I’d rather live under a state with a secure monopoly on violence than in a stateless chaos of violence. Anarchy isn’t a form of government. It’s simply the period before a group uses violence to establish itself as the government.
Let me ask you, would you rather deal with a cop or a warlord?
There’s the term “anarchy” describing a state of chaos, and there’s the philosophical political term anarchism, which is completely separate.
You’re assuming the chaos is what anarchist philosophers want, which is incorrect.
Authority would be handled democratically or rotationally in an anarchist society. As an example, the police could be voted into place at a meeting that occurs every saturday where anyone who wants can attend to decide what the people in a given region do.
Your response indicates you’ve never actually engaged with any anarchist philosophers or thought before, let me ask you this, do you really think no anarchist philosopher EVER thought of any of those points? Research the beliefs of bakunin, kropotkin, and the likes before giving strong opinions on anarchism, else you look unbelievably ignorant to anyone who actually is familiar with the material.
Central authority and law is meant to kept that chaos in check.
Law, sure, central authority? It does the opposite, it causes a great deal of misery and chaos. It is unchecked power held by few who won’t give it up under any circumstances, it maximizes the chaos of humanity. Freedom and democracy are the only counter-balance, and anarchists just want to maximize democracy.
Given your example, what would happen if two groups in the same town both elected their own police force with wildly different directives?
Both groups would show up to the meeting and either reach consensus or leave it to a democratic vote. I want to point out that this has NEVER happened in any anarchist society, why do you think this is a likely scenario? If they were absolutely deadset, I suppose there could be a schism, but there’s no historical reference for this, because why would this ever happen?
Please, if you’re going to try a gotcha argument like this, engage with the material and look for a historic reference. This WHAT IF THIS HAPPENS? can be done with any ideology, if there’s no historic reference for it, then sure, it could cause a disaster, but it hasn’t ever so why should I care? I can come up with countless theoretical disasters, and real ones for capitalism.
What happens when you give those cops the means to enforce their directives and they decide to enact their own rules?
They’ll do poorly at the next town meeting and probably be demoted/swapped out…
How would you even get them to do their job without a centrally backed currency?
They can choose not to do it, of course. There’s an idea of mutual aid, I scratch your back, you scratch mine, the people would be grateful for them doing a good job and would help them elsewise, as just one example. Mutualism actually has various currency-related anarchist strategies, a central authority is not needed for making a currency valid, I don’t know why you believe that premise to be the case.
Law, sure, central authority? It does the opposite, it causes a great deal of misery and chaos. It is unchecked power held by few who won’t give it up under any circumstances, it maximizes the chaos of humanity.
I agree central authority has the potential to lead to complete and utter chaos, like we saw in countless wars particularly WW1 and 2.
Both groups would show up to the meeting and either reach consensus or leave it to a democratic vote.
Or they’d decide to cling to their own power. It all depends on which individuals get to any position of power. In an anarchic society, smaller amounts of power can go a lot further. A militia of 10000 men roaming through a decentralized federation of people has the potential to do a lot of damage. With monopolized violence that militia would have a difficult time ever forming.
Most of my thinking is in regard to a state like America turning into an anarchist society. Given there’s 350 million~ Americans, it’s a certainty that there would be a plethora of groups organizing to solidify their power base. That’s why there are no anarchist nation-state sized population to look to as an example for the hypotheticals I’ve posed. Any opportunity for anarchism has already given way to a centralized government.
I can come up with countless theoretical disasters, and real ones for capitalism.
Wherever humans are involved, there will inevitably be disaster. There are many, many valid critiques of capitalism, especially the digital corporate capitalism that has taken over.
They can choose not to do it, of course. There’s an idea of mutual aid, I scratch your back, you scratch mine, the people would be grateful for them doing a good job and would help them elsewise, as just one example. Mutualism actually has various currency-related anarchist strategies, a central authority is not needed for making a currency valid, I don’t know why you believe that premise to be the case.
What would this look like in practice? If you lived in what is now California and you wanted to sell to someone in current day New York, what currency would you accept in lieu of money within an anarchist society?
Can you point to any example of this happening in any major anarchist society?
The fact there are none is proof that’s exactly what happens.
Yeah but why? Not because of any of the arguments you’re posing, but because anarchist societies have severeral disadvantages to start with, not because of anarchist philosophy, but because there’s people in power that desperately want anarchism to fail. Because if anarchism succeeded, their need for power would be in question. The bourgeois want anarchism to fail, the political elites want anarchism to fail, because if it doesn’t, they will have no reason to exist anymore, so, they will stop at nothing to destroy it. Anarchist societies are usually destroyed through militaristic means externally, not because of internal politics.
Exactly.
This doesn’t make your case against anarchism better, it makes it worse, if humans are given absolute power over a region, they’ll cause even more disasters than a democratic average of their wants and needs.
I think there’s been a bit of a misunderstanding. I should clarify that I do not wish that centralized government has to be the case. I wish human nature was not inherently violent and greedy. If anarchism could work, I would be happy to partake. However, I do not believe that it is possible for a sustained community to exist as an anarchy because human nature eventually pushes us to organize. We are a species dictated by game theory.
The fact there are none is proof that’s exactly what happens.
No, that is proof SOMETHING prevents them, not at all the thing you’re describing, proof the thing you’re describing would be a primary source saying that happened.
Exactly.
That means none of the problems with anarchism are internal, which is a significant blow to the notion that we shouldn’t be doing anarchism.
I think there’s been a bit of a misunderstanding. I should clarify that I do not wish that centralized government has to be the case.
It doesn’t, considering the only thing that stops anarchism is external forces destroying it, it’s completely possible.
I wish human nature was not inherently violent and greedy. If anarchism could work, I would be happy to partake. However, I do not believe that it is possible for a sustained community to exist as an anarchy because human nature eventually pushes us to organize.
This premise has nothing to do with anything, it doesn’t matter how violent or greedy people are, anarchist philosophy has no bearing on these ideas.
Anarchism is not disorganized, it’s actually HIGHLY organized, because it’s democratically managed.
We are a species dictated by game theory.
I don’t see what that has to do with anything.
So, first, you acknowledge that the only reason anarchism is destroyed is due to external forces, not internal politics, then, you say, see? anarchism is fundamentally flawed.
No, the world is setup in a way that destroys peoples movements in general, this isn’t a flaw with anarchist ideology, this just means it’s difficult to create an anarchist society while the US is a world superpower.
No, that is proof SOMETHING prevents them, not at all the thing you’re describing, proof the thing you’re describing would be a primary source saying that happened.
Thousands of years of human history is enough for me.
So, first, you acknowledge that the only reason anarchism is destroyed is due to external forces, not internal politics, then, you say, see?
As long as people are involved, there’s the possibility for something to wrong. Although, when there is no central government, there isn’t as much potential for severe internal political turmoil. The stakes are much lower because the communities would be much smaller.
There are millions of Jimmys. Self-serving, power hungry people end up in positions of power because they are willing to do whatever it takes to get there. It’s ok if you think I’m an ignorant asshole.
You do not understand anarchism in the slightest. You are imagining some Hobbsian hellscape out of a disaster movie, which is completely counter to human nature.
Sparta, the Third Reich, the French Revolution, Chattel America, the British Raj.
My point here is that a lack of a central government will naturally lead to some sort of central government establishing itself. It could come from inside or from an external threat. It’s possibly that that government turns out to be authoritarian and oppressive, like the ones I mentioned.
For instance, how would an anarchist ethnically Jewish society hold out against an industrial Nazi Germany should they be so unlucky to simply exist next to them?
The British Raj managed to establish itself and rape India for 90 years even despite there already being established governments in the region. Imagine how powerless an anarchic Indian society would’ve been to defend against the British Empire at it’s peak.
Anarchy is not sustainable. That’s why we should strive to put in place a good and equitable government to protect us from that possible tyranny. The problem is the same human forces corrupt government’s too.
Huh so they’re all based on hierarchical structures. And they came directly from other hierarchical structures. That’s interesting. It’s almost like your argument is nonsense because hellscapes are a result of hierarchical structures.
I’d rather live under a state with a secure monopoly on violence than in a stateless chaos of violence. Anarchy isn’t a form of government. It’s simply the period before a group uses violence to establish itself as the government.
Let me ask you, would you rather deal with a cop or a warlord?
There’s the term “anarchy” describing a state of chaos, and there’s the philosophical political term anarchism, which is completely separate.
You’re assuming the chaos is what anarchist philosophers want, which is incorrect.
Authority would be handled democratically or rotationally in an anarchist society. As an example, the police could be voted into place at a meeting that occurs every saturday where anyone who wants can attend to decide what the people in a given region do.
Chaos is a byproduct of human nature. Central authority and law is meant to kept that chaos in check.
Given your example, what would happen if two groups in the same town both elected their own police force with wildly different directives?
What happens when you give those cops the means to enforce their directives and they decide to enact their own rules?
How would you even get them to do their job without a centrally backed currency?
Your response indicates you’ve never actually engaged with any anarchist philosophers or thought before, let me ask you this, do you really think no anarchist philosopher EVER thought of any of those points? Research the beliefs of bakunin, kropotkin, and the likes before giving strong opinions on anarchism, else you look unbelievably ignorant to anyone who actually is familiar with the material.
Law, sure, central authority? It does the opposite, it causes a great deal of misery and chaos. It is unchecked power held by few who won’t give it up under any circumstances, it maximizes the chaos of humanity. Freedom and democracy are the only counter-balance, and anarchists just want to maximize democracy.
Both groups would show up to the meeting and either reach consensus or leave it to a democratic vote. I want to point out that this has NEVER happened in any anarchist society, why do you think this is a likely scenario? If they were absolutely deadset, I suppose there could be a schism, but there’s no historical reference for this, because why would this ever happen?
Please, if you’re going to try a gotcha argument like this, engage with the material and look for a historic reference. This WHAT IF THIS HAPPENS? can be done with any ideology, if there’s no historic reference for it, then sure, it could cause a disaster, but it hasn’t ever so why should I care? I can come up with countless theoretical disasters, and real ones for capitalism.
They’ll do poorly at the next town meeting and probably be demoted/swapped out…
They can choose not to do it, of course. There’s an idea of mutual aid, I scratch your back, you scratch mine, the people would be grateful for them doing a good job and would help them elsewise, as just one example. Mutualism actually has various currency-related anarchist strategies, a central authority is not needed for making a currency valid, I don’t know why you believe that premise to be the case.
I agree central authority has the potential to lead to complete and utter chaos, like we saw in countless wars particularly WW1 and 2.
Or they’d decide to cling to their own power. It all depends on which individuals get to any position of power. In an anarchic society, smaller amounts of power can go a lot further. A militia of 10000 men roaming through a decentralized federation of people has the potential to do a lot of damage. With monopolized violence that militia would have a difficult time ever forming.
Most of my thinking is in regard to a state like America turning into an anarchist society. Given there’s 350 million~ Americans, it’s a certainty that there would be a plethora of groups organizing to solidify their power base. That’s why there are no anarchist nation-state sized population to look to as an example for the hypotheticals I’ve posed. Any opportunity for anarchism has already given way to a centralized government.
Wherever humans are involved, there will inevitably be disaster. There are many, many valid critiques of capitalism, especially the digital corporate capitalism that has taken over.
What would this look like in practice? If you lived in what is now California and you wanted to sell to someone in current day New York, what currency would you accept in lieu of money within an anarchist society?
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The fact there are none is proof that’s exactly what happens.
Exactly.
I think there’s been a bit of a misunderstanding. I should clarify that I do not wish that centralized government has to be the case. I wish human nature was not inherently violent and greedy. If anarchism could work, I would be happy to partake. However, I do not believe that it is possible for a sustained community to exist as an anarchy because human nature eventually pushes us to organize. We are a species dictated by game theory.
No, that is proof SOMETHING prevents them, not at all the thing you’re describing, proof the thing you’re describing would be a primary source saying that happened.
That means none of the problems with anarchism are internal, which is a significant blow to the notion that we shouldn’t be doing anarchism.
It doesn’t, considering the only thing that stops anarchism is external forces destroying it, it’s completely possible.
This premise has nothing to do with anything, it doesn’t matter how violent or greedy people are, anarchist philosophy has no bearing on these ideas.
Anarchism is not disorganized, it’s actually HIGHLY organized, because it’s democratically managed.
I don’t see what that has to do with anything.
So, first, you acknowledge that the only reason anarchism is destroyed is due to external forces, not internal politics, then, you say, see? anarchism is fundamentally flawed.
No, the world is setup in a way that destroys peoples movements in general, this isn’t a flaw with anarchist ideology, this just means it’s difficult to create an anarchist society while the US is a world superpower.
Dude stop wasting all this effort on a willing idiot, save the energy for something useful.
Thousands of years of human history is enough for me.
As long as people are involved, there’s the possibility for something to wrong. Although, when there is no central government, there isn’t as much potential for severe internal political turmoil. The stakes are much lower because the communities would be much smaller.
I do appreciate how much hope you have.
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There are millions of Jimmys. Self-serving, power hungry people end up in positions of power because they are willing to do whatever it takes to get there. It’s ok if you think I’m an ignorant asshole.
You do not understand anarchism in the slightest. You are imagining some Hobbsian hellscape out of a disaster movie, which is completely counter to human nature.
This is the definition I am basing my perspective on.
“the organization of society on the basis of voluntary cooperation, without political institutions or hierarchical government; anarchism.”
Also human nature has created plenty of hellscapes in the past. Don’t think it can’t happen again.
Can you give some examples of those hellscapes?
Sparta, the Third Reich, the French Revolution, Chattel America, the British Raj.
My point here is that a lack of a central government will naturally lead to some sort of central government establishing itself. It could come from inside or from an external threat. It’s possibly that that government turns out to be authoritarian and oppressive, like the ones I mentioned.
For instance, how would an anarchist ethnically Jewish society hold out against an industrial Nazi Germany should they be so unlucky to simply exist next to them?
The British Raj managed to establish itself and rape India for 90 years even despite there already being established governments in the region. Imagine how powerless an anarchic Indian society would’ve been to defend against the British Empire at it’s peak.
Anarchy is not sustainable. That’s why we should strive to put in place a good and equitable government to protect us from that possible tyranny. The problem is the same human forces corrupt government’s too.
Huh so they’re all based on hierarchical structures. And they came directly from other hierarchical structures. That’s interesting. It’s almost like your argument is nonsense because hellscapes are a result of hierarchical structures.