True, but Crypto has been awash with scams from its inception. Blockchain inherently rewards those who engage with it deceptively since access to tokens = ownership, there are no take backsies, 0 consumer protections, and it’s global.
That may be true. But then the transaction fees are at the mercy of the credit card company. My aunt pays 3% of all card transactions damn near. That’s pretty spicy.
I can’t wait for the day companies like VISA or Mastercard become obsolete. Please save my aunts small business from predatory transactions fees. ♥
There will always be scammers, my point is just that Bitcoin empowers them. Scammers and fraudsters have many more tools through Bitcoin than they would with FIAT, and they are more likely to succeed and thrive.
The same things that make it like that make it good money. If i hand you a $100 bill i cant get it back without either asking you or force. With today’s payment methods i can just call the bank crying that i never did that transaction and fuck you over. Deceptive auto renewing memberships like gyms and other things dont work either because crypto like cash is a push payment instead of a pull payment. I cant just take your money whenever i damn well feel like it you have to actively give it to me.
Edit: it also truely makes it “your money”. A government goon can call up your bank any time and have your account frozen or drained because money in the bank is a conditional IOU subject to revocation at any time for any reason with no explaination to you required.
Your solution is to blame people who make mistakes, and reward companies who scam them. Real money is backed by governments and a justice system. The alternative is anarchy, and bitcoins show it really well.
Yeah, we are going to have to agree to disagree there. What you call real money backed by the government and justice systems has always failed eventually. Because people manipulate it for personal gain. I wish you good luck manipulating Bitcoin since it hasn’t happened in the 14 years it’s existed. Lots have tried, all have failed.
Exactly, companies and services have scammed users, but the core protocol is as good or better today than it was in 2010 and it has not been hacked. Trust me, many people would be extatic to see it happen. The fundamentals are rock solid.
My point is that its lack of regulation and decentralization makes it more vulnerable to the types of attacks that actually matter, namely market manipulation, fraud, and scams targeting specific accounts through social engineering. Those are already the biggest problems with FIAT, and crypto just intensifies them by removing existing protections.
If I took $100 cash from you under false pretense, it would be a crime and I would be prosecuted for it. I would also have to expose myself by interacting with you. If I trick you with a fake login page and steal all your shit from your crypto wallet, then according to the blockchain that’s just fine, and I can do it completely anonymously from the other side of the planet with 0 hope for anyone to do anything about it. I had access to the tokens, so I can do anything I want with them and no one can stop me, reverse it, or even find me. That’s the issue.
Every crypto bro I’ve talked to has said some version of “well don’t get scammed then”, which is such a fucking stupid and asinine answer. Every financial system has consumer protections except for crypto because they are 100% necessary for normal people to survive.
Scammers have been doing that with cash, PayPal, gift cards and even regular bank transfers that are supposedly so safe.
Crypto transactions being irreversible are no different than cash or gold transactions, you can’t magically revert giving someone cash once you realize they scammed you. Only thing you can do is report it to the police. Crypto works the same way, but for transparent coins like btc, or eth you at least have a proof that a transaction took place unlike cash.
Yes, exactly my point. It’s way harder to scam with physical stores of value like cash, because there aren’t layers of obfuscation like there can be with digital stores of value. That is why scamming is so much less common in meatspace compared to crypto, where every single interaction, even with a vendor or exchange, is a potential landmine you have to be cognizant of.
With PayPal or bank transactions, those can be reversed and there are regulatory bodies to ensure consumer protections. Even with physical stores like cash, it is much easier to track someone and prosecute for illegal activity since they can’t hide behind crypto wallets.
Every store of value has some form consumer protections and systems of accountability except for crypto, and as such scammers are empowered by it.
How is it harder to scam with cash? You come to my store to buy something, you hand me the bill, I take it and don’t give you anything in return. Even if you call the police it’s my word against yours, how will you prove that I took your money?
Most scams are done irl with FIAT (fake bills, overpriced cooking pots, fake tech support, palm reading, IRS google play cards, nigerian princes, fake e-bay items, fake charge-backs for real e-bay items, uber ride cancels, uncancellable memberships, hidden costs…) at the end of the day you can’t protect everyone from everything, especially from their own gullibility. The design of crypto, when used properly, prevents all of the non-gullibility based scam types (chargebacks, cancels, hidden costs, automatic deductions etc.). For some people complete control over their money is a plus and some prefere to have it handled by banks and governments, maybe crypto just wasn’t made for the latter.
You come to my store to buy something, you hand me the bill, I take it and don’t give you anything in return.
Video cameras. Also the shopkeep develops a reputation and is easily identifiable.
Most scams are done irl with FIAT,
Technically the truth, but a MUCH larger percentage of the crypto ecosystem is devoted to scams. I don’t think that is just “growing pains”, the design of crypto, again, incentivizes this behavior because it gives victims no recourse.
at the end of the day you can’t protect everyone from everything, especially from their own gullibility.
Yes, but gullibility is the #1 problem and again, crypto has no safeguards or recourse.
For some people complete control over their money is a plus
Control but only within the system and ruleset that is made by those who control the chain. If institutions leverage their power in the space in a mass-adoption scenario, then they will be the ones making these rules and controlling what you can do, and the rigidity of crypto’s rules advantage them in that case, no the consumer.
I don’t have cameras in my store and i doubt you walk around with a gopro strapt to your forehead. Crypto stores develop reputation as well.
On what are you basing the opinion that MUCH larger percentage of the crypto ecosystem is devoted to scams? Legal action is the only recourse you have with cash, the same can be done with crypto. If design of crypto incentives scams then so does the design of cash.
Yes, but gullibility is the #1 problem and again, crypto has no safeguards or recourse.
Neither does cash, gift cards and all of the methods Nigerian princes and certified Microsoft technicians from IRS have been successfully using for years to scam their victims.
The whole point of making the system decentralized is so that a powerful actor can’t seize control over it. There are hundreds of chains with different rules and regulations, you can chose the one that fits your needs, and if a powerful actor tries to change it’s rules the community can decide that the version of the chain with altered rules isn’t one they want to take part in and split off. It has happened before with block size wars that resulted in btc/bch split. Both chains run fine to this day, each with their own rules decided by their own community.
I’m curious if you would prefer crypto disappear entirely, or if you would prefer it be properly regulated so it has all the same, or greater, protections so that it can be part of the economy without being as risky for consumers.
I can only assume the early internet had little to no consumer protections on purchases (compared to the protections they have today, that is), but I could be wrong on that. Laws and regulations tend to always lag behind technology.
I like the idea of taking power away from big banks. Crypto is no silver bullet, but I’d like to think it could get there one day. But since capitalism always protects itself, I doubt any wealthy lobbies are going to be asking congress to pass common sense regulation for a currency that takes power away from institutional banks.
I would prefer for crypto to be gone. Based on my understanding of blockchain, I don’t see how it can be used as currency ever. Blockchains can be extremely useful, just not as currency.
The only thing you can really do about stolen tokens is have some authority de-list them and re-issue new token to the victim. That’s hardly a solution. It also extremely centralizes control, which runs antithetical to the purported benefits of crypto.
Crypto also doesn’t take power away from institutions. If institutions were to leverage their power in the space, they would become just as, if not more powerful than they are currently, assuming a mass-adoption scenario. The inflexibility of crypto always works to the advantage of those setting the rules.
Crypto is also incredibly power inefficient. Even with proof-of-stake instead of proof-of-work, it is still factors less efficient than normal FIAT transactions, and as of yet I see no solution to that. One may pop up in some hypothetical future, but I have no faith in that.
Additionally, crypto will also always reward those who engage with it disingenuously, as it is not linked to one’s real identity and, again, is inflexible and impossible to truly regulate. In a mass-adoption scenario, scammers would become enormously more successful.
Most importantly, crypto is a digital asset whose store of value is implicitly tied to the belief that it can be sold for FIAT. It is almost exclusively a speculative vehicle, and always had been since its inception. Actual crypto purchases are disincentivized by how slow, inefficient, unwieldy, and volatile it is. Not to mention high transaction fees for the most popular coins. It is also deflationary, meaning one is disincentivized from spending it, which is extremely bad for the economy in a mass-adoption scenario. Gentle inflation is one of the core principles underpinning our economy. Having currency also be an asset that appreciates in value is objectively a bad thing.
I feel like I could keep going for a while but hopefully you at least understand why I feel this way now lol.
I would prefer for crypto to be gone. Based on my understanding of blockchain, I don’t see how it can be used as currency ever. Blockchains can be extremely useful, just not as currency.
Hm, my understanding was that blockchain was the technology that handles the distributed ledger rather than the currency itself. Blockchain seems useful to a point in this realm, but is, like we both know, extremely energy inefficient and unsustainable.
The only thing you can really do about stolen tokens is have some authority de-list them and re-issue new token to the victim. That’s hardly a solution. It also extremely centralizes control, which runs antithetical to the purported benefits of crypto.
No arguments here. Though I think there could be better solutions out aside from using some centralized authority to delist stolen tokens. Blacklisting certain wallet IDs could be a crowd-sourced project, much like how blocklists for adblockers are largely community-driven.
Crypto also doesn’t take power away from institutions. […]
Gotta disagree with “crypto doesn’t take power away from institutions”. Exactly as you said, if institutions leverage their pre-existing power in the crypto space, it becomes centralized because a small pool of wealthy players control the majority of the currency. The currency itself is not centralized, but it can be exploited by bad actors who wish to manipulate its value (or just profit off of it, either way). If existing institutions weren’t using their massively accumulated wealth to affect the crypto space, they would be losing power over the people who decided to avail themselves of it and bypass conventional banks. I consider this a weakness in cryptocurrency that needs to be addressed, but is this weakness any different from any other currency?
Crypto is also incredibly power inefficient. Even with proof-of-stake instead of proof-of-work, it is still factors less efficient than normal FIAT transactions, and as of yet I see no solution to that. One may pop up in some hypothetical future, but I have no faith in that.
Zero arguments from me. It’s an environmental disaster.
Additionally, crypto will also always reward those who engage with it disingenuously, as it is not linked to one’s real identity and, again, is inflexible and impossible to truly regulate. In a mass-adoption scenario, scammers would become enormously more successful.
Depends on how you intereact with crypto. In the US, most states require crypto brokers to verify the identity of those trading on their platforms. No different from opening a checking account with a bank. Sure, one could get into crypto anonymously but it’s considerably harder. Some crypto ATMs exist, but I think virtually all of them have cameras and require you to show photo ID to use them (at least in the US).
Most importantly, crypto is a digital asset whose store of value is implicitly tied to the belief that it can be sold for FIAT. It is almost exclusively a speculative vehicle, and always had been since its inception. Actual crypto purchases are disincentivized by how slow, inefficient, unwieldy, and volatile it is. Not to mention high transaction fees for the most popular coins. It is also deflationary, meaning one is disincentivized from spending it, which is extremely bad for the economy in a mass-adoption scenario. Gentle inflation is one of the core principles underpinning our economy. Having currency also be an asset that appreciates in value is objectively a bad thing.
I disagree that it’s been a speculative vehicle since its inception. It’s undeniably a speculative investment now, and has been for years, but when it first started out, it was basically worthless and adopted by a handful of businesses who were understandably pissed off after the 2008 market crash. People naturally speculated as to whether or not it would take off, and I think it’s unfortunate that it became a speculative investment by those who weren’t really interested in its use as a currency.
I’m no economist, but I don’t see much difference between “crypto’s value is implicitly tied to the belief that it can be sold for FIAT” and “FIAT’s value is implicitly tied to the belief that the issuing government values it”
I feel like I could keep going for a while but hopefully you at least understand why I feel this way now lol.
Oh believe me, none of this is news to me. I just wanted to see what you thought. I’ve found the cryptocurrency conversation interesting as the years have passed and enjoy asking people for their thoughts when they appear to be engaging in good faith. Most people I see are very unpleasantly hardline for or against crypto and don’t care to take time to discuss any of the nuance.
True, but Crypto has been awash with scams from its inception. Blockchain inherently rewards those who engage with it deceptively since access to tokens = ownership, there are no take backsies, 0 consumer protections, and it’s global.
Honestly if I get scammed I don’t have the time nor money to fight it, sounds like mostly protection for those at the top
If you get scammed using FIAT you can just call your bank and they can issue a chargeback through the card provider, especially if it’s credit.
That may be true. But then the transaction fees are at the mercy of the credit card company. My aunt pays 3% of all card transactions damn near. That’s pretty spicy.
I can’t wait for the day companies like VISA or Mastercard become obsolete. Please save my aunts small business from predatory transactions fees. ♥
And that never happened with fiat, everyone knows thoes wild west snake oil salesman were using bitcoin.
There will always be scammers, my point is just that Bitcoin empowers them. Scammers and fraudsters have many more tools through Bitcoin than they would with FIAT, and they are more likely to succeed and thrive.
The same things that make it like that make it good money. If i hand you a $100 bill i cant get it back without either asking you or force. With today’s payment methods i can just call the bank crying that i never did that transaction and fuck you over. Deceptive auto renewing memberships like gyms and other things dont work either because crypto like cash is a push payment instead of a pull payment. I cant just take your money whenever i damn well feel like it you have to actively give it to me.
Edit: it also truely makes it “your money”. A government goon can call up your bank any time and have your account frozen or drained because money in the bank is a conditional IOU subject to revocation at any time for any reason with no explaination to you required.
Your solution is to blame people who make mistakes, and reward companies who scam them. Real money is backed by governments and a justice system. The alternative is anarchy, and bitcoins show it really well.
Yeah, we are going to have to agree to disagree there. What you call real money backed by the government and justice systems has always failed eventually. Because people manipulate it for personal gain. I wish you good luck manipulating Bitcoin since it hasn’t happened in the 14 years it’s existed. Lots have tried, all have failed.
Never! Except with early pump-and-dumps, whale manipulation, spoofing, wash trading, Mt. Gox, or what’s happening with Tether.
But besides all that stuff creating massively disruptive volatility on a slow as shit network, what’s not to love?
Exactly, companies and services have scammed users, but the core protocol is as good or better today than it was in 2010 and it has not been hacked. Trust me, many people would be extatic to see it happen. The fundamentals are rock solid.
My point is that its lack of regulation and decentralization makes it more vulnerable to the types of attacks that actually matter, namely market manipulation, fraud, and scams targeting specific accounts through social engineering. Those are already the biggest problems with FIAT, and crypto just intensifies them by removing existing protections.
If I took $100 cash from you under false pretense, it would be a crime and I would be prosecuted for it. I would also have to expose myself by interacting with you. If I trick you with a fake login page and steal all your shit from your crypto wallet, then according to the blockchain that’s just fine, and I can do it completely anonymously from the other side of the planet with 0 hope for anyone to do anything about it. I had access to the tokens, so I can do anything I want with them and no one can stop me, reverse it, or even find me. That’s the issue.
Every crypto bro I’ve talked to has said some version of “well don’t get scammed then”, which is such a fucking stupid and asinine answer. Every financial system has consumer protections except for crypto because they are 100% necessary for normal people to survive.
Scammers have been doing that with cash, PayPal, gift cards and even regular bank transfers that are supposedly so safe.
Crypto transactions being irreversible are no different than cash or gold transactions, you can’t magically revert giving someone cash once you realize they scammed you. Only thing you can do is report it to the police. Crypto works the same way, but for transparent coins like btc, or eth you at least have a proof that a transaction took place unlike cash.
Yes, exactly my point. It’s way harder to scam with physical stores of value like cash, because there aren’t layers of obfuscation like there can be with digital stores of value. That is why scamming is so much less common in meatspace compared to crypto, where every single interaction, even with a vendor or exchange, is a potential landmine you have to be cognizant of.
With PayPal or bank transactions, those can be reversed and there are regulatory bodies to ensure consumer protections. Even with physical stores like cash, it is much easier to track someone and prosecute for illegal activity since they can’t hide behind crypto wallets.
Every store of value has some form consumer protections and systems of accountability except for crypto, and as such scammers are empowered by it.
How is it harder to scam with cash? You come to my store to buy something, you hand me the bill, I take it and don’t give you anything in return. Even if you call the police it’s my word against yours, how will you prove that I took your money?
Most scams are done irl with FIAT (fake bills, overpriced cooking pots, fake tech support, palm reading, IRS google play cards, nigerian princes, fake e-bay items, fake charge-backs for real e-bay items, uber ride cancels, uncancellable memberships, hidden costs…) at the end of the day you can’t protect everyone from everything, especially from their own gullibility. The design of crypto, when used properly, prevents all of the non-gullibility based scam types (chargebacks, cancels, hidden costs, automatic deductions etc.). For some people complete control over their money is a plus and some prefere to have it handled by banks and governments, maybe crypto just wasn’t made for the latter.
Video cameras. Also the shopkeep develops a reputation and is easily identifiable.
Technically the truth, but a MUCH larger percentage of the crypto ecosystem is devoted to scams. I don’t think that is just “growing pains”, the design of crypto, again, incentivizes this behavior because it gives victims no recourse.
Yes, but gullibility is the #1 problem and again, crypto has no safeguards or recourse.
Control but only within the system and ruleset that is made by those who control the chain. If institutions leverage their power in the space in a mass-adoption scenario, then they will be the ones making these rules and controlling what you can do, and the rigidity of crypto’s rules advantage them in that case, no the consumer.
I don’t have cameras in my store and i doubt you walk around with a gopro strapt to your forehead. Crypto stores develop reputation as well.
On what are you basing the opinion that MUCH larger percentage of the crypto ecosystem is devoted to scams? Legal action is the only recourse you have with cash, the same can be done with crypto. If design of crypto incentives scams then so does the design of cash.
Neither does cash, gift cards and all of the methods Nigerian princes and certified Microsoft technicians from IRS have been successfully using for years to scam their victims.
The whole point of making the system decentralized is so that a powerful actor can’t seize control over it. There are hundreds of chains with different rules and regulations, you can chose the one that fits your needs, and if a powerful actor tries to change it’s rules the community can decide that the version of the chain with altered rules isn’t one they want to take part in and split off. It has happened before with block size wars that resulted in btc/bch split. Both chains run fine to this day, each with their own rules decided by their own community.
I’m curious if you would prefer crypto disappear entirely, or if you would prefer it be properly regulated so it has all the same, or greater, protections so that it can be part of the economy without being as risky for consumers.
I can only assume the early internet had little to no consumer protections on purchases (compared to the protections they have today, that is), but I could be wrong on that. Laws and regulations tend to always lag behind technology.
I like the idea of taking power away from big banks. Crypto is no silver bullet, but I’d like to think it could get there one day. But since capitalism always protects itself, I doubt any wealthy lobbies are going to be asking congress to pass common sense regulation for a currency that takes power away from institutional banks.
I would prefer for crypto to be gone. Based on my understanding of blockchain, I don’t see how it can be used as currency ever. Blockchains can be extremely useful, just not as currency.
The only thing you can really do about stolen tokens is have some authority de-list them and re-issue new token to the victim. That’s hardly a solution. It also extremely centralizes control, which runs antithetical to the purported benefits of crypto.
Crypto also doesn’t take power away from institutions. If institutions were to leverage their power in the space, they would become just as, if not more powerful than they are currently, assuming a mass-adoption scenario. The inflexibility of crypto always works to the advantage of those setting the rules.
Crypto is also incredibly power inefficient. Even with proof-of-stake instead of proof-of-work, it is still factors less efficient than normal FIAT transactions, and as of yet I see no solution to that. One may pop up in some hypothetical future, but I have no faith in that.
Additionally, crypto will also always reward those who engage with it disingenuously, as it is not linked to one’s real identity and, again, is inflexible and impossible to truly regulate. In a mass-adoption scenario, scammers would become enormously more successful.
Most importantly, crypto is a digital asset whose store of value is implicitly tied to the belief that it can be sold for FIAT. It is almost exclusively a speculative vehicle, and always had been since its inception. Actual crypto purchases are disincentivized by how slow, inefficient, unwieldy, and volatile it is. Not to mention high transaction fees for the most popular coins. It is also deflationary, meaning one is disincentivized from spending it, which is extremely bad for the economy in a mass-adoption scenario. Gentle inflation is one of the core principles underpinning our economy. Having currency also be an asset that appreciates in value is objectively a bad thing.
I feel like I could keep going for a while but hopefully you at least understand why I feel this way now lol.
Hm, my understanding was that blockchain was the technology that handles the distributed ledger rather than the currency itself. Blockchain seems useful to a point in this realm, but is, like we both know, extremely energy inefficient and unsustainable.
No arguments here. Though I think there could be better solutions out aside from using some centralized authority to delist stolen tokens. Blacklisting certain wallet IDs could be a crowd-sourced project, much like how blocklists for adblockers are largely community-driven.
Gotta disagree with “crypto doesn’t take power away from institutions”. Exactly as you said, if institutions leverage their pre-existing power in the crypto space, it becomes centralized because a small pool of wealthy players control the majority of the currency. The currency itself is not centralized, but it can be exploited by bad actors who wish to manipulate its value (or just profit off of it, either way). If existing institutions weren’t using their massively accumulated wealth to affect the crypto space, they would be losing power over the people who decided to avail themselves of it and bypass conventional banks. I consider this a weakness in cryptocurrency that needs to be addressed, but is this weakness any different from any other currency?
Zero arguments from me. It’s an environmental disaster.
Depends on how you intereact with crypto. In the US, most states require crypto brokers to verify the identity of those trading on their platforms. No different from opening a checking account with a bank. Sure, one could get into crypto anonymously but it’s considerably harder. Some crypto ATMs exist, but I think virtually all of them have cameras and require you to show photo ID to use them (at least in the US).
I disagree that it’s been a speculative vehicle since its inception. It’s undeniably a speculative investment now, and has been for years, but when it first started out, it was basically worthless and adopted by a handful of businesses who were understandably pissed off after the 2008 market crash. People naturally speculated as to whether or not it would take off, and I think it’s unfortunate that it became a speculative investment by those who weren’t really interested in its use as a currency.
I’m no economist, but I don’t see much difference between “crypto’s value is implicitly tied to the belief that it can be sold for FIAT” and “FIAT’s value is implicitly tied to the belief that the issuing government values it”
Oh believe me, none of this is news to me. I just wanted to see what you thought. I’ve found the cryptocurrency conversation interesting as the years have passed and enjoy asking people for their thoughts when they appear to be engaging in good faith. Most people I see are very unpleasantly hardline for or against crypto and don’t care to take time to discuss any of the nuance.