probably what they would like to do in their fantasies – make Gazans gtfo from that general area – but given their inefficiency of doing it, I don’t really know what’s going on. You don’t “ethnically cleanse” a rapidly growing population of 2 million by killing a few thousand here and there.
Their birth rate is about 24/1000, so about 50000 new children are born there every year.
This is over just 11 days and is about a week old. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/middleeast/satellite-images-gaza-destruction/index.html
Tell me again how you don’t ethnically cleanse again??
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I have no idea what you’re trying to say showing these pictures. What is the context? How many terrorists and terrorist equipment was destroyed? Why did Israel attack these areas? Do you know any of these things?
“Stop making me murder you!”
“Stop defending yourself while I murder you”
Propose an alternative solution if you don’t like what IDF is doing, since otherwise all you are doing is nothing more than revoking their right for self defense.
Evil is as evil does. There is never a justification for attacking civilians.
Israel doesn’t give two shits about the hostages. If they did they wouldn’t keep bombing where they are being held.
Why did they take hostage?
Because Hamas’s stated purpose is to destroy Israel, and they knew their attack would be met with reprisal, so they took hostages as human meat-shields
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