We need to exert more pressure on apple and eu to not remove PWAs. Every signature counts, please sign and share EU has already started a preliminary investigation on this http://archive.today/2024.02.26-223134/https://www.ft.com/content/d2f7328c-5851-4f16-8f8d-93f0098b6adc
The company said cutting off PWAs was part of an effort to comply with the Digital Markets Act, arguing browsers other than its own Safari software would expose users to security and privacy risks that were not permitted under the law.
They are so full of shit, it’s unbelievable! Are they really claiming that their own browser is THE ONLY legal browser there is?!
It’s blatant anti-competitive behavior and anybody who cares about antitrust should be outraged about this and similar efforts. Getting legal protection for such decisions is nothing but regulatory capture.
Yes.
Move away from apple products & taste the freedom…
The problem is the only alternative (on phones) is handing over all my data to Google, the world’s largest ad company. I’m not sure that’s better…
Desktop is easy. Install Linux. But on phones, there’s 2 bad realistic choices.
almost every apple user says shit like this while using Gmail, Google docs, and the Google app on their phone and blindly giving Apple their data. let’s be real for a sec and not pretend most Apple users give a flying fuck that Google tracks them. if a user truly cared about privacy, they would eventually come to the conclusion that it doesn’t matter Apple or Google, privacy means not giving your data to ultra mega corps. so owning an iPhone isn’t adequate for privacy either. both googled Android and iOS give your data back to their respective companies. neither are good for your privacy. one day when Apple start changing their tune on privacy policies, Apple fan boys who have put their their whole lives into the apple ecosystem will realize they put all their eggs in one basket.
Have any evidence that both are the same regarding privacy or just your personal feelings?
one day when Apple start changing their tune on privacy policies
I don’t think this is a fair point, unless someone was making the claim that Apple is some benevolent do-good company out of the kindess of their own hearts. No one really makes those claims though, I think most who choose their products for privacy reasons simple thing they are better than the other of the main 2 options, and that like any corporation needs to be watched closely. Just because I chose an Apple device at this time does not mean I advocate that they will always be a better choice for privacy (or any number of characteristics someone may care about when choosing a phone).
almost every apple user says shit like this while using Gmail, Google docs, and the Google app on their phone
Again, just your feelings. Maybe statistically it’s even true that most do, but at least there is a choice on these things. I can and do avoid all of these, the only things I load from google are tracking scripts embedded in websites that make it through several layers of blocking.
privacy means not giving your data to ultra mega corps
Not sure this is true, surely there are large corporations that are at least better than others with regard to privacy. It would be especially foolish to assume the inverse of this, that just because a company is small that they will respect privacy or act better.
I work as a mobile dev. particularly in ad-tech and security. at my comp, marketers spend 10x more on ads to iOS than Androids in the US. meaning, more advertisers come to us and tell us we want us to target more iOS users with the budget.
and most do consider apple the benevolent do-good company and many do make the claim. Apple uses privacy as marketing and the result is many people blindly trust them and their devices or at least assume the competition is flagrantly out to get them. you seem to have your pulse on things but that’s not true for most iPhones users, even those who say they care about privacy.
you also can’t say it’s my feelings and then say it’s probably statistically true at the same time lol it’s is true and most people on ios still use Google front and center on their mobile experience.
while you’re not sure if that’s true, I AM sure it’s true. privacy means your data stays with you. period. the best option is not giving people your data to begin with.
Pixel + GrapheneOS
You mean rather than handing it over to Apple…
For apple owners, flexing on “the poors” is their definition of freedom.
It seems the solution is simple. Don’t use apple products anymore. Windows or linux.
Unlike apple, there’s ways to make windows private and secure and most distros of linux are mostly private and mostly secure
Windows is the one where I need an account to install and that spies on me and throws ads in my face, that one?
Like I said, there’s ways to make it private. And there’s ways to block the ads. There’s ways to use it without a Microsoft account too.
Apple devices have a second network adapter to bypass your VPN and any adblocking software you have to serve you locally relevant ads.
second network adapter
Source? A quick search didn’t turn up anything.
search results are always being tampered with. Which search engine did you use? They may have back-peddled on that due to security concerns…or maybe someone in the executive room has a soul and convinced the others not to do it.
Or maybe they’re already doing it and there aren’t any apple users that know about it, because unlike windows and linux, you have no control and no way of getting control over your apple devices.
I checked too. Can you use your engines to source the claim?
It’s very interesting but I would’ve thought somebody would’ve Wiresharked it or seen the suspicious traffic hitting their router (perhaps).
You don’t need an account. De-bloating scripts take care of most other annoyances. You can fairly easily beat windows into submission
You don’t need an account.
Technically true but worthless to your average consumer. You need to interrupt the installation process, enter a command in a terminal after knowing how to access the terminal and then you can use a local account.
This is worthless to your average person.
The same argument applies when Linux neckbeards waddle out of a basement to declare something is simple; just open terminal and do Y.
The average consumer doesn’t know what NTFS or FAT32 is. I don’t think they’ll understand the privacy implications of Windows reporting.
Not tried in a while but it used to just be a case of leaving it disconnected from the net during setup.
Failing that you can still sign up with a throwaway account and convert it to local in the options after installation iirc. It’s not ideal but it’s still something at least.
There are additional steps now which I mentioned.
your average consumer
People aren’t “consumers” A consumer is a gaping maw that eats everything until there’s nothing left.
People are people. They’re home users, they’re customers, they’re clients, they’re citizens, they’re legal residents. But they are not now or will they ever be “consumers”
Consumer noun
a person who buys goods or uses services
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/consumer
Please link the dictionary your definition comes from.
Last time I checked you could sign in without a Microsoft account by deliberately interrupting your internet connection while setting up Windows.
They even have an offline installer mode with local account only. Just need to download the correct image from the Microsoft server.
Too bad when more and more people buy Apple phones for some reason, well at least where I live (which is the poorer part of central Europe), I have no idea how people can spend this kind of money for a 4 or 5 year phone, when you can buy something more capable for the same money and you will actually know it will get supported with updates for more than 2 years
Can’t wait for this to be more widespread in the future to the point iMessage will be the messaging standard
Same reason poor people buy overpriced designer handbags. Status symbol…
Yup, those status symbols are for poor and upper middle class people.
- poor - a few nice things makes you appreciate them a lot
- upper middle class - no need to save money on such things, so you get “the best” or whatever
- rich - you get bespoke stuff, “designer” stuff is for plebs
- middle class - “a few nice things” isn’t as good as “lots of pretty good things” and a funded retirement
Source:
- poor - my in-laws
- upper middle class - DINKs I work with, wealthy neighbors
- rich - movies
- middle class - me
It’s mostly a moot point anyway. The vast majority of people who buy apple products “for some reason” will have no frame of reference or desire to learn what has changed as far as web apps are concerned.
Except I live in central/eastern Europe and most of these people were android users
It definitely is just a brand thing and the fact they maybe bought a shitty budget phone and then went straight for the iPhone 11s/12s and thought “this is so good and android sucks”, because that’s just the fact the price is 4 times higher compared to the old phone
For example for the same price you can get a pixel 7 or an iPhone 12 (or an Samsung A54, S20 FE or a flip 3, which aren’t that great considering they are on sale currently, and I’m comparing this price to the normal prices of the other two), imo the pixel is a lot better value than the iPhone in that case
Also the retailer in question is czc.cz, probably the best retailer in Czechia for tech because others just focus on appliances or aren’t as good (but tbh they do quite suck since they just for some reason have crazy prices or don’t have some things other retailers here and around the world have)
What I always found odd is that many people will try Android. And at the first problem they’ll switch to iPhone.
However the iPhone may demonstrate the same exact problem, among many more, yet they just deal with it anyway.
This topic is about mobile devices, not desktop. Last I checked, Windows and Linux aren’t mobile OS’s.
Android is LTS kernel + Google patches. I know it’s not the flavor of Linux you are talking about, but most of my apps are side loaded via F-Droid and a few from Aurora as a Play store proxy on a de-Googled ROM (GrapheneOS). There is no walled garden here.
The most relevant part to this discussion is that Android doesn’t restrict Web browsers. On Apple, all Web browsers, even Firefox, are nothing but reskins of Safari.
So their restrictions on Web apps affects all Web browsers on IOS because they only allow their own html engine.
It’s absolutely insane how far we have fallen from the 90’s. Back then MS got in trouble just for including a browser with the OS. Now Apple has the majority market share in the US and is allowed to not only to bundle their own browser, but doesn’t allow any other browser other than their own.
While you’re right about Android not restricting browsers, the context that is missing here is that the EU is (rightfully) forcing Apple to allow actual alternative web browsers/engines. In doing this, Apple is claiming that it’s too hard to support pwas while complying with the EU rulings.
It’s utter bullshit, and pwas should continue to be supported in safari and other browsers on iOS, but Apple’s just gotta be a spiteful asshole while complying with the letter of the EU law.
I live in the United States, currently use iOS devices, and regularly use pwas. It’s pretty unlikely my next phone will be an Apple device. I’ll probably end up with a pixel running Graphene.
There are mobile Linux distros.
I am looking forward to installing Ubuntu Touch on my device:
https://ubuntu-touch.io/
https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/There are also a bunch of others, which I haven’t looked into.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_for_mobile_devicesYup, and Linux specific devices: Purism Librem 5, Pinephone, and Pinephone Pro. I was hoping to replace my phone with one this year, but they’re not quite there yet for what I need, but I’ll probably get one anyway to mess around with.
Android is linux.
You know what they mean.
Maybe now, but Postmarket, Ubuntu phone, and Purism could be relevant in the future
Windows is a disgrace.
Why windows… apple does a better job in general and that’s saying something
“In general” isn’t really a metric you can use to compare operating systems.
Apple isn’t an operating system
How is Windows ever an option? What a troll
Although I agree with you it is not a good choice.
Depending on your threat model it is acceptable. Everyone has different trade offs.
Not only about threat models, some software is simply available for Windows only. If you need it for work, you’re stuck, and that’s that.
Firefox doesn’t even support pwa, this is a weird community to post this
Firefox for Android supports PWAs, only Desktop Firefox dropped the support
And there is FirefoxPWA, an extension to add pretty solid PWA support on desktop.
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Which honestly makes sense, what’s the point of PWA on desktop?
Installing web apps that should really be their own apps and not confined to a tab in your browser. Especially on Linux for things like Notion that you’ll need often and accessible from the dash or task bar.
Web apps are awesome on desktop especially when common clients like Skype and Slack are absolute fucking shit with zero dev time spent on them because Electron is a lazy alternative despite being shit software that needs to fucking die.
Thankfully --no-remote parameter still sort of works to make Firefox semi usable as a web app.
Didn’t slack just revamp their entire UI? And also what’s functionally wrong with it? I haven’t had any issues with slack
After years of using it, there was only once a brief release in which screen sharing actually worked. The only way I can share screen at the moment is by launching slack in any of chrome based browsers. None of the apps work. Not the native one, not the flatpak, not the snap.
Yeah but it’s as buggy as hell
I love how somehow electron is the lazy way while web apps isn’t, even though electron is just an executable with chromium bundled
And made significantly worse by a) locking you into using a restricted version of the browser made by a shitty company. b) laging noticeably behind that browser in development c) using custom apis for performing tasks already available in any browser like interacting with microphone, camera etc d) breaking perfectly working components that rely on OS apis in regular browsers like screen sharing, video acceleration, etc e) some of the above is partially responsible for Electron being totally broken on certain combinations of OS/WM/hardware where regular browsers work prefectly fine
I can keep going, but my point is all these pointless sacrifices are supposedly there to save dev team a bit of time instead of designing a properly working website and just using a web app or allocating some time to build a functional native app.
Fuck Google and fuck electron. It’s just a pathetic attempt to mine more data from people using pseudo app.
I agree that ElectronJS is shit but the idea behind isn’t bad. See tauri, it achieved the same thing but better
Source: I’m a developer forced to also work with electron
How is a web app any better than an electron app? Electron is just a wrapper for a web app.
I actually would love to have it since I’m on Linux. My options are sometimes nothing, 3rd party packaged version, broken or slow startup time. (Most of the time it’s just fine though)
Having everything as cached Web pages with notifications, working camera, mic and screen sharing is very good.
What’s the difference to open it in your own browser then?
It doesn’t create a new entry in the taskbar with a separate icon and I can’t target it as easily for “Open on this virtual desktop” settings. Links don’t open in another tab of the window you use only for an application. Shortcuts usually function better also.
Those are just some things of the top of my head
Mmh I see! I used a tool to convert the website to an electron package (for Linux), but the experience was just the same as using the browser so I just went with that tbf
I’ve used some of those also. I’ve had mixed experiences with them since some applications always open stuff in a tab which you can only get to and close with shortcuts and the favicon not being used by default on Wayland. I mean those are very minor though hahaha.
Mostly the same as on phones.
Basically the same point as Electron/Tauri, make a web app feel like a native app by getting rid of the typical browser UI to focus on the content. I’m pretty sure they usually integrate with OS features, like launchers, so you don’t need to bookmark it in your browser, you just open like any other app.
Developers can focus on PWA for phones and desktop.
What’s the point of it on phones?
Single app for all platforms, without the baggage and issues of the cross-native solutions.
They’re actually secure too. It’s always interesting to me how iphone owners are so concerned about security and privacy, right up until Apple tells them not to.
I’ve had an Apple user on here try to tell me that PWAs would open new security issues if they could be installed by any browser. They didn’t want to accept that a PWA would need both a browser exploit and an iOS exploit to have the same malicious potential as an iOS app has with just an iOS exploit. But they didn’t care that literally any website has the same potential for exploitation as PWAs do.
I genuinely don’t understand how you can get to this understanding without willfully ignoring how these things work.
Right…
Moving the app outside the confinement of official distribution channel/getting rid of 20/30% of store tax?
Isn’t that what’s happening in the EU?
You don’t have to rely on stupid “app” stores
I am using https://lichess.org/ and prefer it over the native iOS App for this free chess website. It is in fact a smoothly running PWA and even supports notifications (e.g. to remind one to move in correspondence games).
Same goes with Voyager ( https://vger.app/ ), that was used to create this post.
F* you, Apple!
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Same goes with Voyager ( https://vger.app/ ), that was used to create this post.
Voyager is the best PWA I’ve ever seen.
Thank you Tim Apple
This is so frustrating because this is a big hit to browsers like firefox because Apple has such a large userbase, but this same userbase does not give a shit, and this is because they bought an apple in the first place. Frustrating
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Firefox on Desktop doesn’t support PWAs
Apparently Firefox on Android does
A PWA installed with Firefox on Android does not appear in the app launcher, but only on the home screen. I don’t know whether this is the fault of Firefox or Android but it’s a major flaw.
Hmmmm. I can see how that’s not ideal and how it would bother some people.
It really just adds a shortcut right? How hard would it be to add a second shortcut in the app launcher?
It would need to be registered as an app, and a shortcut isn’t an app.
Ok I understand. Well I guess it seems like there is room for improvement then.
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There is a project on github that adds that function.
you’re a cunt Tim
They are not sabotaging “web apps” (aka websites), you just need to save the website to the homescreen if you want to use a web app, (this is both quicker and takes up less storage on your device so it is better for the end-user).
They are removing these “apps” from the appstore because they are not native apps.
PWAs (Progressive Web Apps) are their own categories of websites and they do indeed have the ability to behave like an actual app. They are much more than just a shortcut, which apple is reducing them to.
On android, my PWA that I developed for fun can go full screen and appear as though a browser isn’t wrapping the page, I can send notifications, I can access the microphone and camera, I can do nearly everything you could expect an app to do, I can support offline mode, I can store data locally, and I can manage my PWAs permissions as well as uninstall my app at an OS level. My entire family uses my PWA, and they see it as an app.
Are there some things native apps can do that PWAs can’t? Absolutely, but that is not the point. PWAs are an open and clearly defined technology to the web. Windows supports them as well.
Apple is refusing to accept that though. They are removing notifications, badges, etc, and reducing them to what you have described, just a shortcut to a Safari window. They are citing security concerns even though other operating systems are able to implement security around them just fine.
The real issue is Apple wants more control over how you use your device and is acting against the consumer.
On android, my PWA that I developed for fun can go full screen and appear as though a browser isn’t wrapping the page
That is literally how I am using kbin.social right now even though it’s just a website
I can send notifications, I can access the microphone and camera, I can do nearly everything you could expect an app to do
All of those are defined in the web spec as well so you wouldn’t need an app for that (if apple implemented all of them, not sure if they have)
I can support offline mode
Your cached web page can do that too (even though most web pages don’t because it’s not a common usecase)
I can store data locally
Cookies have existed for much longer than the iPhone
uninstall my app at an OS level.
A website added to your home page basically acts like an app: it has an icon on your home screen and you can longpress > delete it just like apps
Badges might be the only valid complaint (I don’t know if they are part of the web spec)
[Apple] is acting against the consumer.
Not sure how this is hurting the consumer. This has been announced many years ago and devs haven’t been able to publish new or update old web apps for ages, so this change only applies to those very old apps still on the appstore.
The distinction is web workers and offline mode.
It means your PWA can preload everything it needs to run offline, and you can actually use it offline. That is different from a “cached website” which can only cache the pages you’ve already visited and otherwise does not allow you to update data locally.
Your website can just preload all pages needed for offline mode
