Keep up the good work r/pics, this last one had me wondering if you were actually r/maliciouscompliance !
I don’t get why people are clinging to the idea that reddit will suddenly give a fuck. They are unprofessional, rude, liars. It doesn’t matter if they bend down and kiss your ass with a million false promises. They won’t follow through.
Look at what happened to interestingasfuck, they are approaching a week with no mods and completely locked down. You can easily make reddit implode themselves with their hubris of mods being easily replaceable. They have shown that is not true. Y’all will be removed anyway before the IPO, they won’t risk this again. So hurry up and let them implode before they have time to figure out an alternative before the IPO
Reddit does give a fuck, though. If they didn’t give fucks, they wouldn’t be trying to fuck with the protests (eg, by forcing subs open or removing mods). Whether or not Reddit would actually do any of the things protestors want is a different question, but clearly the protests do at least hurt Reddit and Reddit would dearly like them to stop.
I agree, I meant don’t give a fuck as in suddenly change their mind about the API changes. They give a lot of fucks about making everyone bend to their whim. They give so many fucks they will willingly shut down subreddits themselves
The protest was working and they should keep it going
what I don’t get is why someone would go out of their way to try and convince somebody else that a protest is meaningless while the protest is going on. why would you take time to convince others to stop, what is there even to gain from that? only reddit would want that. if the protest was truly meaningless you wouldn’t have to argue against at all. clearly the protest have an effect on you and on reddit.
It’s also the mindless scrollzombies who just want their daily dose of dopamine. If nothing else, this protest opened my eyes to just how bad the website has become.
imagine working for a corp for 15 years for free 💀
I think there’s always been a bit of an unspoken understanding between Reddit and its moderators: Reddit provides the platform; moderators get to run their communities as they see fit (as long as they’re not doing anything that gets Reddit in trouble). And with this framing, moderation didn’t feel like working for Reddit, it felt like working for your community. It was always seen as fair enough if Reddit makes back to money to pay for the platform they’re providing. It felt like wins all round: Reddit makes money, moderators get to have somewhere to maintain their communities and shape them as they see fit, users get communities they can join.
It’s only now that Reddit’s interfering with how moderators run their communities and interact with the platform that people are seeing it as working for Reddit. It doesn’t feel like a collaborative effort any more, but rather Reddit just wanting unpaid labourers. The unspoken agreement feels like it’s been broken. That doesn’t retroactively make all the moderation done in the past count as working for Reddit (even though Reddit obviously benefitted from it), but it does mean that any moderation going forward is something that should be viewed through that lens.
That’s always how it works out tho. If you work for anyone you never do it as an unspoken agreement as the rules will change later on. No matter the assurances.
It’s that one clause that’s the whole hangup right now.
as long as they’re not doing anything that gets Reddit in trouble
Reading between the lines of everything Spez said, there’s one abundantly clear fact - Reddit is not profitable - and that’s a big problem, one the board and everyone is pushing to see fixed at all costs. Investors and ownership expect ROI, customers expect ROAS. They’re not getting it, and they’re getting to the end of the rope. I believe we’re coming to a real existential issue for Reddit now - either they get profitable and drag the company over the line to the IPO (so that all the investors can cash out), or there’s no more Reddit. Either you work with the company to bring profits, or you’re a cost needing to be cut.
This does kinda explain why reddit is behaving like this. However going too far in cost cutting- well it’s like cutting off your own arms and legs. So reddit as we know it may be doomed either way. Can’t survive if they give into the protests but also can’t survive once the mods and subs have been irreversibly alienated.
Either way, we lose because Reddit as we knew it is dead.
The thing is, they need to be accessible or they are liable for lawsuits if I understood it right. They took all the labour TPAs do in this regard for granted. So much so they weren’t even aware it was necessary and had regulations in the first place.
Profitability needs somebody who understands what their product is and what kind of legal requirements they need to fulfill. So even under the profitability lens their behavior is destructive.
They weren’t working for Reddit; they were working for their community.
cope
Here’s the text of the open letter:
As promised, here’s what the r/PICS moderators would like to say to Reddit’s administrators:
Forging A Return to Productive Conversation
To All Whom It May Concern:
For fifteen years, r/Pics has been one of Reddit’s most-popular communities. That time hasn’t been without its difficulties, but for the most part, we’ve all gotten along (with each other and with administrators). Members of our team fondly remember Moderator Roadshows, visits to Reddit’s headquarters, Reddit Secret Santa, April Fools’ Day events, regional meetups, and many more uplifting moments. We’ve watched this platform grow by leaps and bounds, and although we haven’t been completely happy about every change that we’ve witnessed, we’ve always done our best to work with Reddit at finding ways to adapt, compromise, and move forward.
This process has occasionally been preceded by some exceptionally public debate, however.
On June 12th, 2023, r/Pics joined thousands of other subreddits in protesting the planned changes to Reddit’s API; changes which – despite being immediately evident to only a minority of Redditors – threatened to worsen the site for everyone. By June 16th, 2023, that demonstration had evolved to represent a wider (and growing) array of concerns, many of which arose in response to Reddit’s statements to journalists. Today (June 26th, 2023), we are hopeful that users and administrators alike can make a return to the productive dialogue that has served us in the past.
We acknowledge that Reddit has placed itself in a situation that makes adjusting its current API roadmap impossible.
However, we have the following requests:
Commit to exploring ways by which third-party applications can make an affordable return. Commit to providing moderation tools and accessibility options (on Old Reddit, New Reddit, and mobile platforms) which match or exceed the functionality and utility of third-party applications. Commit to prioritizing a significant reduction in spam, misinformation, bigotry, and illegal content on Reddit. Guarantee that any future developments which may impact moderators, contributors, or stakeholders will be announced no less than one fiscal quarter before they are scheduled to go into effect. Work together with longstanding moderators to establish a reasonable roadmap and deadline for accomplishing all of the above. Affirm that efforts meant to keep Reddit accountable to its commitments and deadlines will hereafter not be met with insults, threats, removals, or hostility. Publicly affirm all of the above by way of updating Reddit’s User Agreement and Reddit’s Moderator Code of Conduct to include reasonable expectations and requirements for administrators’ behavior. Implement and fill a senior-level role (with decision-making and policy-shaping power) of "Moderator Advocate" at Reddit, with a required qualification for the position being robust experience as a volunteer Reddit moderator.Reddit is unique amongst social-media sites in that its lifeblood – its multitude of moderators and contributors – consists entirely of volunteers. We populate and curate the platform’s many communities, thereby providing a welcoming and engaging environment for all of its visitors. We receive little in the way of thanks for these efforts, but we frequently endure abuse, threats, attacks, and exposure to truly reprehensible media. Historically, we have trusted that Reddit’s administrators have the best interests of the platform and its users (be they moderators, contributors, participants, or lurkers) at heart; that while Reddit may be a for-profit company, it nonetheless recognizes and appreciates the value that Redditors provide.
That trust has been all but entirely eroded… but we hope that together, we can begin to rebuild it.
In simplest terms, Reddit, we implore you: Remember the human.
We look forward to your response by Thursday, June 29th, 2023.
There’s also just one other thing.
that “one other thing” is a hyperlink to a picture of multiple John Olivers standing behind a sign reading “We Demand To Be Taken Seriously”.
My take: the letter does a good job of stating the grievances and position of the moderators and should be referenced in future articles about the Reddit protests. And, although it’s well-written and well-intentioned, it’s not going to work because Reddit hasn’t been dealing in good faith so why would they start now?
Reddit will mistakenly take this letter as a sign of weakness and not perceive it as what it truly is: a final attempt at communication/reconciliation before walking out. The best likely response would be Reddit making some mealymouthed promises that will never be kept. It’s more likely, however, that Reddit will either do nothing at all or do something new that’s hostile and foolish. And it’s highly likely that the moderators realize all of this, but figure there’s nothing to be lost by giving it one last try.
Yep, I’m with you on that. Unfortunately, I think the /r/pics mods are somewhat replaceable. That’s not to say they don’t do a good job - they definitely do, and I’ve got nothing but good things to say about how they’ve handled this last month. But it’s a catch-all subreddit without any real sense of community, culture or curation. A new mod team could be brought on and, after a short acclimatisation period, I think the subreddit would probably feel the same as ever.
There are definitely other subreddits that will suffer much more if they have their mod teams replaced because the mods really curate the content - setting posting rules, banning certain topics, removing things that don’t fit the culture of the subreddit and that aren’t at a high enough quality, etc. Replacement mods simply wouldn’t do it in the same way.
The fact that the biggest subreddits are like /r/pics - catch-all subs with somewhat replaceable mod teams - makes it very easy for Reddit to treat this as being less serious than it is for them. Yes, the big subreddits with the most subscribers and the most traffic are catch-all subreddits with somewhat replaceable mod teams, but those aren’t why people stay on Reddit. People stay for the curated subreddits, the special-interest subreddits, the niche subreddits. And those are the ones that are far harder to find replacement mod teams for, let alone ones that continue to keep the subs going as they were before.
How Reddit handles this open letter will be quite interesting. There’s nothing unreasonable about this letter and its requests. Like you said, if Reddit can address it satisfactorily, there’s still a chance things can be smoothed over between Reddit and moderators; a lot of mods don’t want to leave the site, after all, and are looking for an excuse to stay - that’s why there are still open letters being posted rather than everyone just resigning as moderators right away. But if Reddit doesn’t address it, and address it well, I think, because it’s so well-written, well-intentioned and reasonable, it will reflect terribly on Reddit and could easily be seen as the final straw by a lot of mods.
I applaud their resilience and well thought out solutions, however the damage is done for me. I’ve moved on, they really should as well, take their experience somewhere that will be appreciated. Good luck /r/pics, you’re gonna need it…
The mods of r/pics are absolute queens and kings. Bravo.
yeah still throw in a fuck shit for good measure. kind of sus how the red words are all square as shit if you ask me
I look forward to r/pics being taken over by more “admin-friendly” moderators after this. This is a situation where they accept what Reddit is going to do; or they should leave. Either they want to lead a community on Reddit, as it stands today with the corporate situation and the need for aggressive profit in anticipation of the IPO, or they should leave. Because the way I’ve been reading the messaging is pretty clear; this is an existential situation for Reddit, that’s why Spez has to push so hard. Either they start generating profit, lots of it, now, and go public soon so the investors can cash out, or the lights get turned off.
You don’t have to stay there. Leave if you’re unhappy. Ignore the platform completely if you disagree with what the company is doing. Because the platform is the way the company nominally makes money. Investors and customers expect money to be made and exceed costs. Unless the mods of r/pics have a plan to make the company more profitable (adding C-levels is definitely not that, BTW), that doesn’t involve the jamming the API costs, reducing overall users (and thus server loads), and pushing more users to interact with the advertising, leave or accept the situation as it is.
The record so far is that without a mod crossing lines the sub just stays restricted. Effectively shutdown.
You may look forward to it but I doubt it will happen.
I hope reddit enjoys the loss of traffic after they shut down this sub. I know I will.
Then more people who understand and acknowledge where the company stands right now, and where the platform stands in relation to that, need to “cross lines” in redditrequest. Either that, or more people need to accept that Reddit as a whole will probably be gone in a few months.
So reddit had basically broken the unwritten agreement it had with the community - the ones who gave it content that made it valuable as a company.
If they can’t survive without dishonouring that agreement then maybe it’s not such a bad thing if they don’t survive.
I respect your position on the situation. I would personally prefer it survive if at all possible.
I just wish everyone would respect the situation. You aren’t required to stay, or to leave. It’s obvious that the company isn’t going to change course because they need to get very profitable, very quickly. So why intentionally hurt other users, when you know that’s what you’re doing? Have we not outgrown this kind of valueless trolling? Do people think it will be a badge of honor that they were still trolling when Reddit died?
I respect your position on the situation.
You say that, but you also say
Have we not outgrown this kind of valueless trolling?
So I’m not sure which one to believe.
I would personally prefer it survive if at all possible.
Okay, I’ll bite. Why?
So why intentionally hurt other users, when you know that’s what you’re doing?
I am not doing this. reddit is the one doing this, by going after their
modsunpaid volunteers with demands, and shutting down subs when they can’t find replacement mods.But I’ll go further and ask this - what am I specifically doing that is hurting other users? Can you actually identify and name the specific action or actions that I’ve done that are hurtful? Have I actually taken any action aside from expressing an opinion?
If reddit can’t survive just because I’ve expressed an opinion, then they’re already dead.
It’s obvious that the company isn’t going to change course because they need to get very profitable, very quickly
Usually that’s a sign that the company needs to change course. The evidence is that by upsetting the users and community, reddit has lost revenue. Yet reddit continues to shoot itself in the foot.
Do people think it will be a badge of honor that they were still trolling when Reddit died?
Not trolling, expressing my true beliefs.
But yes, I think a badge of honour is deserved for all those who got banned for protestng https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration/t/51891/Mildly-NSFW-Welp-I-guess-that-s-it-The-single-photo https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration/t/71930/Reddit-admins-have-gone-off-the-deep-end-Banned-for-sexual
And for those mods who were removed by reddit https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration/t/69025/The-entire-mod-team-of-r-MildlyInteresting-22m-just-got-the https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration/t/67350/All-mods-on-r-TIHI-have-been-removed https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration/t/65935/Reddit-just-removed-all-the-mods-from-r-self-and-locked https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration/t/59559/Removed-as-moderator-of-r-Celebrities-after-14-years
Perhaps even for those who didn’t do anything, and got preemptively banned by reddit anyways, https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration/t/90636/u-Awkwardtheturtle-posting-an-update-on-her-reddit-ban
And for all of their supporters. Remember, we are arguing on the side of the accessibility challenged, https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration/t/66862/r-blind-community-migrates-to-Lemmy
So if that doesn’t deserve a badge of honour, then I don’t want to know what does.
I meant “we” as in “all redditors”; unless you’ve been posting J. Oliver pics, you’re right, you’re not contributing to it. I’m very sorry if that was taken personally, that’s not how I meant it. You and I, discussing the situation here on KBin, aren’t trolling anyone. We’re expressing opinions and having a conversation. But a group of users are doing hurtful and troublesome things; and they’re being encouraged by others (including authority figures - mods) to continue doing those things and making the site worse.
As far as why I would prefer Reddit survive, it’s a combination of
- comfortable UI/UX,
- community scale,
- SERP access
And just my general experience with the site and the subreddits.
Those who were banned or demoted, I’d need to know the particulars.
As far as the accessibility side, I do use screen-reading tech more often than not; and I use RedReader from F-Droid on both of my Android devices. I have visual disabilities. Over time, I’ve come to accept the essential fact of disability accommodation - companies weigh costs; if accessibility has immediate costs without immediate benefit and any “consequence” is less severe than the cost of implementation, then accessibility measures will not be taken at any time.
I’m very sorry if that was taken personally, that’s not how I meant it. You and I, discussing the situation here on KBin, aren’t trolling anyone.
Gotcha. Glad we got that misunderstanding cleared up.
But a group of users are doing hurtful and troublesome things
Yeah, it’s a form of civil disorder. We should keep in mind they aren’t doing this because they enjoy causing trouble, but because they feel that basically this is their only way to be heard.
Those who were banned or demoted, I’d need to know the particulars.
That’s why I gave links. But would agree it’s reasonable to consider this on a case-by-case basis.
Over time, I’ve come to accept the essential fact of disability accommodation - companies weigh costs
accessibility measures will not be taken at any time.I guess I should be grateful that I live in a country where things like this are considered a human right. The semi-galling fact about this in reddit’s case is that others stepped in to fill that accessibility gap, and reddit basically didn’t care and chucked them out the window.
I say semi as reddit does deserve credit for allowing Red Reader et al to survive.
But apparently the only good third party apps with accessible mod tools are going. Here’s a recent experience of someone trying to use the builtin mod tools on the official reddit app and giving up in frustration, https://teddit.adminforge.de/r/ModSupport/comments/14jkqiy/this_is_the_current_experience_moderating_on/
As far as why I would prefer Reddit survive, it’s a combination of
Reasonable, but if reddit goes then something else will rise to replace it. I never used digg but apparently it used to lead on all three of these points, until digg shot itself in the foot and refused to listen to the community - giving the chance for reddit to surplant it.
Hey, deja vu?
