A law under consideration by the German parliament would mean that people who have committed anti-Semitic acts can never be granted citizenship, German Interior Minister Nancy Faeser said on Wednesday.
How do they define “antisemitic acts”? There have been widespread protests in support of Palestinian civilians, which goes against a ban in place since the attack by Hamas. Are they going to use vague definitions to revoke citizenship for people protesting against the genocide of Palestinians?
Nazi icons/clothing/symbols are outright banned. It’s not unspecific.
The statement is 100% in response to pro-Palestinian protests. They do not need to remind everyone not to be an outright Nazi.
With AfD over 20% we can kind of do need to remind them
Yes, I’m aware. In theory, giving parents more control over their kid’s education is good too. I’m against the Stop WOKE act though.
Uh, is my lemmy attaching the wrong replies to posts or something? Cause for me the comment this reply is on just doesn’t make sense as what is being replied to.
Lemmy does have some bugs. You do see the odd comment in a thread that was meant to be posted on another post.
If it doesn’t make sense, let me explain it. Germany has previously banned nazi iconography. This has been true for my entire life. I’m drawing parallels between this new law in the article from Germany that has very little explanation, and an unconstitutionally vague bill in Florida being used to ban real history about the US.
What does “unconstitutionally vague” mean?
I’ve never heard of this before. Thanks.
Yes
No, it’s impossible to revoke German citizenship. Defined in article 16 GG. The only exception is treason benefitting a state the offender also holds citizenship in.
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They will not revoke anything. They will just not grant citizenship for immigrants who have committed crimes that go against the (rough translation) “free and democratic foundations of the nation”. Basically: if you are against German democratic and humanitarian values to a degree that is criminal In Germany (eg Hate crimes, attempts to overthrow an election, etc), you can’t become a German citizen. You can live in Germany, you can be allowed to work here in Germany, but you ain’t one of us ans you can’t apply for most benefits.
Besides, the law actually makes it easier for immigrants to get German citizenship.
…but if you’re an outright Nazi, German intelligence might have a job for you.
Is there maybe a way to use this to revoke citizenship of all these CXU/AfD Fascists?
Nope. These types of laws are never aimed at blonde and blue-eyed people… not in the west, anyway.
If you’re not white but you want the best for your country and love your job, you’re fired and accused of being a communist lol. Literally idiocracy.
There is not (Art. 16 GG). IIRC the only exception is the fringe case of someone having dual citizenship and enlisting to fight in a conflict involving the other country or some shit.
You can lose citizenship by taking up another (non-EU) one without having jumped through quite some hoops before, have another citizenship and fight in their army without previously asking for permission (there’s a blanket exceptions for EU, NATO, EFTA and a couple of others), by giving it up, or being adopted by foreign parents. In all cases you won’t lose it if it’d make you stateless.
On the flip side if you lost your German citizenship previously due to the Nazis you can get it back no questions asked, some but quite low bars exist for cases like a woman marrying a foreigner (until 1953 that meant she lost citizenship). You can also get citizenship pretty much instantly if you live in a territory that once was Germany, or in the ex soviet block, and still are considered to be ethnically German.
For the rest it’s generally get a work permit, get permanent residence, stay here for eight years, that can be reduced to seven by completing an integration course, six if you’re aceing integration, pass a written test, got sentenced to more than a misdemeanour, know enough German, swear allegience to the free and democratic basic order, and are willing to lose your old citizenship (exception: EU or Swiss citizens, also, hardship. E.g. Iran simply doesn’t release people from their citizenship, the US demands exorbitant sums – but Americans still might want to get rid of theirs to get rid of the IRS).
Iran has this clause that they can technically allow someone to renounce their citizenship: the Council of Ministers has to accept your request and they simply never will, so you have to stay.
I have a friend in Iran that is a born Iranian who wanted to renounce his citizenship for years. First he was told it’s impossible before having completed the mandatory military service (a lie, it is not a requirement by their own laws). He finally caved in and did the 2 years bullshit service. Then, they told him he needed to be 26. Ok, fine, he waited until then. Then they told him his questionnaire form was outdated and he needs to apply again with the new one. How to get the new one? Only way seems to be over the official page that links to a dead link, literally 404.
Already the case. To gain citizenship you generally have to have a clear criminal record, with the exception of youth offences, fines up to 90 days, and prison up to 3 month if it was on probation, unless the motive was antisemitic, racist, xenophobic, or otherwise contemptuous of humanity.
If they want to extend it to “has done something like that that wasn’t illegal” then they’re going to have a hard time before court as it would amount to immigration officials infringing on prerogatives of the judicature.
Tell that to Israeli government and the NSO group destroying family values and relationships, selling spyware to the same dictatorships they claim to stand against then attempting to avoid accountability.
Yeah, the law this vague is purposely designed to be abused by the government. German police are already trying Nazi tactics at this point. The pro Palestinian rally at Frankfurt, they literally isolated young people with Palestinian flags, took pictures of people and their ID cards, and suddenly these people now have started getting problems in their schools,universities and jobs, even when they never shared anything political themselves. Germany and Fascism is a story for the ages.
That sounds really extreme. Do you have a reliable source for that?
The law is pretty clear. Are you a Nazi? Don’t be or else you don’t get a citizenship. They already have a law against being a Nazi so this new one isn’t some new law they could abuse now that they couldn’t before. Stop fear mongering.
Imagine just being an innocent person being caught up in this crap, then having literally everyone try to scapegoat you lol
I appreciate what you’re saying and I’m a little angry that people are calling you out for not providing sources. So I went and found some articles that can get us started finding out more about how the German government is treating pro-Palestinian protestors.
DW: Police Break up Gaza Protests
65 Officers Hurt, 174 Detained in Berlin Protest
People attending an outlawed protest get rounded up and identified, news at 11.
No, seriously. There have been plenty of pro-Palestine protests in Germany getting permits, there also have been plenty of pro-Palestine protests in Germany which got outlawed. The reason? Different organisers. Different capacities of those organisers to make sure that the protesters won’t commit crimes. Courts overruled some of those police assessments, but not all.
Like, people were up in arms even before all this went down that the Nakba protests in Berlin got outlawed. They completely ignored that in previous years, the same organisers held protests and those turned violent, broke out into “gas the Jews” chants, and whatnot.
As the Basic Law says: Every German has the right to peacefully assemble without weapon. The “German” part is usually ignored, also foreigners enjoy that right in practice. The “peacefully and without weapons” part OTOH is not negotiable.
Part of this is a cultural problem: The organisers don’t seem to understand how protesting works in Germany, what the do’s and don’ts are. And when they cross those lines, things get out of hand, public order is infringed upon, they try to play the victim card.
Do you know how much German police or Germans in general care if you call us Nazis? How much that stings? I’ll tell you: Zero. Because we know you’re full of shit.
You wrote a whole lot of words to just say that the government can do whatever. The protest on the 20th of October was specifically granted permission from the courts on the 19th, a day earlier. Half an hour before the protest, Polizei announced that it is now verboten (when? where?) and started arresting people and IDing them, the people who are unaware of changes and coming to attend a permissible demonstration. How isn’t that sketchy? That seems like an operation to identify pro-Palestinian people and intimidate/harass them, and actually follow through by contacting their universities and work.
I have been in Germany for around 2 decades as a dark skinned person, don’t tell me the scope of Nazi infiltration in the German military and police. I face them everyday. It’s common news among everyone, only willfully ignorant ones try to overlook it, and later will cry after their fascism gets discovered, just like from the Holocaust documentary when, German citizens were first taken to see concentration camps, and started crying “we didn’t know”. Ja right, gimme a break.
On the 20th? Only thing I can find in the press talks of a protest in Frankfurt around that date is on the 21st, which was peaceful and legal. A couple of counts of display of forbidden symbols (presumably Hamas flags), one count of incitement to hatred, but in a context of 1500 participants that’s nothing.
Me thinks you’re making up shit on the spot.
Me thinks less of what you think, and the 21st was also not peaceful but due to what happened on previous days, lawyers had a court order of peaceful assembly again, and didn’t back down, and let the demonstration happen. The irony of other people gaslighting me and telling me what happened when I witnessed it myself. Were you there at Frankfurtdemonstration? You are free to look, social Media is full of these things.
and the 21st was also not peaceful but due to what happened on previous days,
The police literally called it peaceful. What do you mean by “what happened on the previous days”? The city wanted to ban it, the court allowed it, and the protest went ahead as planned. That’s business as usual in Germany.
If there were protests before that they likely were (correct me if I’m wrong) unannounced and if you don’t announce a non-spontaneous protest the police can dissolve it without a court order. That’s why people announce protests: To have legal protection.
You are free to look, social Media is full of these things.
Do any of those people understand the legal and cultural situation? Also, which fucking posts. You have been asked before to provide links, and came up empty. I gave you a report from the hessenschau, do you see any factual errors in there? Ones that you could back up?
He doesn’t have any. He is just mad you called out his lies.
Prove it. Show us something when its so easy to find. Show us a reliable unbiased Source.
That was cathartic to read.
How are they going to detect that, a “yes/no” question?
Per the article, past convictions.
Germany now bans Germany
Germany has banned that aspect of their history for quite some time
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They will use this law to deny citizenship to people from Palestine
Likely to anyone who even feigns sympathy for them too, if German reaction to Palestinian Liberation protests are anything to go by.
There’s a quite simple line in Germany: Don’t be violent and don’t shout things like “gas the Jews” and you can protest. And thousands did in quite a number of cities on quite a number of days. Get out of your filter bubble.
Exactly.
True.
If they had past convictions
And Ukraine I suppose
Until the brain-scan is perfected.
geeze get over your preconceptions about europeans, they have words for yes and no…
yikes
Why not make that hate crimes in general?
Minister Faeser also makes it clear: “Racism, anti-Semitism or any other form of misanthropy stand in the way of naturalization - there is zero tolerance.” A clear commitment to the values of a free society should therefore be a prerequisite for naturalization. Anyone who does not share values such as the dignity and equality of all people and the equal rights of men and women, or who even acts against them, may not become a German.
But that’s already in the law. Unless the idea is to throw the Rechtsstaat out of the window and remove the requirement that people have the right to a fair trial.
Because that’s already in the law:
Sentence 1 does not apply if the foreigner was convicted of an antisemitic, racist or xenophobic offence, or other criminal offence evidencing contempt for humanity as referred to in section 46 (2) sentence 2 of the Criminal Code (Strafgesetzbuch) and sentenced to a prison term, fine or youth custody and the court judgment found that the offence was based on such a motive.
This is 100% performative bullshit.
Define anti semite
Not kissing Israel’s ass presumably
Israel is objectively in the right in the war but I’m afraid that defining anti semite could mean anyone they don’t like
Oh look… somebody running interference for a genocidal white supremacist colonialist state.
Ho hum.
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gottverdammt*
Showing off Nazi symbols. Which already is illegal
You dislike jews because they are jews.
A seven year old could figure that out, or shit, read wikipedia idk…
They are asking which way the minister wants to define the term.
The fucking same I would presume, most likely looking it up in a dictionary
Given how often the term is being misused lately, it’s a fair question. The Israeli embassy started a campaing against the mayor of Barcelona trying to frame her as an antisemite because she took symbolic measures to denounce Israel’s crimes against Palestinians back in February. Plenty of European politicians just don’t want to speak with honesty because they don’t want the bad PR of being the target of this kind of attacks.
How would you derive that someone “dislikes jews because they are jews”? Do you listen to them talk and make a decision following your gut? Do you make an MRI image of their brain and measure their brain waves to read their mind?
You would have to work with their past actions. And then it becomes non trivial to define “anti-semite”.
So it is not really about “what does the word mean” but “how do you decide who fits the definition and who doesn’t”. People are concerned about this because it is very hard to make a law that 100% only fits to the people you want to target (leaving asside wether the principle is correct or not).What in the fuck are you even talking about? Do you have the same issue identifying a racist? Do you need to MRI scan a KKK members brain to be sure if they are racist, do a deep dive into the background? Goddamn some of you on lemmy are fucking stupid…
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Imagine being this misinformed lol
Israel is a apartheid ethnostate, so it’s a model country for white nationalist.
It’s neither of those things, and it’s really racist of you to say.
20% of Israel is made up of non-jewish Arabs and they have full citizenship. Also, fun fact, not all Jews are white.
Why would say it’s racist when being jewish is a religion? Also just because they’re not particularly white doesn’t mean that White supremacy can be inspired or want to support ideologies like apartheid states. Especially the people they’re targeting happen to be a group of people white supremacists would deem as “unpure”?
Because there’s a bunch of tribes including the majority of modern Israeli jews who are native to the Middle East for centuries.
Arabs and Hebrewd are both Semitic (as in native to the area) and both groups look the same. There’s like half a dozen sub groups plus others that are welcome in Israel and are full citizens and aren’t jews.
It’s a sectarian conflict. Foreigners injecting racist whiteness into it is ignorant of the situation actually in the region.
Especially the people they’re targeting happen to be a group of people white supremacists would deem as “unpure”
They’re targeting Jews?
Like you see how fucking silly this whole diatribe is, right? You’ve got nothing to back your ethnostate claim up, nothing to back your apartheid state up, and Nazis do not typically care for Jews.
This conversation is just dumb man.
So, you’re just going to ignore the Israeli attempt at committing genocide against the Palestinians?
No I don’t think there are credible claims of genocide whatsoever.
If Israel was intent on genocide, they could easily accomplish that. They are most assuredly not outgunned.
If they wanted to displace Palestinians permanently, they could absolutely do that. No nearby nation would commit serious forces to stop them.
It is quite obvious that, though terrible civilian losses are occurring, Israel is trying hard to mitigate them. Civilian losses occur in urban fighting. Moving the population that they can to the south is part of minimization of those losses.
They have displaced Palestinians permanently, upto now anyway. The Zionists ran them decades ago, how has Israel expanded if not for displacing people.
You haven’t found evidence of a genocide…is the bombing of refugee camps in the city they are sieging not strong enough evidence for you? Do you need gas showers and a pile of shoes?
They have displaced Palestinians permanently, upto now anyway. The Zionists ran them decades ago, how has Israel expanded if not for displacing people
This is just flatly inaccurate.
None of the people pushing the aparteid ethnostate angle are from the area…the settler shit is bad but like a lot of Israelis agree they are bad and should go. Cops are Bastards.
Explain it’s a sectarian thing based as much on politics (who won a civil war our grandparents generation fought) at this point and they just don’t care.
Like there’s been very public attempts to remove the far right government members. No one remembers the entire country including the air force striking when Bibi tried to fuck with the judiciary prosecuting his crimes earlier this year. The president (its usually mostly ceremonial) is the leader of the Socialist Labor party.
Bibi is at historic low popularity, 8-9/10 Israelis (including the large Arab citizen Pop) want him gone.
Gaza is fucked now because the Palestinian nationalist movement went wild and militant after Yaser Arafat died. Dude was also massively corrupt and hurt his people for his own personal enrichment.
(also every time someone pops off about Zionism and the Ashkenazi tribe immigrating to the region in the 1800s I have to consider whether to tell them like 69% of jews in Israel literally aren’t European zionists under their own definition. Around 900k native to region for centuries jews moved to Israel shortly after it came into existence when they got expelled from the surrounding countries in a nationalistic fervor that spurred a ton of extremely bad shit.)
They can keep their own Nazis, just not have new extra foreigners.
Germany actively boots out and leashes nazis, while Israel elects them to office, parties with them, names districts after them, and permits them visits to the Kotel.
💀💀💀💀💀
Wild times.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
BERLIN, Oct 25 (Reuters) - A law under consideration by the German parliament would mean that people who have committed anti-Semitic acts can never be granted citizenship, German Interior Minister Nancy Faeser said on Wednesday.
“Our draft for the new citizenship law, which we will now discuss in the Bundestag, provides a clear exclusion of anti-Semites,” Faeser said in a statement issued after she met with Israeli ambassador to Germany, Ron Prosor.
She added that German authorities were “extremely vigilant” with regards to supporters of the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas in Germany, saying that any such person would be “prosecuted with the full force of the law.”
The original article contains 107 words, the summary contains 107 words. Saved 0%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Peak performance.
Deal with it. If you want to make out with Hamas ,do it without german citizenship.
It was about time. All those diehard Erdoğan fans for example are pretty antisemitic in my experience.
So its bad when Nazi’s kill people indiscriminately, but when Jews do it to Palestinians that’s totally fine?
