Obligate carnivores in nature. Why do you care if a cat is fed with fortified plant bits vs fortified animal bits? Neither product exists in nature and the cat can live a healthy life on both. Also breeding cats to be pets is completely unnatural, so why are you fine with that?
It’s not a “moral” obligation, it’s how their body actually processes and uses proteins and nutrients… you know, it’s probably better for me to not engage here. Stop neglecting animals based on your own beliefs.
This is bullshit because pet food exists where the proteins are denatured because some animals have serious allergies. Animals can build the proteins they need from the constituent parts. There are surely proteins unique to cats, where do you think they get them, cannibalism? Are you saying veterinarians recommending such products are harming animals?
Also who said I have a cat companion, even if you were 100% correct about what constitutes neglect it would not apply to me. But you’re obviously not engaging in good faith and just want someone to paint as a monster. What’s really monstrous is we have an industry that brutally harvests billions of sentient creatures every year just to feed ourselves and other animals.
The only way to not participate in this industry is to not have any carnivores as companions. Because otherwise you are killing your own sentient creature.
Nobody is suggesting we feed cats tofu and spinach. The naturalistic argument and yelling “We don’t know!” a bunch really only works if you are proposing we feed cats only raw meat from fresh kills, what they would eat in the wild. Pet food isn’t a pet’s natural diet, vegan or not, and it all has to be fortified.
I don’t believe in such a naturalistic argument though. Humans are able (key word, able, most don’t) eat healthier with modern diets. Why would we assume we can’t develop food that is just as healthy or even healthier than an animal’s natural diet?
Indeed, the cat appears to have less capability to adapt to most changes in dietary composition because it cannot change the quantities of enzymes involved in the metabolic pathways. This evolutionary development has resulted in more stringent nutritional requirements for cats than for omnivores such as the rat, dog, and man.
Biologically, humans are omnivores. Your suggestion would work great with other omnivores. I’m all for balanced healthy humane diets for the animals we are responsible for feeding! But not to the point of neglect.
When I said study I meant an observational or longitudinal study measuring health outcomes, not a description of the mechanisms at play. Such studies are important to concluding that alternative diets are already nutritional or elucidating the flaws so that they may be addressed.
Don’t you think such knowledge of cat digestion would be integrated into feeding a cat in a vegan way? We are incredibly good at synthesizing nutrients these days through both chemical processes and modifying microorganisms or plants. We can produce “higher forms” of things such as vitamin A and D without invoking animal biology, these aren’t hypotheticals, such things are already common in the huge supplement and cosmetics industries.
https://www.reddit.com/r/veganuk/comments/zofsrh/comment/j0nku2i I apologize for this link to the “other” site, but I see lots of people parroting this argument, when the burden of proof that such crafted food actually exists and is available for consumers and any price point would be up to you.
Also, I searched and could only find suggestions for https://www.biocraftpet.com/ which synthesizes meat from stem cells, I’m curious what your take is on this approach.
That burden of proof doesn’t fall on me. I was rebutting your claims that relied on nature and on mechanisms, and explained why the reasoning doesn’t hold up. The reason I asked for a study is because if you can’t produce an argument on why we couldn’t feed animals in a vegan manner then a study that showed poor health outcomes would at least require me to explain how those specific hurdles are solvable.
I completely agree with you that I shouldn’t have a cat because I have not done the research on how to feed a cat in a vegan manner, but that’s something most people have not done because they simply don’t care about feeding a cat in a vegan manner. In my view they should not have cats either.
As for meat grown in a lab, I am fine with it. But ethics aside ultimately I think we shouldn’t evaluate food on how natural it is but how provably healthy it is. If we can formulate food that gives cats better health outcomes then we should be feeding them more of that. This is anecdotal, but of the dogs I know through family or friends the ones fed way more plain meat have the worst digestion and I wouldn’t be surprised if they died the earliest, but it’s hard to talk people out of these naturalistic positions.
Obligate carnivores in nature. Why do you care if a cat is fed with fortified plant bits vs fortified animal bits? Neither product exists in nature and the cat can live a healthy life on both. Also breeding cats to be pets is completely unnatural, so why are you fine with that?
It’s not a “moral” obligation, it’s how their body actually processes and uses proteins and nutrients… you know, it’s probably better for me to not engage here. Stop neglecting animals based on your own beliefs.
Go get a rabbit for a pet instead.
This is bullshit because pet food exists where the proteins are denatured because some animals have serious allergies. Animals can build the proteins they need from the constituent parts. There are surely proteins unique to cats, where do you think they get them, cannibalism? Are you saying veterinarians recommending such products are harming animals?
Also who said I have a cat companion, even if you were 100% correct about what constitutes neglect it would not apply to me. But you’re obviously not engaging in good faith and just want someone to paint as a monster. What’s really monstrous is we have an industry that brutally harvests billions of sentient creatures every year just to feed ourselves and other animals.
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/home/pets/vegan-cat-diets-could-cause-sudden-death/news-story/d8bd18b20728fef635b596a7935844ef
https://www.whyanimalsdothething.com/why-a-vegan-diet-will-kill-your-cat-and-sicken-your-dog
The only way to not participate in this industry is to not have any carnivores as companions. Because otherwise you are killing your own sentient creature.
Link to studies please.
Nobody is suggesting we feed cats tofu and spinach. The naturalistic argument and yelling “We don’t know!” a bunch really only works if you are proposing we feed cats only raw meat from fresh kills, what they would eat in the wild. Pet food isn’t a pet’s natural diet, vegan or not, and it all has to be fortified.
I don’t believe in such a naturalistic argument though. Humans are able (key word, able, most don’t) eat healthier with modern diets. Why would we assume we can’t develop food that is just as healthy or even healthier than an animal’s natural diet?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6380542/
Biologically, humans are omnivores. Your suggestion would work great with other omnivores. I’m all for balanced healthy humane diets for the animals we are responsible for feeding! But not to the point of neglect.
When I said study I meant an observational or longitudinal study measuring health outcomes, not a description of the mechanisms at play. Such studies are important to concluding that alternative diets are already nutritional or elucidating the flaws so that they may be addressed.
Don’t you think such knowledge of cat digestion would be integrated into feeding a cat in a vegan way? We are incredibly good at synthesizing nutrients these days through both chemical processes and modifying microorganisms or plants. We can produce “higher forms” of things such as vitamin A and D without invoking animal biology, these aren’t hypotheticals, such things are already common in the huge supplement and cosmetics industries.
https://www.reddit.com/r/veganuk/comments/zofsrh/comment/j0nku2i I apologize for this link to the “other” site, but I see lots of people parroting this argument, when the burden of proof that such crafted food actually exists and is available for consumers and any price point would be up to you.
Also, I searched and could only find suggestions for https://www.biocraftpet.com/ which synthesizes meat from stem cells, I’m curious what your take is on this approach.
That burden of proof doesn’t fall on me. I was rebutting your claims that relied on nature and on mechanisms, and explained why the reasoning doesn’t hold up. The reason I asked for a study is because if you can’t produce an argument on why we couldn’t feed animals in a vegan manner then a study that showed poor health outcomes would at least require me to explain how those specific hurdles are solvable.
I completely agree with you that I shouldn’t have a cat because I have not done the research on how to feed a cat in a vegan manner, but that’s something most people have not done because they simply don’t care about feeding a cat in a vegan manner. In my view they should not have cats either.
As for meat grown in a lab, I am fine with it. But ethics aside ultimately I think we shouldn’t evaluate food on how natural it is but how provably healthy it is. If we can formulate food that gives cats better health outcomes then we should be feeding them more of that. This is anecdotal, but of the dogs I know through family or friends the ones fed way more plain meat have the worst digestion and I wouldn’t be surprised if they died the earliest, but it’s hard to talk people out of these naturalistic positions.
I believe it ties into the “if it cant be done 100% perfectly its not worth doing at all” excuse omnis have