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- world@lemmy.world
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- world@lemmy.world
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This is completely stupid. If Hamas are hiding in hospitals then surely there’s a better fucking way to target them than trying to blow the whole fucking place up. One way would be to send a strike team, after all Israel and Mossad are “famous” for hunting terrorists down after the Munich bombing at the Olympics. Yet the same country can only now resort to cutting off infrastructure and bombing refugee camps, ambulances, schools and hospitals plus which is killing aid workers and drs.
I don’t know how strike teams work and such but I doubt it’s as easy as in Call of Duty.
OP’s a child who’s never dealt with violence, war or destroyed infrastructure.
My ex-FIL was a decorated Army vet (Iraq, 2x Bronze Stars), Mississippi National Guard. FFS, those men couldn’t get into their own cities after Hurricane Katrina, in peacetime. They cut fucking houses in half and pushed them aside to open the roads.
Send in a strike team?! To a civilian hospital in a war zone?! That’s a solid plan to get your men killed on the incursion, OR, get a bunch of civilians killed and THEN lose all your men.
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Also known as war criminals.
what the actual fuck. I’m gonna report you here, to insult every decorated veteran as a war criminal is wrong on so many levels.
Lol you’re getting downvoted for being right.
People serving in Iraq acting like they served in WWII. Mother fuckers killed and tortured civilians, destroyed towns and claimed “victory” against people who were defending their homelands.
We invaded and occupied a sovereign nation in the name of “WMDs” which we found none of and acting like we did god’s work over here. All they did was help create more animosity against Americans. Good fucking job.
You mean the government that committed multiple atrocities against their own people? The government which regularly tortured and executed prisoners of war? The government whose leader’s son was a psychopath who raped a different woman every day, and had a penchant for brides on their wedding night?
USA did the people of Iraq a favour by getting rid of Saddam and the Baath party, WMDs or not.
Oh? Is that right? I see a government (Israel) slaughtering 10k civilians right now. Where is that sense of moral duty? Why don’t we go in there and send a peace keeping force?
We did Iraqis a favor by slaughtering 30k of their civilians did we? How many did Saddam kill before us? Didn’t we take out OBL by not slaughtering people in Pakistan?
Foh.
Dude, Saddam Hussein committed genocide against his own people. It’s well documented and is why the United Nations authorized unilateral force against the country back in 1991, as well as a 15-year no-fly zone across most of the country.
He also gassed the Kurds repeatedly. And his brothers were a psychopaths. Well, they all were.
Uday was in particular a great guy:
“he was guilty of rape, murder, and torture, including the arrest and torture of Iraqi Olympic athletes and members of the national football team whenever they lost a match.”
And
“Uday also ordered the kidnapping of Ilham Ali al-Aazami, Miss Iraq, after she had rejected him. Uday and his bodyguards subsequently held her captive and raped her for weeks, and started the rumor that she was a prostitute, causing her to be killed by her father. When the father confronted Uday, the latter spoke disparagingly about the girl, causing the father to lose control to the point of first verbally accosting and ultimately physically assailing Uday. This prompted Uday to order Latif to shoot the father — rather than acquiesce, Latif instead refused and attempted to commit suicide. Ultimately the father was murdered by one of Uday’s bodyguards.[76] On another occasion, Uday attacked a newlywed couple and raped the bride in the al-Medina Hotel. She then committed suicide by throwing herself off the balcony. Her husband, a lieutenant, was later killed for “insulting the president”.[76]”
These were the people who were ruling Iraq for decades. I really wouldn’t want to be making excuses for people like this. But, you do you!
Uhh, what?
Yeah, for starters your own people are going to get killed.
It would probably have fewer casualties on the enemy side however since some of them might actually live. However, Israel’s goal is not to allow Hamas members to survive.
That would only make sense if the goal wasn’t revenge and ethnic cleansing.
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Exactly! It surely can’t be harder to fight 30,000 embedded terrorists than 8 scattered terrorists in hiding.
I think Israel should give them supplies to continue operation until they can be evacuated. And also Israel should give them notice of evacuation weeks in advance so they can prepare. And Israel should be expected to provide alternate medical care.
This is not as easy as you think. You have to get your team to the target, through terrorists hiding among civilians, through IDE’s that are hidden along the way, through civilians that do not like you. And if you miraculously survive this march without heavy casualties the Hamas are already gone and hide somewhere else…not to forget the civilian casualties that would happen on the way…
jUst sEnd A sTriKe tEam lmao
Idiots thought modern warfare was a documentary
So bombing hospitals is the right answer? Really Israel needs to just fucking ceasefire.
From a tactical perspective it is. A ceasefire would help the civilians but also would benefit the Hamas…it’s a double edged sword.
From a tactical perspective it’s a goddamn war crime. When should they stop, then? When no native Palestinian remains, so they can swoop in and take all of Gaza like they’ve been trying to do for the last 70 years? Hamas is a response to decades of ethnic cleansing and Israel is using it as an excuse to further their conquest
Edit: this isn’t necessarily directed at OP. It’s more of an open ended question for those in support of the bombings
From a tactical perspective it’s a goddamn war crime.
It’s also a war crime to use civilians as meat shields or to use hospitals or other cilvilian buildings as base of operations or storage for military equipment. Please don’t act as Hamas is giving real choices to Israel. They could either act or give the Hamas and other organisations an advantage and they all have their fair share of atrocities but I mostly see the war crime label on the actions of Israel in social media and I find this kind of strange.
Hamas is a response to decades of ethnic cleansing
Hamas is a bunch of rabid dogs that hate jews, just like all the other terrorist factions around them, who want to kill everyone that dont give a fuck about their great Allah. Of course Israel has their fair share in atrocities and is also fueling this conflict, but don’t fool yourself in thinking that those terrorist groups would stop after they got rid of Israel. Netanyahu and his political party need to go if we ever want peace in the middle east, but the same goes for Hamas and all the other religious dipshits.
And just to set this in perspective, the same is happening in Russia right now. There will be a whole generation with a furious hatred for the west and our lifestyle because of the propaganda and the lies of their leader. And I’m asking you, wouldn’t it be justified for the west to defend itself against that?
It’s more of an open ended question for those in support of the bombings
I really don’t think that someone is supporting the bombing of civilians or the amount of casualties. But Hamas or the other groups will continue. Israel gould go back to the borders of 1948 and there would be still missle attacks each day against them. From the perspective of these groups Israel has no right to exist and now please tell me how do you defend yourself against such primal agression? How do you avoid civilian casualites if the enemy is hiding among them? How do you save the life of your troops and keep your defense up in such a scenario? The cruel and sad answer to that is what we all witness every day.
And I do not support it, I really condemn it, but I also have no idea how it could be dealt with in any other way that would not benefit the Hamas in the end.
Where do you think these terrorist groups come from? Decades of people displacing, killing, and blockading their friends and family. The West has been invading and splitting up the Middle-East for like a hundred years. Continuing to do the same is just causing more jihad groups.
The solution, since you asked, is to not undermine the PLO by supporting Hamas like the right in Israel did. It’s to prop up and strengthen the PLO, legitimize them instead of running scared from negotiations every time Hamas does an attack (a third party that should be ignored, but since Israel has never been serious about negotiations since that one guy got assassinated it’s been a good excuse for them to stop them and then keep grabbing more land). Then they can work together against Hamas. Then you’re probably going to have to Marshall Plan the area. It’s racist to think their inherently more violent because they’re brown. It’s basically what people used to say about the Japanese during WW2. They’re in a giant prison right now which breeds that kind of behavior.
Basically they need a chance to have a better quality of life, and that will require what the world did for the Germany and Europe after the war, the same kind of investments we made in Japan or South Korea, or Israel lol. It will probably also require some Reconciliation committees like South Africa, possibly some land reform like in many formerly colonized countries, maybe reparations, etc.
You realise what it took to get Japan and Germany to the point where they could be rehabilitated? Both were completely dismantled as warfighting states, something which caused millions of civillian casualties.
War is grim as fuck but what other choice does Israel have?
As far as international law goes no this is not a war crime.
If your military takes refuge or uses a civilian center for military operation then that location becomes a valid military target regardless of the risk to civilian lives.
Basically Hamas is commiting the crime by purposefully setting up in these areas. Once they do that then civilian death is acceptable collateral damage, legally speaking.
What about bombing humanitarian aide locations or using white phosphorus as a weapon?
Same thing applies to humanitarian aid.
If Hamas has hijacked or is operating in those places then they become military targets.
As far as white phosphorus, it depends on how it’s deployed. If it’s deployed for masking, tracing or identifying then it’s legal.
If it’s being directly used as an incendiary then that’s illegal.
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Rather just bomb the fucking place and move on.
Should’ve added an /s eh
Not if you look at it from Israel’s point of view. The bombing results in less casualites on their side and still hurts the Hamas. I know this sounds cruel and I strongly condemn the civilian casualites, but from a tactical perspective it absolute makes sense and Israel has not that many options, Hamas made it very clear that they will continue so they have to fight them.
No it doesn’t make fuckin sense unless you don’t understand why hamas exists. Let’s assume that Palestinians aren’t people, and it’s morally acceptable to kill dozens of them to get one or two Hamas guys. Now, you have a ton of family members of those dead people who are extremely angry at Israel for killing their family and friends. Do you think those people just sit down and die quietly? No, quite a few of them join a terrorist organization to fight back. So now, by bombing that hospital, you’ve created more terrorists than you’ve killed.
“Let’s assume that Israelis aren’t people, and it’s morally acceptable to kill dozens of them to get one or two IDF guys. Now, you have a ton of family members of those dead people who are extremely angry at Hamas for killing their family and friends. Do you think those people just sit down and die quietly? No, quite a few of them join the IDF to fight back. So now, by attacking the concert, you’ve created more enemies than you’ve killed.”
If Hamas was freedom fighters, then your exact same defense applies to the Israeli military, and it’s a neverending cycle of “justified” violence.
But, Hamas are NOT freedom fighters. They want the war to continue in perpetuity and they’re keeping supplies from the civilians. They are a terrorist organization completely distinct from the Palestinians, that is also oppressing the Palestinians.
Hamas’ goal is to provoke Israel into the most violent responses possible. They want Israel to be genocidal. It makes Israel lose support and it’s more likely for countries like Iran to join the fight. They would be more than happy with all Palestinians dying if it meant killing all the Israelis too. Because they are a terrorist group.
If Hamas was freedom fighters, then your exact same defense applies to the Israeli military, and it’s a neverending cycle of “justified” violence.
Yeah. That’s true. There will be continued death and destruction until Israel tries for peace by undermining Hamas politically, not violently. Or until Israel ethnically cleanses the vast majority of Palestinians, which it seems like they’re trying to do.
Hamas is a resistance group, even if their tactics are awful. Their goal isn’t to provoke the most awful Israeli responses possible, but to retaliate for the violence that the IDF does. This has been the case for a while, and October 7th is really the main exception because I doubt Hamas predicted how far they’d get. Even with the Oct 7 attack, Hamas literally tried to trade their hostages for women and children in Israeli prisons. They tried to use their hostages as leverage to get Israel to stop bombing civilians as much. They have to care about Palestinians to some extent, because if enough citizens of Gaza decide the PA is a lot better, Hamas won’t exist anymore, or at least lose power.
Because they are a terrorist group.
You say this like it means anything. The ANC (fought apartheid south africa) was also a terrorist group. So was the FLN (fought french in the Algerian revolution), the Viet Minh (first Indochina war, against the french), and many other resistance groups.
I’m amazed people are so stupid they still haven’t realized if you kill one innocent guy you just created 3 freedom fighters.
This is a war, so you are basically talking about an urban assault involving thousands of IDF infantry kicking doors down house to house and shooting anyone who shoots at them.
The US did that in Fallujah, and it’s pretty gnarly. US had 500 casualties IIRC. The US also told all the residents to evacuate Fallujah before the operation went down.
That’s why they’re using this strategy. If there were a ton of Israeli soldier casualties on Bibi’s watch, the military might let the public remove him from power, or do it themselves. Netanyahu has every motivation to bomb and starve Gaza. The actual solution would have been to build up Palestinian groups who oppose Hamas and prefer a two state solution, but that isn’t the IDF’s goal. Their refusal to do so over the last few decades not only led to this war, but should have told supportive nations that too many Zionists are genocidal theocrats.
The most economical endgame for Israel’s current military actions is the forceful expulsion of almost all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. Occupation is a bad option. They’ve undermined the movement for coexistence so badly that even a total reversal of policy would be difficult. It’s so fucking sad.
Meh. God will punish him surely.
I don’t care what God will do to him; I just want to get these awful people out of power so they’ll stop killing children. God making things right in the afterlife isn’t a universally agreed upon truth, so we must do the right thing regardless of its existence. If God is good, surely he’d want us to make our mortal existence less miserable and more meaningful, right?
I prefer not to attempt to assert my morality upon a higher power
The actual solution would have been to build up Palestinian groups who oppose Hamas and prefer a two state solution, but that isn’t the IDF’s goal.
This idea supposes that Palestinians themselves are somehow too incompetent to do it without external help. Which reality seems to agree with.
Not really. Israel has attacked and undermined the PLO for decades, almost more than Hamas. It’s the situation of Israel stepping on the throats of all Palestinians, even those who want to work towards peace. The two state solution requires Israel’s support, and when they don’t give it, those attempting to make it happen on the Palestinian side look like fools. Israel has the power to allow for peace, but they make it near impossible.
Palestinians can’t make a two state solution happen without the cooperation of the other state. That’s what two state means.
Hmmm, what reason would Israel have to regard the PLO as the terrorist group it once was?
I mean, they did sign the Oslo accords and recognized the PLO as the official representatives of Palestinians.
America tried bombing a million innocent civilians from the comfort of their lazy ass Texas seat too. Remind me whether they won that war. Surely they didn’t leave a giant power vacuum and created many more resistance fighters.
Majority of deaths in iraq were during the civil war and the insurgency that followed, the 1 million figure that gets banded about with little evidence is in no way “civillians killed by NATO”.
The irony of hiding in a hospital when you literally cause war.
Doesn’t it make more sense to argue that the person dropping bombs just doesn’t want to admit they missed the target and fucked thousands of people because they’re shit at their job? If you were fighting an alien or hunting a foreign agent, and you screwed up and accidentally shot your own family down in flames, you’d probably be rather embarrassed, I sure would be too haha
But hey it’s alright nobody will judge even if they knew because the truth is that some jobs suck and just get glamorised on the news and in the media precisely because even the very few who make the cut can still be considered competent
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Why do you blame Israel for the actions of their enemies?
Everyone is blaming Israel for the actions of Israel. I honestly have no idea how you could get this from the comment.
If you feel like you need to defend Israel in this situation, maybe ask yourself why that is. Is it really so difficult to call this obvious war crime out? You can still support them overall but acknowledge their (many) failings. At this point just saying “but Hamas!” in response to every valid criticism looks absolutely pathetic.
At what point do you think Hamas should take responsibility for hiding behind civilian infrastructure, including digging tunnels under a freaking hospital?
Obviously they should take responsibility. Should Israel take responsibility for it’s crimes too?
So why blame Israel for something Hamas is doing? Why aren’t you ranting about them?
Answer the question
They did. Israel is firing at Hamas, not hospitals. Full stop.
To take out Hamas any other way would be worse for civilians because it would involve a longer operation including a cordon. Look at 2017 in Mosul if you don’t believe me.
For most people, I think that the problem isn’t with Hamas being held responsible. The problem is that people bearing the brunt of Hamas’ and Israeli actions aren’t members of Hamas - they’remedical personnel and patients and civilians in general.
Yeah, because they’re being used as human shields.
Of course they are. Why else would you set up in a hospital? Doing so (turning hospital into a command post or using a marked ambulance to transport fighters or weapons) is against international law. If it is true that Hamas is doing that in these exact examples and not merely as a general practice), those buildings and vehicles are legal military targets. I was in the business and I’m familiar with all of the arguments and justifications.
What it comes down to, legally, is whether the response was proportional to the threat and whether every attempt was made to restrict damage to civilian infrastructure and persons. Just as a hypothetical example, using an F-16 to drop two bombs on a populated hospital because there’s a couple of snipers on the 6th floor would be a disproportionate response. Using a rocket propelled grenade against that window/room is more proportional, even if there were patients in the same room. Killing them with counter-sniper fire so as to save those patients but still eliminate the threat is the most proportional.
The other dimension, though, is the moral culpability (if you believe in free will) or at least the functional responsibility (if you do not) of designing and launching an operation in which massive amounts of civilian casualties and misery will be caused. I don’t see that enough.
I think it was Aquinas who laid out one of the early versions of just war theory. One of the main points is that the intended outcome must be proportional to the harms caused.
What people are questioning is whether a particular encounter or the operation in general were necessary and proportional.
I appreciate the well reasoned response. Whether this is an appropriate or balanced response from Israel, I don’t really know, but I’m tired of everyone demanding they be the bigger people, and completely ignoring the actions of Hamas.
German people in WW2 weren’t all nazis. Some of those non-nazi germans were hurt, which was ultimately a tragic thing, but the responsibility for their deaths lies primarily with the nazis.
Edit It’s impressive that everyone’s able to agree with this thought but get very confused when “nazis” is replaced with “hamas” and “German people” with “Palestinian people”
Just like in this case when you’re an Israeli and you’re in government you have been given power. Power and authority is a gift, with strings attached. Your paystub and government funded car and badge is not a whore to be abused.
Edit: tl;dr ITT I try and fail to convey that terrorists using innocent people as meat shields/hostages is wrong and a government bombing those terrorists along with their hostages is also wrong. I dunno how that’s too confusing for anyone to understand but I guess some folk truly are lost causes.
Original comment below:
Are you implying that Israel has not done any bombing whatsoever? Or are you implying that terrorists hiding behind innocent people means everyone involved must die by bombing? Or are you just a troll trying to get a reaction from people by posting an obviously ignorant comment?
Let me ask you this, if some bank robbers took your family and friends hostage, what do you think the response should be? By your own logic I must assume that they all need to die because criminals were using them as meat shields. By your logic, if your home is being robbed and the robber uses you as a shield, the response should be to mow you down along with the robber. How unlucky for you that the robber chose your house eh? How ignorant.
And if you’re struggling to put yourself in those shoes, good. Be glad that you’re so far removed from such dangers. But you are not immune. Criminals and potential terrorists exist everywhere, and I truly hope that if you ever find yourself in a hostage situation that the response isn’t what you idolize for innocent people in a foreign land. Because even unemphatic scum don’t deserve to die simply for being a hostage.
I’d like to assume that you simply forgot a “/s”, and I apologize if the sarcastic intent of your comment was lost, but there are people that truly believe what you’ve said.
We’re not dealing with bank robbers though, are we? We’re dealing with a government.
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And what does that change exactly? Definition: A government is a group of people governing an organized community. So if that organized community were a bunch of robbers or terrorists, and they had some others to govern them, they are by definition a government. If that government or organized community then holds you hostage, does that somehow make it different compared to if it were just a group of unorganized robbers or terrorists that didn’t have leaders? So just because some common criminals have a leader, making them a “government”, all of a sudden it’s ok to kill you along with them?
Let me simplify that. Gangs are governments by definition, i.e. an organized community with leaders. If you, your family, and/or friends were held hostage by a gang, you are saying it’s okay to kill you, your family, and/or friends in the name of killing off some gangsters. If that feels wrong then you need to rethink your opinion because that is a direct equivalence to what is happening between Israel and Hamas/Palestinians. Hamas are the equivalent to gangsters and Israel is the equivalent to the US government acting through the police to murder people you love in the name of killing off gangsters.
Let me answer that first question for you because I now believe you’re too thick skulled to figure it out yourself. The fact that it’s a “government” changes nothing in regards to another “government” killing innocent people.
Please note, I am not(!!) advocating for Hamas. What they have done and are still doing is fucking terrible. I condemn it with every fiber of my being. But to say that innocent people brought their own deaths upon themselves simply for existing on the wrong side of an imaginary line is fucked up. The only people that are “losing” in this conflict are the innocent people dying on both sides of the imaginary line. And if you can’t agree with that I’m done replying. Just because someone is Palestinian doesn’t make their deaths any better or worse than if they’re Israeli. Innocent civilians are innocent civilians regardless of which side of the line they’re on. I condemn any and all violence in this conflict. Both governments think they’re in the right and the only people that suffer are those caught in the crossfire. Full stop. May you find a little empathy, have a nice night, and a good life.
You’re putting a lot of effort into blaming Israel for defending themselves against a terrorist organisation.
Are you implying that all Palestinian people are apart of “a terrorist organization”? You are beginning to come across as full on racist. At what point does “Justice” turn into terrorism in itself? How many innocent people is it “okay” to kill in the name of defeating a terrorist organization? It isn’t just “a terrorist organization” being killed.
Palestinian == terrorist. Hamas == terrorists. Killing hundreds/thousands of Palestinians in order to kill Hamas is not okay. Bombing a hospital filled with Palestinians is not okay.
Also, which is it? Is Hamas “a terrorist organization” or a government?
I’m done arguing with Hamas sympathisers today, sorry.
Also, I’m not blaming anyone or any government. I’m not speaking anything about self defense, other than that self defense does not entail violence against innocent people. I do not know enough of the topic or conflict to get into any of that. I am solely pointing out that blindly killing anyone and everyone in proximity of some wrong doing, regardless of their involvement in said wrong doing, is in and of itself wrong.
What’s your position on slaughtering over a thousand civilians at a music festival?
seems meta around here…
Oh so bombing the hospitals and killing doctors and children was all fine then
Yeah, but they were brown doctors and children, so it’s OK
Edit: did I really need a /s?
No, you need better jokes.
Do you have any proof of bombed hospitals? On all of the photos/videos they are perfectly intact. That’s why hamas members like to sit in them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It’s sad that it took them this long.
This is just lip service to stay relevant and seem to have any semblance of moral since all the western propaganda have failed to make the world turn on the palestinians.
Now they have to say “hey we, umm… were thinking they’re doing bad things too”
What are they going to do if Israel kills double the numbers it already has? NOTHING!!
I really thought this was The Onion.
Same
US Cops shout “stop resisting” as they beat their victims, then later ‘deplore’ that they ‘brought it on themselves’ “Hamas should stop resisting” oh the humanity
Hamas is not a victim in any sense of the word.
2 million people, half of which are kids, being brought up with missile strikes, blockades, and slow starvation are definitely victims compared to the professional liars that are the IDF
Hamas is a terrorist group that went out of their way to kill and kidnap innocent people, wanted to provoke this exact Israeli response, and want the war to continue unabated.
Palestinians are civilians. They live under a dictatorship by Hamas which does not allow dissent. They’re being slaughtered indiscriminately by Israel.
Hamas has stockpiles of supplies that they aren’t sharing with the Palestinians, even though they wanted Israel to cut off all supplies. They steal aid that’s meant for the civilians. And they dismantle projects meant to help Palestinians to make into weapons.
These are not the same group. Hamas is absolutely not a victim, but the Palestinian people absolutely are. Don’t conflate the two. The Palestinians are victims of Hamas as well.
TIL Hamas has 2 million members.
Well according to Israeli media, which lists every single dead civilian as a “dead terrorist”, that’s exactly the logic being applied by the Israelis in power.
And they’re absolutely fucking wrong. The terrorists have a dictatorship over Palestinians. They are not the same, and their numbers shouldn’t be mixed together even if the genocidal IDF wants to.
I’m absolutely against israel’s continued operations in Gaza and even I’m not trying to paint Hamas as the innocent victims here. The fact is, the people of Gaza have been victimized by Hamas first, then the IDF.
Another fact is that only IDF is trying to fix the situation. And third one is that the biggest reason the left is defending Hamas is historical: because PLO was leftist, modern leftists must defend the current incarnation of it.
I wish the left grew some actual values, they seemed to lost them all in 1990. Doesn’t matter if they’re something I disagree with. Just have something instead of mindlessly repeating what you did back when Communism was still a thing.
You have no idea what the left is. Your image of the left is a caricature created to make you feel morally superior. No one gives any sort of shit about the PLO at all, they’ve been irrelevant the whole time we’ve been alive. No one is defending Hamas for any reason at all let alone because they’re some sort of inheritor of a leftist organization that, again, ceased existing before many of us started.
The left, the real left that exists outside your fever dreams, is talking about all the people who aren’t Hamas, aren’t PLO, but are still being forced from their homes at gunpoint. The Real Left That Exists is wondering why an ancestral claim to the land is valid for Israelis, but only for Israelis. The Real Left That Exists is talking about the Real Dead Babies That Exist, the thousands of children that have been killed by indiscriminate bombing and dozens of open war crimes. If you’re going to take sides against us, put your straw man away and take sides against us, you coward. Argue against what we’re saying. Tell that 8 year old Palestinian in Gaza that if he didn’t want his whole family to be killed he shouldn’t have voted for Hamas 9 years before he was born. Tell the Palestinians in the West Bank, where Hamas never gained a foothold, that if they didn’t want to live under martial law that they should have somehow stopped Gazans from voting for Hamas 17 years ago.
No one is defending Hamas for any reason at all
Their terrorist attack from about a month ago has been publically admired by many lefties and academics in the west. Or perhaps these people are not the “real left” that you’re referring to?
There are extremists on both sides. Would you like to stick to relevant voices or are you ready to defend members of the Israeli government that call all Palestinians animals and are flat out calling for a genocide?
Oh Israel has done a bang-up job on Hamas PR, I bet they are getting tons of donations now and secret help. When you blow up kids and doctors and nurses, people will befriend the enemy of my enemy situation.
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Are you implying that there are 9 year olds who are members of a terrorist organization? I wouldn’t go that far when describing how utterly evil they are.
Despite it being a good Reuters article, people aren’t even reading the second half of the damn title lol.
Edit: Who am I kidding? We know they are but they’re going to ignore it for a reason lol.
Hamas and the Gaza Health ministry have invited the international community to check this themselves and have apparently provided tours and proof from long ago that that AlShifa hospital has nothing underneath it. The company constructing the Indonesian hospital also denied that any tunnels were underneath and debunked the video of Osrael claiming there is a tunnel entrance there. The EU should check first. There isn’t much evidence for tunnels under hospitals and almost all Israel “evidence” provided is such low quality. Not sure how “smart” they are when any 14 year old with a shred of knowledge on using audio editors would be able to tell that the phone call was patched up together from two unrelated ones.
What phone call are you talking about? There was a call relating to the explosion at al Ahli hospital where some people claimed the audio was edited but the only reasoning they had was that one speaker was in one channel and the other speaker in the other channel. That is exactly what you would expect from a wiretap though - the signal for the two speakers is not present in the same wire at the same time, so it needs to be assembled from two separate data sources.
what you would expect from a wiretap though
Source? I don’t really know how wiretaps work.
That audio call has been criticized for all sorts of problems. The dialect, the audio put together, the vagueness of the discussion, the fact that the two people sound like two neighbours chatting and not two vetted resistance fighters, etc.
Another example is Israel’s most recent claim that the hospital (Al Shifa this time) refused to receive fuel. The phone call is only a few seconds long, the word “fuel” is never mentioned in it, and as an Arabic speaker, I recognized immediately that they were arguing about the “amount” and not the fuel itself. Yet the IDF have published this as “evidence” that the hospital is refusing the fuel delivery, allowing more babies to die. I think it’s quite laughable. Turned out later that the IDF promised 2k liters, then decided to send only 300 liters, which would have powered the hospital for half an hour… totally ignoring that the main issue is that people are being sniped inside the hospital itself, and the yard is filling up with dead and decomposing bodies, some shot for simply stepping foot outside.
I’ve considered writing about this at more length. I think the Israeli propaganda machine has the quality you would expect from a hobbyist, yet with high aspirations.
The quality and absurdity of IDF propaganda recently gives the impression they don’t take it seriously either. It used to be pretty convincing, but I think they’re at the point where everyone running the show is an extremist who can’t consider the outside perspective. So it becomes this schizophrenic thing where the propaganda is directed at a hypothetical viewer they’ve envisioned who doesn’t really exist. Some of the stuff showing up on my YouTube is straight up uncanny valley weirdness.
Also if everything the IDF is promoting here are the true facts of the situation it still doesn’t justify their actions to the world. The number of people who are finally realizing this is at least a good thing. The response to ceasefire protests from the Israel propaganda machine shares the schizophrenic tone with some of the propaganda as well, to the point where they’re calling Jewish groups non-Jews and equating peace with anti-Semitism.
I haven’t been following the bullshit said by the IDF, but if they’re claiming tunnels as the main reason for bombing hospitals, that’s ghoulish. They can easily say that Hamas fired rockets from the roof or that they stored weapons amongst patients, and it would be hard to disprove those claims. Don’t find evidence of rockets on the roof? Hamas cleaned up the evidence. Don’t find evidence of weapons in the hospitals? They moved them. Tunnels aren’t like that. Even if sealed off or destroyed, they’ll be physical evidence that’s hard to get rid of. I guess the typical excuses just weren’t cutting it. Even if half the patients were Hamas militants, there’s still a ton of innocent people.
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Don’t care, dont fucking bomb hospitals you soulless ghouls
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Why are we believing Israel at its word when it’s proven they’re habitual, professional liars who all but admitted their own role in orchestrating the majority of the civilian deaths on 7th October?
I’m 100% certain this claim will be debunked in a week when someone proves they’ve just decorated an ICU ward with Hamas flags or some shit. I’ll remember all the bloodthirsty pricks who woke up excited at the prospect of denying civilians the right to life and freedom over something they know in their hearts is probably a falsehood.
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Does anyone have any evidence that this was actually taking place? It seems like the most moronic and easy excuse to get away with war crimes. Hey did you just blow up that school?? Yes…but umm…Hamas was there! No wait… it was their rocket that did it…yeah wasn’t us it was them!
Why does everyone think Israel a notorious nation for spying and being shitty is 100% honest in their findings?
The US has confirmed it and presumably the EU
Both were skeptical of Israel’s video showing rockets being fired from the hospital due to their track record
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5 AKs is absolutely not enough reason to shell a hospital. That’s fucking ridiculous.
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Arbitrary? Are you insane?
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here’s a non-arbitrary limit: don’t bomb fucking hospitals.
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Oh no, not casualties! In a war?!? Whatever will we do!
War crimes of expediency are still war crimes. Just ask the Nazis we hung at Nuremberg for their occupation tactics.
But there has to be a limit, I’m not saying Israel is right but if I write the word hospital on a tank and drive it into battle then that hospital is going to get bombed, it’s possible that they’ll wait until I’ve fired a shot if I’m fighting an especially restrained army.
So since there obviously is a line so we need to think about where it is in a realistic and sensible sense.
“Israelshows alleged Hamas ‘armory’”
Again this is just CNN doing CNN things, they are going to parrot whatever they are told is the official US narrative, just like Fox would do with Trump or whatever GOP people want. I was still horrified the US and MSM went with the Israeli narrative before the investigation was over, that smelled of cronyism and covering up, pretty bad day for the Biden WH.
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Here’s a Times of Israel article with a video in it that claims to show the tunnels under the Rantisi hospital: https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-hamas-operated-command-center-likely-held-hostages-under-gaza-kids-hospital/
There’s assorted cuts and stuff can obviously be staged, but…
This is the best summary I could come up with:
BRUSSELS, Nov 12 (Reuters) - The European Union on Sunday condemned Hamas for using “hospitals and civilians as human shields” in Gaza, while also urging Israel to show “maximum restraint” to protect civilians.
Hospitals in the north of the Palestinian enclave are blockaded by Israeli forces and barely able to care for those inside, according to medical staff.
“The EU condemns the use of hospitals and civilians as human shields by Hamas,” European Union foreign policy chief Josep Borrell said in a statement issued on behalf of the 27-nation bloc.
At the same time, he urged Israel to exercise maximum restraint, stressing the obligation under international humanitarian law to protect hospitals, medical supplies and civilians inside hospitals.
“These hostilities are severely impacting hospitals and taking a horrific toll on civilians and medical staff,” Borrell warned.
“In this context, we urge Israel to exercise maximum restraint to ensure the protection of civilians.”
The original article contains 245 words, the summary contains 151 words. Saved 38%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
As usual, Hamas is to blame for everything and Israel is to blame for nothing.
Regardless of who has killed more children.
Maybe read the article before complaining
At the same time, he urged Israel to exercise maximum restraint, stressing the obligation under international humanitarian law to protect hospitals, medical supplies and civilians inside hospitals.
“These hostilities are severely impacting hospitals and taking a horrific toll on civilians and medical staff,” Borrell warned.
“Hospitals must … be supplied immediately with the most urgent medical supplies, and patients that require urgent medical care need to be evacuated safely,” he added. “In this context, we urge Israel to exercise maximum restraint to ensure the protection of civilians.”
At what point did he condemn Israel?
He said they were in violation of international law by attacking hospitals. That’s what the first sentence means. But I assume you expected something like “Israel is murdering civilians for fun and should be exterminated”?
He said they were in violation of international law by attacking hospitals.
Which is probably a wrong interpretation of international law. Since hospitals are used for military operations, their protected status vanishes.
This isn’t Halo or Call of Duty. This isn’t “red team” vs “blue team”. This isn’t a game. There is no score to be tracked and no victory or loss for who can kill more children. The only people that are “losing” in this conflict are the innocent people caught in the crossfire.
The fact that you’re implying that it’s okay for Israel or Hamas to keep killing as long as they’re not on top of some sort of “child-killing leaderboard” is absolutely sickening. I’m literally sick to my stomach even thinking about that. I could not possibly care less who killed who’s child first, killing children is wrong. Killing innocent children in retaliation to killing innocent children is wrong. There’s no “score” to settle when that “score” involves the injury or death of innocent people. Both sides fucking suck for killing innocent people.
Furthermore, I’ll reiterate my point that both sides fucking suck for killing innocent people. That is the only absolute that belongs in this conversation. Neither side is innocent in regards to deaths of innocent people, and neither side is fully to blame for the deaths of innocent people. Hamas is at fault for using innocent people as meat shields and Israel is at fault for firing anyway. Whether Hamas struck first some weeks ago or not, regardless of which “side” started this however many years ago, both Israel and Hamas are culpable for deaths of innocent people. Full stop. No scores, no “winners”, and the only “loss” is loss of life.
I never implied it was okay for either side to kill civilians.
You’re making up arguments that are easier to argue against.
restraint in what?
"Kill 20% less civilians please’ . What fuckin dumb rhetoric is this. It’s like we live the end of times and words have lost meaning
What kind of restraint can israel have? if hamas was 1% of the population, after all these atrocities it will be 99% of the population. Imagine someone killing your children and then you re supposed to go on living your life because “well shit happened”.
Israel has an incentive to exterminate a very large part of the population, especially the young male population before this is over to weaken the next hamas. If they have another plan for post-war life, it’s not clear how they imagine life with palestinians near or far.
What an incredibly shit and inhumane take
Restraint as in don’t blow up the hospital just because the terrorists are hiding in it
Finally! Not that this matters.
I really wonder how many of those 11.000+ dead people are actually active Hamas fighters. I would be very surprised if they are more than a couple of hundred.
But oh wait Hamas’ military wing is 30K, are they going to kill 30 times more?
And don’t you think that once Israel is happy with the amount of destruction on the north it would simply do the same with the south?
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isn’t israel simultaneously bragging about killing tens of thousands of Gazans and a few dozen Hamas agents?
Where?
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