We do, however, have a framework of references regarding the other natural mysteries humans once ascribed to gods having elegant solutions rooted in the hard sciences. We searched the storm clouds and didn’t find Thor. We’ve dug boreholes and didn’t find Hades. We’ve studied the sun and haven’t found Ra. Human history is chock full of gods and “higher powers” to explain the unknown, and as we learned more about the world the less relevant they became. We learned sacrificing goats to a god does not make it rain, and now understand the natural and mundane systems that do. There’s no reason to believe that the creation of matter or “something from nothing” as you put it is any different.
Our extremely advanced collection of scientific knowledge doesn’t even attempt to explain anything prior to the big bang. The models simply don’t apply.
In the 20th century, many made similar arguments regarding quantum mechanics. Einstein famously remarked “God doesn’t play dice”, because he didn’t see how uncertainty could be a fundamental aspect of physics. Everything we knew about physics up until that point involved definitive calculations which provided a determinate result. Turns out he was wrong.
I try to avoid hubris, and in this situation it’s pretty easy for me to recognize and avoid. My question for you is, what is your incentive to make such a definitive claim in the absence of certainty? My suspicion is it has something to do with OPs original claim that atheists choose to believe that God doesn’t exist due to emotional reasons, rather than rational ones.
Let’s say for example that before there was space time, outside of the known universe that there was a giant space whale. This space whale ate dark energy and as it passed through its digestive system it created matter. Turns out, this is how the universe started. Is the space whale God? It created all life and the universe so is that all it would take to fit the description? Does it have to be intelligent? How intelligent? Does it have to have heard prayers or be aware of humans? Does it have to have directly created Earth or humanity or can it just have created all matter?
How about if Star Trek is right, and there is a race of incredibly advanced extra dimensional beings with powers indistinguishable from gods? They seem to be all knowing and all powerful and can communicate with us and can even read our minds. Are they gods, or aliens with technology beyond our understanding? What if the aliens were confirmed to have created Earth? Humans even?
Would it still be a god if you could measure it, visit it, observe it? Does a theist’s idea of god have to be something beyond perception? I would argue that the line between a god and a highly advanced alien is in the deliberate ambiguity, and the need to “have faith” that it exists. The moment there is hard evidence of its existence it stops being a god. Anything that can’t exist in the face of any evidence that it does might as well not.
There are probably an infinite amount of possibilities in the unknown, but without any evidence or scientific rigor then any theory people come up with are just daydreams. Being pooped out by a giant space whale is an equally valid idea to there being a god out there, and equally valid to an enormous primordial cow licking the salt from ice to create life. I don’t believe in those stories because I don’t have any reason to. Your saying that my lack of belief in god is emotional is pretty funny to me, perhaps your lack of belief in Superman is emotional rather than rational.
We do, however, have a framework of references regarding the other natural mysteries humans once ascribed to gods having elegant solutions rooted in the hard sciences. We searched the storm clouds and didn’t find Thor. We’ve dug boreholes and didn’t find Hades. We’ve studied the sun and haven’t found Ra. Human history is chock full of gods and “higher powers” to explain the unknown, and as we learned more about the world the less relevant they became. We learned sacrificing goats to a god does not make it rain, and now understand the natural and mundane systems that do. There’s no reason to believe that the creation of matter or “something from nothing” as you put it is any different.
There’s also no reason to believe it’s the same.
Our extremely advanced collection of scientific knowledge doesn’t even attempt to explain anything prior to the big bang. The models simply don’t apply.
In the 20th century, many made similar arguments regarding quantum mechanics. Einstein famously remarked “God doesn’t play dice”, because he didn’t see how uncertainty could be a fundamental aspect of physics. Everything we knew about physics up until that point involved definitive calculations which provided a determinate result. Turns out he was wrong.
I try to avoid hubris, and in this situation it’s pretty easy for me to recognize and avoid. My question for you is, what is your incentive to make such a definitive claim in the absence of certainty? My suspicion is it has something to do with OPs original claim that atheists choose to believe that God doesn’t exist due to emotional reasons, rather than rational ones.
Let’s say for example that before there was space time, outside of the known universe that there was a giant space whale. This space whale ate dark energy and as it passed through its digestive system it created matter. Turns out, this is how the universe started. Is the space whale God? It created all life and the universe so is that all it would take to fit the description? Does it have to be intelligent? How intelligent? Does it have to have heard prayers or be aware of humans? Does it have to have directly created Earth or humanity or can it just have created all matter?
How about if Star Trek is right, and there is a race of incredibly advanced extra dimensional beings with powers indistinguishable from gods? They seem to be all knowing and all powerful and can communicate with us and can even read our minds. Are they gods, or aliens with technology beyond our understanding? What if the aliens were confirmed to have created Earth? Humans even?
Would it still be a god if you could measure it, visit it, observe it? Does a theist’s idea of god have to be something beyond perception? I would argue that the line between a god and a highly advanced alien is in the deliberate ambiguity, and the need to “have faith” that it exists. The moment there is hard evidence of its existence it stops being a god. Anything that can’t exist in the face of any evidence that it does might as well not.
There are probably an infinite amount of possibilities in the unknown, but without any evidence or scientific rigor then any theory people come up with are just daydreams. Being pooped out by a giant space whale is an equally valid idea to there being a god out there, and equally valid to an enormous primordial cow licking the salt from ice to create life. I don’t believe in those stories because I don’t have any reason to. Your saying that my lack of belief in god is emotional is pretty funny to me, perhaps your lack of belief in Superman is emotional rather than rational.