Seriously I’m so confused on this. The USA has a 2 party system. You either vote for Biden or you get Trump. Abstaining from the vote you get Trump. MAGA will have a 100% turnout for their God Emperor.
Trump supports Israel 100%. Again, by not voting for Biden the reality is you’re voting for Trump who is even more supportive of Israel and will also attempt to upend democracy in the west.
You don’t have any options here that support Palestine. The reality of the situation is you either get Biden or Trump and the latter is infinitely worse for the ideal you’re trying to uphold by abstaining. That’s how politics work in the US. You might not like it, it sucks, but unfortunately that’s just the way things work.
CMV
Trumpists have been actively deflecting from their own Asshole in Chief’s genocidal support by pointing to Biden’s genocidal support. As a result, people who haven’t been paying attention are completely unaware of how much more Trump supports killing brown people.
The reality is that the two options are Genocide Lite and Literal Nazi Supporting Genocide. Not voting or voting third petty gets you Literal Nazi Supporting Genocide. There is no realistic option that gets you Palestinian support, and you can blame the two party system for that, but at the end of the day we are all being forced to decide which flavor of genocide we’d prefer.
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Because of right wingers muddying the waters to try to make Trump seem like the better option by keeping Biden front and center.
Spoiler: he’s worse than Biden.
People are not leaving the Democrat party to go to Trump.
They are leaving the Democrat party to leave the 2 party system.
They are disenfranchised, as they should be in the context.
Its a difference that Biden boot-lickers cant seem to wrap their mind around.
There’s a point to be made that NOW is not the time to make this stand. Leave the Democratic Party- and you’re handing america to trump.
Period. End of argument.
While you aren’t wrong, with all the sycophants and rural christofacists lining up downstream, when is a good time to leave the Democratic Party? The wealthy seemingly have ultimate control of both parties, regardless of social pressures, so what choice ultimately will right the ship, rather than just kick the bucket further along?
I definitely don’t want Trump, but the question still remains: how long to we have to stomach the lesser of two evils?
I also want to abolish the 2 party system. It’s the only way we will ever see true progress or stand a chance of reducing the influence of the rich.
Duverger’s Law says that voting systems with a single winner will result in two main parties emerging with votes merely drawn away by other parties.
In other words, voting 3rd party in our current system won’t make a 3rd party viable. At best it will replace one of the parties.
Instead, if you want a multi party system, the most effective way to achieve that is for you to work on getting ranked choice voting in your state.
How are there individuals who understand the Palestinian/Gaza conflict circumstances regarding Biden yet don’t have knowledge of Trump’s absolute undying support for Benjamin Netanyahu?
Because its inconvenient to their narrative.
a genuine answer from an arab who spends a lot of time around arabs:
the thought is if we don’t vote for biden now, it shows that there is an important bloc of people for whom support of palestine is non negotiable.
while this means a win for trump in 2024, in 2028 it means the democrats will have to run an anti genocide candidate if they want to win
If Trump wins, we won’t have fair elections in 2028. Do they need to see a second insurrection to get off the fence?
Absolutely this. Every election is becoming more of a zero sum game than the last. In the 24 election one of the candidates is very open about his fascist view and implementation if said views
Right? Like, just go read about Project 2025 if you somehow still think the GOP is benign. Jfc.
Or, idk, maybe remember the absolute clusterfuck that was the Trump presidency? That was only 2016-2020 so not particularly hard to remember if you’re not suffering memory loss.
Anyone who says it is worth risking Trump and the GOP gaining power again is either a fool, a fascist or racist Trump shill, ignorant, stupid, insane, suffering memory loss, experiencing cognitive decline, or an operative for a foreign government working psyops – or some combination thereof.
They’ve never ever been truly fair. But it can definitely get worse. Don’t make excuses.
Became there are people like you and the comment you’re replying to you that think they understand the conflict, but in reality just fall for propaganda.
100% agree. People saying this are either GOP shills or people that don’t understand how math & game theory work in relation to FPtP voting & think they can make a 3rd party happen if they want it badly enough.
People saying this are either GOP shills or people that don’t understand how math & game theory work
false dichotomy. i understand math and game theory, and neither of them change whether i’m going to vote for genocide. i’m also not a gop shill, but i would be, because i need the fuckin money.
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no, I’m voting against genocide. only by voting for Democrats or Republicans are you voting for genocide, as this post makes so abundantly clear.
Refusing to make a choice is still a choice.
The only options are: status quo that doesn’t do the bare minimum against genocide, or an actual fascist who is literally promising to do more genocide.
Yes I know that both options are terrible and the system is fucking garbage, but if you refuse to vote for the lesser evil you’re not taking some moral high road, you’re just enabling the worst evil
Refusing to make a choice is still a choice.
if the choice i’m making is “not endorsing a genocidal president” then i can live with that. i couldn’t live with myself if i did endorse genocide.
Again
Yes I know that both options are terrible and the system is fucking garbage, but if you refuse to vote for the lesser evil you’re not taking some moral high road, you’re just enabling the worst evil
the only people enabling evil are those who vote for it.
The only options are: status quo that doesn’t do the bare minimum against genocide, or an actual fascist who is literally promising to do more genocide.
i expect to have at least 4 names on my ballot. i don’t need to pick one of your favorite teams.
Do any of those names have a snowballs chance in hell to prevent Trump or Biden from winning the election?
In the real world, I mean, not in your imaginary perfect world.
i don’t have a crystal ball, but i do have a conscience.
Some people will refuse to pull the lever to divert the trolley from killing 10 people, because pulling the lever kills 1.
me. that’s me. i don’t murder people.
I don’t think anyone in this thread is saying that you aren’t making the choice to not let someone die.
People are just expecting you to be able to handle being asked, “Why did you let 10 people die when there was an option for you to only let 1 person die instead?”
The trolley being on the warpath isn’t your fault; but you did have the option to reduce the number of deaths by taking action. Through your choice, an objectively larger number of people suffered, died, or lost a loved one. And for some actual reason you didn’t pull the lever other than “I’m not a murderer.”
We understand you aren’t a murderer. You aren’t intending to hurt anyone. But through your action, you can reduce the number of people murdered. Don’t be surprised when people are confused at your lack of rationale.
“Why did you let 10 people die when there was an option for you to only let 1 person die instead?”
that’s not really the choice. the choice is let 10 people die or murder one person.
Don’t be surprised when people are confused at your lack of rationale.
i’m being fully rational about this for any deontological viewpoint. if you disagree with deontological ethics, then we have nothing to discuss: i don’t care to try to convince you you’re wrong, and i’ve heard all the arguments you can summon.
I remember 2016 and the dialogue around the election fairly well, and this feels nostalgic. “Maybe he won’t be so bad”* is coming after trump is elected.
*Editors note: he will bei’m not voting for him, so don’t worry.
May your sister experience an unwanted pregnancy in the Deep South, my friend.
what a thing to wish on someone who isnt voting for trump.
You either vote for Biden or you get Trump. Abstaining from the vote you get Trump. MAGA will have a 100% turnout for their God Emperor.
Also, voting 3rd party in the general election…you get Trump.
Our two-party system is awful and failing us horribly. If I had to guess, they’re just as frustrated as I am and that’s the only way they can blow off steam; make idle threats about “taking my
businessvote elsewhere”.Hopefully it’s just frustrated, idle rhetoric and they show up at the polls to vote for the only sane option that has a real chance.
Any one who is saying the wouldn’t vote for Biden because they are taking a stance against genocide is unlikely to have voted for Biden first place, or even to have voted at all, and can and should be safely ignored. They aren’t arguing in good faith.
I don’t care. Apathy is the enemy. These people spread it. They should be challenged, not let to convince people not to vote.
They aren’t arguing in good faith.
poisoning the well.
Any one who is saying the wouldn’t vote for Biden because they are taking a stance against genocide is unlikely to have voted for Biden first place, or even to have voted at all
correct
IMO: It’s not really, Trump is a genocidal maniac with a hopelessly broken moral compass. I’m not a fan of Biden but he is the less terrible choice.
Shit candidates are why the United States needs ranked choice voting instead of the busted two party first past the post system we currently have.
The thing to understand is this:
Russia has infiltrated and compromised the conservatives.
Russia and China have infiltrated and compromised the extreme leftists. Aka “tankies”. The goal is not to improve anything. The goal is for people to willingly destroy their own government to reduce the power of The West.
So the loudest voices are straight up government agents. And that propagates to the less loud influencers who are… just stupid. They know American Imperialism is bad (and it REALLY is) and see someone telling them they can do something. But they don’t know how to critically think about anything so they just parrot it.
And then you have the other aspect of horse shoe theory. Just like libertarians and fascists think THEY will come out on top, so too do a lot of the tankies. They think that they will be the autocrats who are “getting things done” rather than being under the thumb of the horrible people who take power.
I don’t think you can expect rational discourse from a collective concern.
Some people will agree with you. Some people will disagree, because at the end of the day, if you’re willing to vote for someone even when they don’t do what you like, then they have no incentive to consider anything you like.
Neither position is wrong.
Our system, which sets up two bad options, is what’s wrong.
This is ultimately a false dichotomy. We operate as if there are only two options, because no one person has the power to fix this, but instead of recognizing that the system is broken, we blame each other for not going all in on what we all admit is problematic.
In the UK, labour have a real chance of sweeping the next general election yet a whole bunch of their ministers have quit over their leader not calling for a ceasefire.
Lefties are easier target to turn on themselves over right wingers.
I am not from the US, but what are the chances of choosing a better candidate during the nomination process?
Approximately 0%, unless Biden has a stroke or something before the election.
So you’re telling me there’s a chance
You can basically forget it happening until 2028. Biden is the incumbent and sitting president and if anyone were going to make a serious attempt at taking his seat from the Dems, they’d already be campaigning and even then it would most likely be a lost cause. Barring a serious upset like an extreme medical issue or death, no other Dem will be taking over the oak office in 2024.
These are bourgeois elections in the country that’s the hub of global capitalist imperialism. The Democratic party isn’t even obliged to go with the will of the people, and the popular vote doesn’t even decide the president.
That’s how politics work in the US.
Not really, unfortunately. All these “if you don’t vote for A you’re voting for B” arguments would be a little more applicable if the US presidential election was a simple majority vote, but anyone with the most basic of US politics knowledge has heard of the Electoral College. Hillary Clinton wasn’t elected president in 2016, but not because more people voted for Trump.
And that’s without taking into the account voting suppression. Would you tell someone who can’t vote because of racist laws that they are “voting for Trump”?
Just a reminder that the popular vote was:
Donald Trump: 62,984,828
Hillary Clinton: 65,853,514A difference of only 3 million, in a vote with 127m
Now this is not to say the electoral college is not an issue here, it certainly is. But even by the standards of the popular vote it was a close race. It is important to stress to people their vote matters because you don’t want people to be wishy washy, getting this close, in a race as important as this…cause this is precisely the kind of situation where yeah, it’s very likely the electoral college could come into play.
Basically people act like it was a landslide, but we should be encouraging people to make it an actual landslide next time. Because chances are even in a system where an alternate voting element could mess things up, the popular vote will get in the way if it’s strong enough.
It’s really people trying to take a high ground and feel better about themselves.
They want to know they made a choice where the person they wanted was right. Even if that person doesn’t win, and the person who does win happens to be a person who makes it even harder for them to get what they actually wanted in the future.
They want to know they made a choice where the person they wanted was right. Even if that person doesn’t win, and the person who does win happens to be a person who makes it even harder for them to get what they actually wanted in the future.
that last bit will be true whether it’s red or blue. so, yea, i’m going to vote for the person who would do what i want them to do.
If you’re in a swing state. You vote for Biden.
If you’re not in a swing state, you vote third party.
Don’t not vote, by voting you make your intention and commitment very clear. Even if your third party candidate never has a chance, mainstream politicians may notice the interest in that third party candidates platform and adopt some of his/her policies.
Participate in your state’s primary elections. There’s a lot more diversity of policies there and you can make your voice heard there as well.
Participate in your city and state elections, the amount of money effort and attention placed on federal elections (especially presidential) is completely outsized compared to local elections. Which means the amount of influence that you can have as an individual relative to amount of power the offices that you have influence over is huge compared to the same calculation at the federal level.
Many politicians start at the state and municipal level. So your influence there can be very helpful. Also if Trumps gets some success at creating a authoritarian dystopia at the federal level, it can be mitigated at the state and municipal level. Just like how each state can make sure to protect the right of abortion despite the supreme court flip on the subject.
Participate in your state’s primary elections.
cornel west won’t be on the democrat or republican ticket. neither will jill stein.
If you’re in a swing state. You vote for Biden.
if you want to buy my vote, i gotta cover a 5k federal fine and a 5k state fine. put another 10k on top for my trouble and you can choose who i vote for!
If you’re a US citizen, consider joining the DSA. I’m a long-time member. I think it’s safe to say the DSA has, historically, been a disorganized parody of a leftist organization (as much as I love and respect many of the people in it that I’ve worked with), but things are changing. There’s an effort with momentum to turn it into a functioning political party, and not a bullshit green party style party which runs a candidate every four years while being functionally indistinguishable from a grift, but to put in the real work from the ground up to make a party that cares about winning elections and materially making our lives better.
The time to do this was 20 years ago, but we can’t keep delaying it. It’s now fully unconscionable to throw up our hands after some halfhearted discussions about FPTP and game theory every four years while actively watching our world deteriorate. There are other ways, but they don’t start at the ballot box, and they all involve organizing. This is true even if your politics and mine are different. If you care about our death machine funding a genocide, get involved with something, even if it’s the democratic party. It’s fucking boring. It feels like a larp. It’s a tedious ways to spend your Thursday nights after work. I get all that, but we need people who care about human life involved, even if our politics aren’t perfectly aligned, because that’s how you make broad, functioning, powerful coalitions that get shit done.
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Maybe you guys should stop electing a king… From an outside point of view your Congress seems kinda powerless, except for blocking stuff
They’re not powerlesss, they just lack motivation to not back the capitalist status quo.
They’re not powerless, they’re inept and frozen with inner conflict and indecision.
nothing to do about it now. congress has continually eroded its own power in order to avoid hard decisions that might cost them their next election. the have concentrated almost all the power in the executive branch, and i don’t see that changing. in fact, if they could create a department of impeachment and place it under the executive i think they would.
