Yes but the woke messages were embedded in good stories so it felt smart and natural. That is why fans of classic Trek embrace the way it is woke. Discovery on the other hand constantly puts the woke element in the center, points three spotlights at it and then paints it neon until there is no more room left for a good story and mature viewers feel treated like they were idiots. It is sad how younger fans seem to be unable to perceive this significant difference and accuse people who do of bigotry.
The first episode of Trek I ever saw was the ToS episode with aliens that had half-white and half-black faces and were engaged in a race war over which side was which. It has never been subtle, and for good reason. Nuance generally doesn’t work well with bigots. If you want to get people to examine their beliefs you need to shove the mirror in their face.
The only thing that’s changed is what is getting shoved in your face. ToS doesn’t make you uncomfortable? Good for you, you’re not a Jim Crow level racist. Some of the new stuff makes you uncomfortable? Maybe you think about why it makes you uncomfortable instead of complaining about it.
A little off the point: I actually think it’s less in your face. In the episodic series when they did something along these lines it was usually the main focus of the entire episode. With the newer serialized seasons it’s usually a b-plot. They can devote a little more time to the b-plots when they have a whole season to resolve the main story but it’s still not the main focus.
There’s also an episode where literally Abraham Lincoln shows up, talks to Uhura, and comments on how much things have changed in the future. Real subtle stuff!
I am getting too many replies now to write a full fledged answer to each, sorry. I just want to tell you that you should keep in mind that you don´t actually know me personally, that I was friends with gay dudes 30 years ago already and that you should maybe try to be less judgemental. The new stuff does not make me uncomfortable. It simply annoys me that in NuTrek cheap virtue signalling and queer baiting took the place of good sci-fi storytelling. I am fine with it if you perceive that differently though. Enjoy your favorite Star trek shows, I for myself will enjoy my DS9 rewatch.
Respectfully, no, I’m not going to “try to be less judgemental.”
I see a show that continues it’s long tradition of inclusiveness and respect for all people by including characters that are sexual and gender minorities. I then see people who claim to be fans, not just of the show, but also of what it has always been trying to do, complaining about it doing what it’s always done.
I’m going to judge. I have judged, and I’ve found you wanting.
You are of course entitled to your opinion. However, you should know that you are not in a position where your opinion could concern me in the slightest.
It should be clear to any reasonable person that I have no need whatsoever to apologize to strangers on the internet for having my own opinion. The way you take yourself way too seriously sounds pretty megalomaniacal. Also, banned for trolling.
No one is asking you for an apology, just an example.
Surely you can do that, right? This thing that’s so pervasive it’s ruined entire seasons for you, you must be able to remember one scene from one episode where it actually happens.
It should be easy, shouldn’t it? Especially since there’s no shortage of examples of old Trek being decidedly unsubtle in this thread. Strange how that user never seems to respond to those…
I disagree with you. Since I can see from your comments that challenging your ideas even a little bit makes you think everyone is a scary troll and you block them, you should go ahead and block me, too.
Oh stop playing the victim, you just don’t like that people disagree with you; asking you to actually give one single example of this wokeness-pushing of epic proportions that you said is the problem isn’t asking you to apologize – it’s asking you to give an example.
lol. Yeah… I’m gonna just believe the guy that used the term “queer baiting” unironically… For Pete’s sake, man, be at least a little more subtle with your bigotry if you’re going to play the ”I have gay friends” card.
What about Discovery felt like it had a spotlight on it more than “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield”? Or that TOS put a diverse cast front and center on the screen, including folks hailing from nations that were currently/recently enemies of the USA at the time? I grew up watching TNG, and the way Geordi turned the concept of what it meant to be ‘disabled’ on its head felt really pointed, even for child me. Likewise the dehumanization of Data.
I’m happy to gripe about worse writing, but if someone wrote a shoddy story that included a couple giraffes (because giraffes were more popular nation-wide), I wouldn’t get mad about “giraffe messages” in entertainment, I’d get mad about shit writing.
I think they’re talking about that Discovery episode where they encounter a planet of Enby people and Burnham falls in love with one of them. So woke. They even kiss.
TOS put a diverse cast front and center on the screen, including folks hailing from nations that were currently/recently enemies of the USA at the time
Yes and they had that diverse crew naturally work together as a team of professionals without loosing a word about it, instead of constantly reassuring each other and the viewer in dramatic pep talks with a lot of crying that it´s ok. That is exactly the understated wokeness I miss in NuTrek and appreciate in classic Trek.
Geordi turned the concept of what it meant to be ‘disabled’ on its head felt really pointed.
Agreed but that worked so well because Geordi being a full member of the crew was presented as something completely normal. There are no tearful pep talks to reassure Geordi that he’s a full fledged member of the crew. That would have been unnecessary, because it’s shown as just natural that he was. Another example of the understated, smart wokeness in classic Trek. This is the opposite of NuTrek wokeness, which constantly gets overstated and rubbed in the viewers face, like the viewer would be a mentally challenged bigot, who could not grasp the concepts of tolerance an humanism on their own.
I certainly agree that there’s more crying than I’m used to in Trek, but I wouldn’t call that wokeness (unless the crying was about a reason that was “woke”, I guess?). Mostly I chalk that up to popular entertainment dripping with CW style shows (for the worse, of course). That said there was a fair amount of crying/emotional outbursts from Sisko and others on DS9, especially if we take the Maquis into account - like Sisko said, it’s easy to be a saint in paradise. Doesn’t jive with the perfect crews we’ve seen on the Enterprises, but like DS9 being a run-of-the-mill station that got swept up in religious politics and galactic war, Discovery was “just” a bleeding edge science ship that went through hell, so it does kind of make sense that people would be more than a little traumatized and outburst-y.
Totally agree that the casts being treated like it was normal is a great message to send without focusing on it, but they did touch on it occasionally. In the TNG pilot itself, Geordi and Crusher talk pretty openly about his blindness IIRC, and he says something to the effect of “I was born this way”, and he rejects potential “cures”, showing how comfortable he was with what others would consider a curse.
Also there most certainly episodes reassuring Data he was part of the crew. An entire episode reassuring him he was sentient, right? It was central to his (and others’) growth over the series. Whether he was truly a sentient being or not definitely draws parallels to dehumanization in the real world, and was pretty blatant about it.
Plenty of folks on TNG had to talk through their problems - that was pretty much the point of Guinan, in a lot of ways, and even having a Betazoid on the bridge. Feelings and emotion were being pretty openly explored in a way that’s just different to the way things are now. Mental illness has over the decades been normalized in a way that is kind of incredible. Again though, the amount of crying does irk me (that much I agree with, especially when shit is literally on fire). I just don’t consider that to be wokeness in my face, just shoddy writing.
Sorry, you certainly have many good points. However, I am getting tired from replying to too many answers by too many people at this point, so I don´t have the energy to write you an adequate answer to your well written argument. Apologies.
One example would be the gender identities of Adira and Grey. Instead of just presenting it as a background detail and totally natural thing that there are NB/Trans characters on the crew (as it definitely should be in a modern Star Trek setting imo), there is a huge spotlight on their gender identities in the main plot and there is even a 2020 style pronoun talk, which feels extremely unfitting for a scenario so far in the future, when there should not be a need to discuss such things.
Then there is the presentation of Stamets and Culber, which is often more focused on their gay relationship than on their professional work as crew members, which similarly to how Adira and Gray are presented, feels like cheap queer baiting.
Maybe you could refresh my memory with an episode or some more details because I don’t remember it that way. I remember Adira stating their pronouns, everyone accepting that and using those pronouns and never mentioning it again. I’m pretty damn sure there wasn’t some Jordan Peterson type that refused to get with the program.
I’m also pretty sure there wasn’t any focus on Stamets’ and Culber’s “gay” relationship. Their relationship was part of several story elements but the gay aspect was not. Please remind me of any plots involving their relationship that would have to be changed if one of them was a woman.
You are the one making a big deal about these characters because you can’t get over their simple existence.
Also, I think it’s worth pointing out that Adira was from Earth, which at that point had left the Federation, and had become seemingly a much more paranoid place. So that Adira was uncomfortable and worried about what folks might think of them seems reasonable, since they weren’t used to living in the Federation, where being nonbinary isn’t something anyone should be worried about sharing with others.
You intentionally don´t understand the most simple arguments and just keep asking me to put in more argumentative work while all you do is dismissing my points independently of their validity. I am tired of talking to you and consider you a troll, who I will ignore from now on.
I am not going to rewatch the worst NuTrek show just so I can tell you what exact episodes that were. If you want to know, rewatch that crap yourself. Also, blocked for trolling.
I’m confused how you got to this conclusion because in my opinion, Discovery is pretty much a masterclass in treating their queer characters as normal. Stamets and Culber’s relationship is core to a lot of episodes, but the fact that they are gay is not—I can only think of a single time the word “gay” is even said. They’re full characters in their own right that just happen to be in a relationship. Queerbaiting would be if they hinted at a queer relationship but didn’t show it, but they show it plenty. They aren’t perfect either, they literally almost break up. They’re whole people.
And Adira and Grey… Adira has to come out, yes. I don’t know what’s wrong with that. You seem to think it should just be a “normal thing” that isn’t discussed, but coming out is an inevitable part of the non-binary experience. People in Star Trek aren’t mind readers, and seem to still assume binary pronouns by default. So it’s only natural that if someone wants other people to use they/them pronouns for them, they have to come out, even in the future. I think the fact that Adira was able to come out in a single brief scene and then it’s never mentioned again is great and not unnatural at all.
And Grey’s transition is alluded to as something that happened in the past, but is literally never directly mentioned in the plot. I don’t think the word “transgender” is ever uttered. He seems like the perfect trans character for you, his transness has nothing to do with who he is and is never directly mentioned but he’s just accepted for who he is. What’s wrong with his portrayal?
Its funny too because being a trill recipient makes the allegory very “conservative friendly” . They literally gained dozens of lifetimes worth of memories where their gender and birth sex were male and female. Normal trill symbiote candidates go through training in order to better retain their sense of self after they bond and better separate the memories. Adira did not have that training and was not ready for this or even the right species for it.
Riker absolutely lost himself while he had a trill implant and became the trill. Meanwhile Adira has a few hundred or more thousand years of being a mother, being a father, giving birth, and presenting as male and female and over that kind of time span even seeing gender roles and norms change and evolve. After all that they decide you know what I dont think Im quite a girl anymore but Im not a boy. Even a gender absolutist would have to give it to them.
Straight cis presenting people are the default. The fact that you dont bitch and complain every time that is shown and only when any other manifestation of gender or sexuality is, is damning. Ultimately youd rather these people be sidelined so that you and all of the other people that they make uncomfortable by just existing can pretend they dont.
Classic Trek literally had black&white people (ToS) as an analogue for racism, and a race of socially genderless people as an analogy for gender identity (TNG).
I prefer Classic Trek for sure, but it has always centred its wokeness. Writers just constantly inventing new races to talk about the social issues of the day.
I do wish the newer Trek was a bit drier. That’s what I miss the most: the boring episodes without any action happening, just characters talking and building out the universe, and yeah, wrestling with social issues.
I never had the feeling that wokeness was shoved in one’s face. Disco has other problems that are very severe. Because it’s shit. But not because of wokeness.
In the first episode of Discovery, the first officer stages a mutiny because her captain refuses to fire on the Klingons unprovoked.
That is the kind of person who doesn’t belong in Starfleet. She should be court martialed, sent back to Earth or Vulcan or wherever she wants to go, and encouraged to open a Vulcan fusion restaurant or something. I have no interest in continuing to watch that ship or those characters. I think a character like that would be fine in a different show or on a different ship. Maybe make the crew mercenaries instead of Starfleet officers. You could do Firefly in Star Trek, that would be awesome. But Discovery just doesn’t look like Trek to me.
Also the Klingons are really boring and I can’t possibly see them enjoying a bottle of bloodwine or singing poems about Kah’less. IDK replace them with Breen or something. Not every Star Trek show has to be about the Klingon War.
I get your point. You’re saying that “subliminal” wokeness is better than “in your face” wokeness because the later messes with the core of the series.
Honestly, I agree. Unless it is a show dedicated to social issues like racism, sexism or homphobia, try to keep the wokeness subliminal. Just show that it’s fine for these things to happen, that it is normal and acceptable, that it isn’t a big deal. Don’t make it the whole show, it’s just awkward.
I prefer when they show me what reality should be like. LGBTQ people in our social groups as if nothing special was happening at all. Once it becomes preachy and brainwashy, I’m out.
That’s what they did. Stamets and Culber were just there. Grey and Adira were just there. They used elements of the symbiote story as an allagory but their NB status just was. It seems like you’re making it bigger in your mind.
I’m assuming you’re not a racist or homophobic so how can something that’s true “become brainwashy”? Doesn’t brainwashing imply a reduction in critical thinking? You may not like the “preachy” way facts are presented but they are still facts. Forcefully pushing ideas is preaching, not brainwashing.
I think it is forced exposure, trying to program people. I don’t think it is bad if it helps spread tolerance, I just don’t enjoy watching stuff that forcefully pushes ideas, even if I agree with those ideas.
I think that’s exactly what the people calling this “too woke” are about. Like, exposure is so forced and obvious that it ruins the show for them. It doesn’t feel like a show anymore, more like advertisement for ideologies.
I don’t think they are saying “please no homosexuals on TV”, they are saying “please, focus on the plot, not on the social issues that surround homosexuality”.
As for my personal preference, I’ve always thought sex in movies is just awkward in general.
Since these characters were introduced people have said what you’re saying over and over. Always with the same “I don’t have a problem with gay/trans/NB but…” disclaimer. Then they refuse to give examples of the characters doing anything other than existing. This thread is a good example. Please refresh my memory. Which episode(s) focus “on the social issues that surround homosexuality.”
Outside of the scene where Adira tells Stamets their pronouns and the use of those pronouns, give me one line, in one scene, in one episode, of one season that would have to be changed if Adira was a cis straight human woman hosting the symbiote of her deceased cis straight Trill boyfriend.
Give me one line, in one scene, in one episode, of one season that would have to be changed if either Stamets or Culber was a woman.
To be clear, although I don’t remember any, I’m not saying you couldn’t find any examples. I’m just curious what constitutes “forced and obvious” plot elements that are “advertisement(s) for ideologies” that “ruins the show” for you.
Without examples all anyone hears is you bitching about the existence of these characters the way Archie Bunker would have bitched about Uhura simply existing.
It’s not ruining anything for me. I just said I understood his point. Everyone has a different threshold for what they consider preaching, it’s pretty subjective.
If he thinks that, then you should ask him. I just said I understood his point because I have felt this in the past with other shows. I’ve been on both sides of the discussion many times. After many times, you realize there’s no point in fighting about it, people won’t change their minds.
I just said my personal preference: when they act like it is totally normal and not a special event. That’s the sweet spot for me. I’m guessing some may see that as homophobia, and others may see that as brainwashing. That’s just the point I personally enjoy when it comes to these matters.
No, if I see his point doesn’t mean I agree with his point. I see it. I’ve been on his side of this discussion before.
It is totally relative, why do you need to be so divisive? I was trying to be understanding with him, I wasn’t joining a side. Just saw everyone attacking him and thought it was just a matter of personal preference not rooted in hate.
Do you think there is a series that is too woke or pushy? There’s probably someone who disagrees with you if you do, probably a whole community.
Saying that no series is too woke is also an opinion that would get a lot of disagreement.
To see their point, you would have to think there is at least something to it.
Their, and your, inability to support that point makes it nonsensical to me.
Why do you see their point? What is at least one example of “woke(nees)” or “push(iness)” that makes your see their point? Or do you just agree with them on a visceral level that requires no explanations?
You’re being downvoted, but I just wanted to let you know you’re not alone in noticing what you have. There is indeed a significant difference in the approach of classic Trek vs. what we have now. In the past, the story was the focus, and the wokeness was an addition to it. Now, the woke seems to be the focus, and it’s at the expense of the storytelling.
I actually hate the word “woke.” I’m about the most left leaning person I know and agree with the liberal messages in all Trek. But it really has destroyed the storytelling in the new stuff. It should primarily be a science fiction show, not a morality lecture.
I’m not going to argue with anyone who disagrees, I’ll just accept the downvotes, I just wanted to show a little support.
I’m not downvoting either of you, and I hope this doesn’t sound like me being argumentative, I just want to know what you’re seeing in Discovery that I haven’t seen in all the other Trek series (see me other comment in this thread, I guess). Morality lectures are central to Trek, IMHO.
You say that it is at the expense of the storytelling but to me it is the storytelling or at least an essential part of it and what makes it special.
If you prefer, there is plenty of other sci-fi where it’s just two strait white dudes using cgi to save the universe. But then that’s also not really a rich seam for storytelling.
In the past, the story was the focus, and the wokeness was an addition to it. Now, the woke seems to be the focus, and it’s at the expense of the storytelling.
It should primarily be a science fiction show, not a morality lecture.
You nailed it there! Thanks for the support, I appreciate it <3
Yes but the woke messages were embedded in good stories so it felt smart and natural. That is why fans of classic Trek embrace the way it is woke. Discovery on the other hand constantly puts the woke element in the center, points three spotlights at it and then paints it neon until there is no more room left for a good story and mature viewers feel treated like they were idiots. It is sad how younger fans seem to be unable to perceive this significant difference and accuse people who do of bigotry.
The first episode of Trek I ever saw was the ToS episode with aliens that had half-white and half-black faces and were engaged in a race war over which side was which. It has never been subtle, and for good reason. Nuance generally doesn’t work well with bigots. If you want to get people to examine their beliefs you need to shove the mirror in their face.
The only thing that’s changed is what is getting shoved in your face. ToS doesn’t make you uncomfortable? Good for you, you’re not a Jim Crow level racist. Some of the new stuff makes you uncomfortable? Maybe you think about why it makes you uncomfortable instead of complaining about it.
A little off the point: I actually think it’s less in your face. In the episodic series when they did something along these lines it was usually the main focus of the entire episode. With the newer serialized seasons it’s usually a b-plot. They can devote a little more time to the b-plots when they have a whole season to resolve the main story but it’s still not the main focus.
There’s also an episode where literally Abraham Lincoln shows up, talks to Uhura, and comments on how much things have changed in the future. Real subtle stuff!
I am getting too many replies now to write a full fledged answer to each, sorry. I just want to tell you that you should keep in mind that you don´t actually know me personally, that I was friends with gay dudes 30 years ago already and that you should maybe try to be less judgemental. The new stuff does not make me uncomfortable. It simply annoys me that in NuTrek cheap virtue signalling and queer baiting took the place of good sci-fi storytelling. I am fine with it if you perceive that differently though. Enjoy your favorite Star trek shows, I for myself will enjoy my DS9 rewatch.
Respectfully, no, I’m not going to “try to be less judgemental.”
I see a show that continues it’s long tradition of inclusiveness and respect for all people by including characters that are sexual and gender minorities. I then see people who claim to be fans, not just of the show, but also of what it has always been trying to do, complaining about it doing what it’s always done.
I’m going to judge. I have judged, and I’ve found you wanting.
You are of course entitled to your opinion. However, you should know that you are not in a position where your opinion could concern me in the slightest.
You seemed concerned when you tried to tell me what to do.
Concerned enough to claim a
blackgay friend to excuse yourself.It should be clear to any reasonable person that I have no need whatsoever to apologize to strangers on the internet for having my own opinion. The way you take yourself way too seriously sounds pretty megalomaniacal. Also, banned for trolling.
No one is asking you for an apology, just an example.
Surely you can do that, right? This thing that’s so pervasive it’s ruined entire seasons for you, you must be able to remember one scene from one episode where it actually happens.
It should be easy, shouldn’t it? Especially since there’s no shortage of examples of old Trek being decidedly unsubtle in this thread. Strange how that user never seems to respond to those…
I disagree with you. Since I can see from your comments that challenging your ideas even a little bit makes you think everyone is a scary troll and you block them, you should go ahead and block me, too.
Oh stop playing the victim, you just don’t like that people disagree with you; asking you to actually give one single example of this wokeness-pushing of epic proportions that you said is the problem isn’t asking you to apologize – it’s asking you to give an example.
lol. Yeah… I’m gonna just believe the guy that used the term “queer baiting” unironically… For Pete’s sake, man, be at least a little more subtle with your bigotry if you’re going to play the ”I have gay friends” card.
What about Discovery felt like it had a spotlight on it more than “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield”? Or that TOS put a diverse cast front and center on the screen, including folks hailing from nations that were currently/recently enemies of the USA at the time? I grew up watching TNG, and the way Geordi turned the concept of what it meant to be ‘disabled’ on its head felt really pointed, even for child me. Likewise the dehumanization of Data.
I’m happy to gripe about worse writing, but if someone wrote a shoddy story that included a couple giraffes (because giraffes were more popular nation-wide), I wouldn’t get mad about “giraffe messages” in entertainment, I’d get mad about shit writing.
um are you forgetting the extremely gratuitous scene in the first season where two men brushed their teeth SIDE BY SIDE
for real though you won’t ever get an actual example from the show from these guys because it doesnt exist
I think they’re talking about that Discovery episode where they encounter a planet of Enby people and Burnham falls in love with one of them. So woke. They even kiss.
Uhm, my comment just below this one? cough cough
Also:
It´s shown as normal there are no pep talks and there is no crying but I start to think that you will never get those nuances.
You bring up some interesting points.
Yes and they had that diverse crew naturally work together as a team of professionals without loosing a word about it, instead of constantly reassuring each other and the viewer in dramatic pep talks with a lot of crying that it´s ok. That is exactly the understated wokeness I miss in NuTrek and appreciate in classic Trek.
Agreed but that worked so well because Geordi being a full member of the crew was presented as something completely normal. There are no tearful pep talks to reassure Geordi that he’s a full fledged member of the crew. That would have been unnecessary, because it’s shown as just natural that he was. Another example of the understated, smart wokeness in classic Trek. This is the opposite of NuTrek wokeness, which constantly gets overstated and rubbed in the viewers face, like the viewer would be a mentally challenged bigot, who could not grasp the concepts of tolerance an humanism on their own.
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.
I certainly agree that there’s more crying than I’m used to in Trek, but I wouldn’t call that wokeness (unless the crying was about a reason that was “woke”, I guess?). Mostly I chalk that up to popular entertainment dripping with CW style shows (for the worse, of course). That said there was a fair amount of crying/emotional outbursts from Sisko and others on DS9, especially if we take the Maquis into account - like Sisko said, it’s easy to be a saint in paradise. Doesn’t jive with the perfect crews we’ve seen on the Enterprises, but like DS9 being a run-of-the-mill station that got swept up in religious politics and galactic war, Discovery was “just” a bleeding edge science ship that went through hell, so it does kind of make sense that people would be more than a little traumatized and outburst-y.
Totally agree that the casts being treated like it was normal is a great message to send without focusing on it, but they did touch on it occasionally. In the TNG pilot itself, Geordi and Crusher talk pretty openly about his blindness IIRC, and he says something to the effect of “I was born this way”, and he rejects potential “cures”, showing how comfortable he was with what others would consider a curse.
Also there most certainly episodes reassuring Data he was part of the crew. An entire episode reassuring him he was sentient, right? It was central to his (and others’) growth over the series. Whether he was truly a sentient being or not definitely draws parallels to dehumanization in the real world, and was pretty blatant about it.
Plenty of folks on TNG had to talk through their problems - that was pretty much the point of Guinan, in a lot of ways, and even having a Betazoid on the bridge. Feelings and emotion were being pretty openly explored in a way that’s just different to the way things are now. Mental illness has over the decades been normalized in a way that is kind of incredible. Again though, the amount of crying does irk me (that much I agree with, especially when shit is literally on fire). I just don’t consider that to be wokeness in my face, just shoddy writing.
Sorry, you certainly have many good points. However, I am getting tired from replying to too many answers by too many people at this point, so I don´t have the energy to write you an adequate answer to your well written argument. Apologies.
Thank you for saying that: it’s been interesting to see things from another perspective.
it would help your case if you could give a few examples of this happening
One example would be the gender identities of Adira and Grey. Instead of just presenting it as a background detail and totally natural thing that there are NB/Trans characters on the crew (as it definitely should be in a modern Star Trek setting imo), there is a huge spotlight on their gender identities in the main plot and there is even a 2020 style pronoun talk, which feels extremely unfitting for a scenario so far in the future, when there should not be a need to discuss such things.
Then there is the presentation of Stamets and Culber, which is often more focused on their gay relationship than on their professional work as crew members, which similarly to how Adira and Gray are presented, feels like cheap queer baiting.
Maybe you could refresh my memory with an episode or some more details because I don’t remember it that way. I remember Adira stating their pronouns, everyone accepting that and using those pronouns and never mentioning it again. I’m pretty damn sure there wasn’t some Jordan Peterson type that refused to get with the program.
I’m also pretty sure there wasn’t any focus on Stamets’ and Culber’s “gay” relationship. Their relationship was part of several story elements but the gay aspect was not. Please remind me of any plots involving their relationship that would have to be changed if one of them was a woman.
You are the one making a big deal about these characters because you can’t get over their simple existence.
And that was the end of it. Horrific, isn’t it? I’m sure Nacktmull would have blocked the characters for trolling if they could.
Also, I think it’s worth pointing out that Adira was from Earth, which at that point had left the Federation, and had become seemingly a much more paranoid place. So that Adira was uncomfortable and worried about what folks might think of them seems reasonable, since they weren’t used to living in the Federation, where being nonbinary isn’t something anyone should be worried about sharing with others.
You intentionally don´t understand the most simple arguments and just keep asking me to put in more argumentative work while all you do is dismissing my points independently of their validity. I am tired of talking to you and consider you a troll, who I will ignore from now on.
No, I’m asking for an example. Just one.
I’m not asking for any more arguments. I understand your position completely.
I just gave two examples, stop the trolling or get blocked …
Troll
which episodes main plot is about gender identity i cant find it
I am not going to rewatch the worst NuTrek show just so I can tell you what exact episodes that were. If you want to know, rewatch that crap yourself. Also, blocked for trolling.
I’m confused how you got to this conclusion because in my opinion, Discovery is pretty much a masterclass in treating their queer characters as normal. Stamets and Culber’s relationship is core to a lot of episodes, but the fact that they are gay is not—I can only think of a single time the word “gay” is even said. They’re full characters in their own right that just happen to be in a relationship. Queerbaiting would be if they hinted at a queer relationship but didn’t show it, but they show it plenty. They aren’t perfect either, they literally almost break up. They’re whole people.
And Adira and Grey… Adira has to come out, yes. I don’t know what’s wrong with that. You seem to think it should just be a “normal thing” that isn’t discussed, but coming out is an inevitable part of the non-binary experience. People in Star Trek aren’t mind readers, and seem to still assume binary pronouns by default. So it’s only natural that if someone wants other people to use they/them pronouns for them, they have to come out, even in the future. I think the fact that Adira was able to come out in a single brief scene and then it’s never mentioned again is great and not unnatural at all.
And Grey’s transition is alluded to as something that happened in the past, but is literally never directly mentioned in the plot. I don’t think the word “transgender” is ever uttered. He seems like the perfect trans character for you, his transness has nothing to do with who he is and is never directly mentioned but he’s just accepted for who he is. What’s wrong with his portrayal?
Its funny too because being a trill recipient makes the allegory very “conservative friendly” . They literally gained dozens of lifetimes worth of memories where their gender and birth sex were male and female. Normal trill symbiote candidates go through training in order to better retain their sense of self after they bond and better separate the memories. Adira did not have that training and was not ready for this or even the right species for it.
Riker absolutely lost himself while he had a trill implant and became the trill. Meanwhile Adira has a few hundred or more thousand years of being a mother, being a father, giving birth, and presenting as male and female and over that kind of time span even seeing gender roles and norms change and evolve. After all that they decide you know what I dont think Im quite a girl anymore but Im not a boy. Even a gender absolutist would have to give it to them.
Straight cis presenting people are the default. The fact that you dont bitch and complain every time that is shown and only when any other manifestation of gender or sexuality is, is damning. Ultimately youd rather these people be sidelined so that you and all of the other people that they make uncomfortable by just existing can pretend they dont.
hey look its the guy from the meme
Hey look, a person who missed my point entirely.
Classic Trek literally had black&white people (ToS) as an analogue for racism, and a race of socially genderless people as an analogy for gender identity (TNG).
I prefer Classic Trek for sure, but it has always centred its wokeness. Writers just constantly inventing new races to talk about the social issues of the day.
I do wish the newer Trek was a bit drier. That’s what I miss the most: the boring episodes without any action happening, just characters talking and building out the universe, and yeah, wrestling with social issues.
I never had the feeling that wokeness was shoved in one’s face. Disco has other problems that are very severe. Because it’s shit. But not because of wokeness.
I mean I haven’t watched it all, but what I saw of disco, it seemed like it had fewer instances of explicit wokeness than TNG.
In the first episode of Discovery, the first officer stages a mutiny because her captain refuses to fire on the Klingons unprovoked.
That is the kind of person who doesn’t belong in Starfleet. She should be court martialed, sent back to Earth or Vulcan or wherever she wants to go, and encouraged to open a Vulcan fusion restaurant or something. I have no interest in continuing to watch that ship or those characters. I think a character like that would be fine in a different show or on a different ship. Maybe make the crew mercenaries instead of Starfleet officers. You could do Firefly in Star Trek, that would be awesome. But Discovery just doesn’t look like Trek to me.
Also the Klingons are really boring and I can’t possibly see them enjoying a bottle of bloodwine or singing poems about Kah’less. IDK replace them with Breen or something. Not every Star Trek show has to be about the Klingon War.
I get your point. You’re saying that “subliminal” wokeness is better than “in your face” wokeness because the later messes with the core of the series.
Honestly, I agree. Unless it is a show dedicated to social issues like racism, sexism or homphobia, try to keep the wokeness subliminal. Just show that it’s fine for these things to happen, that it is normal and acceptable, that it isn’t a big deal. Don’t make it the whole show, it’s just awkward.
I prefer when they show me what reality should be like. LGBTQ people in our social groups as if nothing special was happening at all. Once it becomes preachy and brainwashy, I’m out.
That’s what they did. Stamets and Culber were just there. Grey and Adira were just there. They used elements of the symbiote story as an allagory but their NB status just was. It seems like you’re making it bigger in your mind.
I’m assuming you’re not a racist or homophobic so how can something that’s true “become brainwashy”? Doesn’t brainwashing imply a reduction in critical thinking? You may not like the “preachy” way facts are presented but they are still facts. Forcefully pushing ideas is preaching, not brainwashing.
I think it is forced exposure, trying to program people. I don’t think it is bad if it helps spread tolerance, I just don’t enjoy watching stuff that forcefully pushes ideas, even if I agree with those ideas.
I think that’s exactly what the people calling this “too woke” are about. Like, exposure is so forced and obvious that it ruins the show for them. It doesn’t feel like a show anymore, more like advertisement for ideologies.
I don’t think they are saying “please no homosexuals on TV”, they are saying “please, focus on the plot, not on the social issues that surround homosexuality”.
As for my personal preference, I’ve always thought sex in movies is just awkward in general.
Since these characters were introduced people have said what you’re saying over and over. Always with the same “I don’t have a problem with gay/trans/NB but…” disclaimer. Then they refuse to give examples of the characters doing anything other than existing. This thread is a good example. Please refresh my memory. Which episode(s) focus “on the social issues that surround homosexuality.”
Outside of the scene where Adira tells Stamets their pronouns and the use of those pronouns, give me one line, in one scene, in one episode, of one season that would have to be changed if Adira was a cis straight human woman hosting the symbiote of her deceased cis straight Trill boyfriend.
Give me one line, in one scene, in one episode, of one season that would have to be changed if either Stamets or Culber was a woman.
To be clear, although I don’t remember any, I’m not saying you couldn’t find any examples. I’m just curious what constitutes “forced and obvious” plot elements that are “advertisement(s) for ideologies” that “ruins the show” for you.
Without examples all anyone hears is you bitching about the existence of these characters the way Archie Bunker would have bitched about Uhura simply existing.
It’s not ruining anything for me. I just said I understood his point. Everyone has a different threshold for what they consider preaching, it’s pretty subjective.
If he thinks that, then you should ask him. I just said I understood his point because I have felt this in the past with other shows. I’ve been on both sides of the discussion many times. After many times, you realize there’s no point in fighting about it, people won’t change their minds.
I just said my personal preference: when they act like it is totally normal and not a special event. That’s the sweet spot for me. I’m guessing some may see that as homophobia, and others may see that as brainwashing. That’s just the point I personally enjoy when it comes to these matters.
If you see his point you should be able to give one example of “preaching” other than the characters existence.
No, if I see his point doesn’t mean I agree with his point. I see it. I’ve been on his side of this discussion before.
It is totally relative, why do you need to be so divisive? I was trying to be understanding with him, I wasn’t joining a side. Just saw everyone attacking him and thought it was just a matter of personal preference not rooted in hate.
Do you think there is a series that is too woke or pushy? There’s probably someone who disagrees with you if you do, probably a whole community.
Saying that no series is too woke is also an opinion that would get a lot of disagreement.
You see? These are opinions.
To see their point, you would have to think there is at least something to it.
Their, and your, inability to support that point makes it nonsensical to me.
Why do you see their point? What is at least one example of “woke(nees)” or “push(iness)” that makes your see their point? Or do you just agree with them on a visceral level that requires no explanations?
Yup, exactly my point.
You’re being downvoted, but I just wanted to let you know you’re not alone in noticing what you have. There is indeed a significant difference in the approach of classic Trek vs. what we have now. In the past, the story was the focus, and the wokeness was an addition to it. Now, the woke seems to be the focus, and it’s at the expense of the storytelling.
I actually hate the word “woke.” I’m about the most left leaning person I know and agree with the liberal messages in all Trek. But it really has destroyed the storytelling in the new stuff. It should primarily be a science fiction show, not a morality lecture.
I’m not going to argue with anyone who disagrees, I’ll just accept the downvotes, I just wanted to show a little support.
I’m not downvoting either of you, and I hope this doesn’t sound like me being argumentative, I just want to know what you’re seeing in Discovery that I haven’t seen in all the other Trek series (see me other comment in this thread, I guess). Morality lectures are central to Trek, IMHO.
You say that it is at the expense of the storytelling but to me it is the storytelling or at least an essential part of it and what makes it special.
If you prefer, there is plenty of other sci-fi where it’s just two strait white dudes using cgi to save the universe. But then that’s also not really a rich seam for storytelling.
What’s the difference?
You nailed it there! Thanks for the support, I appreciate it <3