NATO and maybe US used Ukraine. They meddled in elections in Ukraine, just like how Russia, China, and everyone else does to every other country. There’s a wave of demonstrations in 2013 and 2014 that lead to Zelenskyy, who genuinely sounds like he is actually a good president to be elected, but there was just enough foreign intervention to help that happen to allow Russia to claim that the elections were false. Russia then used existing (and earned) anti-Russian sentiment to take over Crimea. There’s also historic reasons (not good ones) for people in Crimea to be more pro USSR. They annexed Crimea because they knew that Ukraine could not join NATO if there was an existing land dispute. They did that with Georgia and “South Ossetia” years earlier and it worked. My theory is that NATO/US saw the Russian invasion coming. So, they made it look like they were going to invite Ukraine into NATO in order to provoke Russia to invade. Putin, being an evil pizda went for it thinking that he could take Ukraine in three days (after 5 years of propaganda and assisting pro-Russian rebels). But that didn’t work out, and now NATO/US are using Ukraine as a proxy war to weaken Russia who they see as a natural enemy.
And if anyone reads this thinking that I’m taking some pro-Russian stance, read it again. Fuck Putin. The victims here are Ukrainians and Russians that are fooled into thinking that they’re doing the right thing.
The Euromaidan demonstrations started because Russian planted president (Yanukovich, the one that run to Russia and got their citizenship) first promised that he won’t stand on the way of Ukraine entering EU, then when he was in power he reversed that and said that Ukraine will align with Russia. This is what created the upset.
At that time Ukraine wasn’t interested in joining NATO, the population support was single digit. After 2014 invasion the NATO support drastically increased. BTW: the invasion of Crimea started when Yanukovich was still the president, showing that this was planned no matter what.
And please stop with the BS of “NATO invite provoking Russia”, everyone knows, including putin, that NATO is a defensive alliance, and (as you also pointed out) unlike Russia it doesn’t conquer countries forcing them to join, the countries want to join themselves and seek to be invited. NATO is not a threat to Russia sovereignty. NATO is a threat to Russia’s imperialism, because allows those smaller countries to not be afraid of being invaded. This is why Poland and Baltic states joined EU and NATO on speed run when they got the opportunity. This is what Ukraine wants to do the same.
I don’t disagree why Euromaidan happen and what Yanokovich did. I agree with you on that. All I’m saying is that while all that was happening, there was also external pressure to help Ukraine split from it’s remaining Soviet ties. All I’m saying is that there was just enough of that to allow Russia to use it as an excuse for their behavior. Just like how in US during 2016 elections people were claiming that Hilary Clinton was being helped by the Russians. Then they said the same about Trump. And now that the dust is mostly settled we saw that “russian bots” were on both sides just trying to create chaos. I’m not claiming that the results of that election were affected by Russia in a meaningful way, but because they were present, they became a useful scapegoat. So, when it comes to Ukraine, all I’m saying is that I don’t think EU or NATO actually care if Ukraine joins, but they knew that it would weaken the CIS if Ukraine joined them, or if the war broke out.
Regarding Crimea, I’m sure that Putin and Yanukovich wanted to make Crimea Russian as a way to create a foothold. I think the whole “we’ll join EU” thing was never going to happen and Crimea was going to also be an excuse for not doing that.
I want to clarify what I mean regarding NATO and Russia and “provocation”. I’m not saying that the Putin was provoked. Putin was going to do everything in his power to keep Ukraine out of EU/NATO. All I’m saying is I think the Europeans knew that this will probably happen and didn’t care.
Ukraine and all the other Baltic nations should do what they want and if they want to join EU/NATO, that’s great. Putin is a piece of shit.
But I feel like the support from the EU in this war has not been enough. And that lack of support makes me think that they don’t really care about “helping Ukraine” and they just want to keep Russia tied up in this war. Because they know Putin will keep this thing going until he physically can’t.
Whether you are doing this accidentally or purposefully, you are spreading Kremlin’s disinformation. Ukraine already split with Russia in 1991. And it was its own independent country. It traded with other countries. The reason they wanted to join EU is to help improve its economy. Belonging to EU opens market for exports to other EU countries and also allows to get funding for improvements.
Also regarding provoking Russia I think you forgot that the west largely saw Russia positively (it was the central and Eastern Europe that did not trust them) until 2022. Despite what they did in 2008 despite 2014. Putin thought west will chicken out once again when he snatches Ukraine to rebuild USSR.
Here’s my tinfoil hat theory:
NATO and maybe US used Ukraine. They meddled in elections in Ukraine, just like how Russia, China, and everyone else does to every other country. There’s a wave of demonstrations in 2013 and 2014 that lead to Zelenskyy, who genuinely sounds like he is actually a good president to be elected, but there was just enough foreign intervention to help that happen to allow Russia to claim that the elections were false. Russia then used existing (and earned) anti-Russian sentiment to take over Crimea. There’s also historic reasons (not good ones) for people in Crimea to be more pro USSR. They annexed Crimea because they knew that Ukraine could not join NATO if there was an existing land dispute. They did that with Georgia and “South Ossetia” years earlier and it worked. My theory is that NATO/US saw the Russian invasion coming. So, they made it look like they were going to invite Ukraine into NATO in order to provoke Russia to invade. Putin, being an evil pizda went for it thinking that he could take Ukraine in three days (after 5 years of propaganda and assisting pro-Russian rebels). But that didn’t work out, and now NATO/US are using Ukraine as a proxy war to weaken Russia who they see as a natural enemy.
And if anyone reads this thinking that I’m taking some pro-Russian stance, read it again. Fuck Putin. The victims here are Ukrainians and Russians that are fooled into thinking that they’re doing the right thing.
The Euromaidan demonstrations started because Russian planted president (Yanukovich, the one that run to Russia and got their citizenship) first promised that he won’t stand on the way of Ukraine entering EU, then when he was in power he reversed that and said that Ukraine will align with Russia. This is what created the upset.
At that time Ukraine wasn’t interested in joining NATO, the population support was single digit. After 2014 invasion the NATO support drastically increased. BTW: the invasion of Crimea started when Yanukovich was still the president, showing that this was planned no matter what.
And please stop with the BS of “NATO invite provoking Russia”, everyone knows, including putin, that NATO is a defensive alliance, and (as you also pointed out) unlike Russia it doesn’t conquer countries forcing them to join, the countries want to join themselves and seek to be invited. NATO is not a threat to Russia sovereignty. NATO is a threat to Russia’s imperialism, because allows those smaller countries to not be afraid of being invaded. This is why Poland and Baltic states joined EU and NATO on speed run when they got the opportunity. This is what Ukraine wants to do the same.
I don’t disagree why Euromaidan happen and what Yanokovich did. I agree with you on that. All I’m saying is that while all that was happening, there was also external pressure to help Ukraine split from it’s remaining Soviet ties. All I’m saying is that there was just enough of that to allow Russia to use it as an excuse for their behavior. Just like how in US during 2016 elections people were claiming that Hilary Clinton was being helped by the Russians. Then they said the same about Trump. And now that the dust is mostly settled we saw that “russian bots” were on both sides just trying to create chaos. I’m not claiming that the results of that election were affected by Russia in a meaningful way, but because they were present, they became a useful scapegoat. So, when it comes to Ukraine, all I’m saying is that I don’t think EU or NATO actually care if Ukraine joins, but they knew that it would weaken the CIS if Ukraine joined them, or if the war broke out.
Regarding Crimea, I’m sure that Putin and Yanukovich wanted to make Crimea Russian as a way to create a foothold. I think the whole “we’ll join EU” thing was never going to happen and Crimea was going to also be an excuse for not doing that.
I want to clarify what I mean regarding NATO and Russia and “provocation”. I’m not saying that the Putin was provoked. Putin was going to do everything in his power to keep Ukraine out of EU/NATO. All I’m saying is I think the Europeans knew that this will probably happen and didn’t care.
Ukraine and all the other Baltic nations should do what they want and if they want to join EU/NATO, that’s great. Putin is a piece of shit. But I feel like the support from the EU in this war has not been enough. And that lack of support makes me think that they don’t really care about “helping Ukraine” and they just want to keep Russia tied up in this war. Because they know Putin will keep this thing going until he physically can’t.
Whether you are doing this accidentally or purposefully, you are spreading Kremlin’s disinformation. Ukraine already split with Russia in 1991. And it was its own independent country. It traded with other countries. The reason they wanted to join EU is to help improve its economy. Belonging to EU opens market for exports to other EU countries and also allows to get funding for improvements.
Also regarding provoking Russia I think you forgot that the west largely saw Russia positively (it was the central and Eastern Europe that did not trust them) until 2022. Despite what they did in 2008 despite 2014. Putin thought west will chicken out once again when he snatches Ukraine to rebuild USSR.