And stil the state refuses to ban them, refuses to arrest and sentence their leaders.
It will be Weimar 2.0 with liberals being either too incompetent or too unwilling to stop fascism.
Fascism is not stopped at the podium or in parliament. It is stopped with bullets and bombs. The longer you wait the more bullets and bombs it will take and the more lives it will cost. We need a new, this time thorough, denazification.
in most contexts here ive heard “liberal” used to describe neoliberalism rather then leftism or libertarianism (though I know many conservatives in the US use it as a catch all for the left)
I’m American and I use the term “liberal” specifically to refer to neoliberals. I’m probably in the minority, though, especially given Fox News and GamerGate calling everything they don’t like “liberal”.
I think it’s enough to just do: arrests of leaders (and banning them from public speaking but for life) + breaking up the party + outlawing the party + banning people who decide to take up the mantle of/act as a declared proxy for the party and attempt to visibly pick up where they left off.
That last one I learned from my own country’'s current situation: in Romania, a crazy far right candidate came out of nowhere (on the wings of illegal undisclosed campaign donations) to win the first round, and as soon as that happened our mainstream far right party’s candidate started supporting him. Then they canceled the election because of the undisclosed donations (he literally declared 0 campaign spending!) so now, in the redo of the election, this other guy is basically running as his proxy and will likely try to appoint him PM if he wins.
Ideally arrests and executions will be enough. I think letting fascists live out their lives in prison is too dangerous. Too many political enemies have been released historically after government changes. Hitler himself didn’t even have to serve for life and was released early.
Weimar was a small civil war between soldiers who returned from WW1. That’s why both the left and the right had fighters. Where should the fighters who shoot the bullets come from now?
The fascists came to power because the elite feared that the communists could win. Otherwise, despite massive manipulation, the fascists never got an absolute majority.
There are many issues that other parties simply ignore. There would be far less voteres for the AfD if the other parties would listen. The AfD started with the demand that the rules about euro stability shouldn’t be ignored. That’s not a fascist position.
Unfortunately, the other parties are very well taking up the Nazis’ lies. The Nazis are playing the political establishment like a fiddle.
To stick with your example of the potato sack, the established parties do just jump the Nazi bandwagon and parrot their narrative in a less extreme manner, like “Illegal immigrants kicking over potato sacks is a severe problem, we need to protect our potato sacks by border controls and increased deportations.”
Just as one AfD politician remarked last year, (after the election in Thuringia, if I recall right) the AfD is ruling without actually being in the government.
I think the problem can be summed up as poll driven politics.
It’s a feedback loop, they do focus on a topic some opinion poll has shown to be somewhat popular, the resulting exposure increases popularity, which reflects in the polls, which leads to increased political focus on the topic…
In America at least, this is as a direct result of corporate media and money in politics both controlling the narrative. None of this was naturally occurring.
Not that different in Germany. The biggest difference in the media landscape, the pretty large public broadcasters aren’t really a difference, because their governing bodies and leadership positions are stuffed with (ex) politicians and their relatives.
But it isn’t false. They are literal nazis and say literal nazi things.
Several offices for the protection of the constitution of the German Länder (they are a kind of anti-extremist intelligence services, in case you don’t know) have found them to be “assuredly right-wing-extremists”, which is the worst possible classification the law recognises.
Not sure what the exact quote for “gas the jews!” is as they probably said it in German, but it’s very likley someone in the AfD said something that would translate to that on record.
So according to you, the people who want everyone with the wrong kind of mustache to be deported, who want citizenships revoked, who want to “remove the outmoded political party system”, who are already obstructing the judicial system in Thurinigia, who want to defund public media because it’s “too woke”, who want to gut universities because they are “too woke”, who want to fuck up the environment because - guess what - also “woke”, and who want to overthrow the constitutional order are not the fascists?
Fwiw, German law explicitly allows the government to ask the constitutional court to check whether a party behaves consistently with constitutional order, and if not, outlawing them based on that. The German constitution includes some learnings from WWII: This includes a paragraphs on non-discrimination, on the individual right to asylum, on outlawing parties that threaten to overthrow the constitutional order.
I had multiple reports on the comment, you know, you called people here “nazis”. I don’t know in what sense you feel mischaracterized though. There is no direct or indirect quote from you in my comment.
The question still stands though: We have a group of people that exhibits a bunch of characteristics of nazis (see above). And you say that the people who don’t like them are the nazis.
I was giving context on what Afd wants, and then asking, if you really think they are the good guys here. That’s not a mischaracterization of your words.
I am not the one you are asking, but personally, in my honest opinion: An “emergency government”, lets say with a 20 year term, removing far right parties, doing the necessary changes to massively reduce our climate impact and prepare for the ineviteable fallout from climate change and doing other reforms wouldn’t be THAT bad of an idea…
It absolutely would be a horrible idea lol. wtf are you talking about?!
You’re asking for a dictatorship as long as it’s one that says they’ll do what you want. If you make rules allowing for a political party to remove any competitors and install themselves in power for as long as they want, how could it possibly go wrong?. Jesus Christ.
So would you be ok with trump declaring an emergency government for himself for the next 20 years and removing all far left policies and making sure no left of centre parties can ever take control?
No, what i am dalking about is: We WILL see a rise of an authoritarian party in germany in the near future, as we see with many countries worldwide at the moment. And i say: IF we are already doomed to have an authoritarian / fascist regime, i prefer it to be on the ecofascist side. And if there will be an opportunity for such an regime, well, i WILL support it.
Not sure, but installing an unelected goverment and abolishing elections for 20 years is literally fighting fascism with fascism, so let’s not do that.
I am a bit fatalistic and perhaps a bit on the doomer side, but i am pretty sure we will get fascism one way or the other soon… and if this is ineviteable, i am very much in favour of installing ecofascism instead of other forms.
No it wouldn’t, it would make you smart enough to speak to the fascists in the only language they understand. Words don’t work against fascists because they don’t care what words mean. Better to defend yourself now while you still can.
And stil the state refuses to ban them, refuses to arrest and sentence their leaders.
It will be Weimar 2.0 with liberals being either too incompetent or too unwilling to stop fascism.
Fascism is not stopped at the podium or in parliament. It is stopped with bullets and bombs. The longer you wait the more bullets and bombs it will take and the more lives it will cost. We need a new, this time thorough, denazification.
Liberal does not mean leftist outside of the USA. Liberal actually means what is called libertarian in the USA.
I have not called liberals leftist and never would. I’m not on that American brainrot.
in most contexts here ive heard “liberal” used to describe neoliberalism rather then leftism or libertarianism (though I know many conservatives in the US use it as a catch all for the left)
I’m American and I use the term “liberal” specifically to refer to neoliberals. I’m probably in the minority, though, especially given Fox News and GamerGate calling everything they don’t like “liberal”.
I think it’s enough to just do: arrests of leaders (and banning them from public speaking but for life) + breaking up the party + outlawing the party + banning people who decide to take up the mantle of/act as a declared proxy for the party and attempt to visibly pick up where they left off.
That last one I learned from my own country’'s current situation: in Romania, a crazy far right candidate came out of nowhere (on the wings of illegal undisclosed campaign donations) to win the first round, and as soon as that happened our mainstream far right party’s candidate started supporting him. Then they canceled the election because of the undisclosed donations (he literally declared 0 campaign spending!) so now, in the redo of the election, this other guy is basically running as his proxy and will likely try to appoint him PM if he wins.
Ideally arrests and executions will be enough. I think letting fascists live out their lives in prison is too dangerous. Too many political enemies have been released historically after government changes. Hitler himself didn’t even have to serve for life and was released early.
Weimar was a small civil war between soldiers who returned from WW1. That’s why both the left and the right had fighters. Where should the fighters who shoot the bullets come from now?
The fascists came to power because the elite feared that the communists could win. Otherwise, despite massive manipulation, the fascists never got an absolute majority.
There are many issues that other parties simply ignore. There would be far less voteres for the AfD if the other parties would listen. The AfD started with the demand that the rules about euro stability shouldn’t be ignored. That’s not a fascist position.
The other parties are not taking up AfDs made up causes because they are made up.
For example:
A sack of potatoes falls.
AfD: Foreigners are causing the sacks to fall! We must gas them! And the jews!
Other parties: This is so stupid it doesn’t even warrant a response.
General public: but the foreigners!!111!1!!!11 and the potatoes!!1! I am outraged!!!111!!!
Unfortunately, the other parties are very well taking up the Nazis’ lies. The Nazis are playing the political establishment like a fiddle.
To stick with your example of the potato sack, the established parties do just jump the Nazi bandwagon and parrot their narrative in a less extreme manner, like “Illegal immigrants kicking over potato sacks is a severe problem, we need to protect our potato sacks by border controls and increased deportations.”
Just as one AfD politician remarked last year, (after the election in Thuringia, if I recall right) the AfD is ruling without actually being in the government.
This reflects American politics as well.
I think the problem can be summed up as poll driven politics.
It’s a feedback loop, they do focus on a topic some opinion poll has shown to be somewhat popular, the resulting exposure increases popularity, which reflects in the polls, which leads to increased political focus on the topic…
In America at least, this is as a direct result of corporate media and money in politics both controlling the narrative. None of this was naturally occurring.
Not that different in Germany. The biggest difference in the media landscape, the pretty large public broadcasters aren’t really a difference, because their governing bodies and leadership positions are stuffed with (ex) politicians and their relatives.
Same thing here, but with basically every industry and not just news media. We call it the “revolving door” effect.
I don’t think that you make a good point if you yourself make up your point. Please quote the AfD to avoid all doubt.
Of course. Here is an AfD quote:
Hope that makes it clearer.
Don’t you see that false quotes undermine your position?
But it isn’t false. They are literal nazis and say literal nazi things.
Several offices for the protection of the constitution of the German Länder (they are a kind of anti-extremist intelligence services, in case you don’t know) have found them to be “assuredly right-wing-extremists”, which is the worst possible classification the law recognises.
Again. Literal, actual, nazis.
Yes. That’s why you should quote what they literally say. It’s not a quote if you write what you think they say.
“Sieg Heil” is definitly a real AfD quote, Marcel Grauf said that in a private chat that was evidence in a court case.
Not sure what the exact quote for “gas the jews!” is as they probably said it in German, but it’s very likley someone in the AfD said something that would translate to that on record.
But starting and organizing a violent opposition seem like so much effort. And I really have to finish some shows I’ve been watching.
Just so we’re clear - you’re calling for an end to democracy in Germany? You’re asking for the will of the people to be ignored and actually outlawed?
There can be no tolerance against intolerance, it’s a paradox.
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So according to you, the people who want everyone with the wrong kind of mustache to be deported, who want citizenships revoked, who want to “remove the outmoded political party system”, who are already obstructing the judicial system in Thurinigia, who want to defund public media because it’s “too woke”, who want to gut universities because they are “too woke”, who want to fuck up the environment because - guess what - also “woke”, and who want to overthrow the constitutional order are not the fascists?
Fwiw, German law explicitly allows the government to ask the constitutional court to check whether a party behaves consistently with constitutional order, and if not, outlawing them based on that. The German constitution includes some learnings from WWII: This includes a paragraphs on non-discrimination, on the individual right to asylum, on outlawing parties that threaten to overthrow the constitutional order.
Did you just delete my comment and reply to it so no one can see what I actually said, while completely fabricating the message of what I said? Lol
I had multiple reports on the comment, you know, you called people here “nazis”. I don’t know in what sense you feel mischaracterized though. There is no direct or indirect quote from you in my comment.
The question still stands though: We have a group of people that exhibits a bunch of characteristics of nazis (see above). And you say that the people who don’t like them are the nazis.
I’m the one being called a nazi repeatedly! Lol
Also your post literally starts with
And then goes on to say a bunch of stuff that I DID NOT SAY NOR EVEN HINT AT - and then you say there was no mischaracterization? No “indirect quote”?
You literally made up things and said that it was “according to me”!
I was giving context on what Afd wants, and then asking, if you really think they are the good guys here. That’s not a mischaracterization of your words.
I am not the one you are asking, but personally, in my honest opinion: An “emergency government”, lets say with a 20 year term, removing far right parties, doing the necessary changes to massively reduce our climate impact and prepare for the ineviteable fallout from climate change and doing other reforms wouldn’t be THAT bad of an idea…
It absolutely would be a horrible idea lol. wtf are you talking about?!
You’re asking for a dictatorship as long as it’s one that says they’ll do what you want. If you make rules allowing for a political party to remove any competitors and install themselves in power for as long as they want, how could it possibly go wrong?. Jesus Christ.
So would you be ok with trump declaring an emergency government for himself for the next 20 years and removing all far left policies and making sure no left of centre parties can ever take control?
No, what i am dalking about is: We WILL see a rise of an authoritarian party in germany in the near future, as we see with many countries worldwide at the moment. And i say: IF we are already doomed to have an authoritarian / fascist regime, i prefer it to be on the ecofascist side. And if there will be an opportunity for such an regime, well, i WILL support it.
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I have relatives in China and Vietnam and lived in both places for extended periods of time… well, let’s just say i have a rough estimate…
So which western countries are heading towards authoritarianism?
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Yeah, “emergency powers” have never caused any problems in the past …
What else can you do when > 50% of the population is unwilling to help solving the single most dangerous problem in human history?
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Yup, can not deny that
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Not sure, but installing an unelected goverment and abolishing elections for 20 years is literally fighting fascism with fascism, so let’s not do that.
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I am a bit fatalistic and perhaps a bit on the doomer side, but i am pretty sure we will get fascism one way or the other soon… and if this is ineviteable, i am very much in favour of installing ecofascism instead of other forms.
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Using bullets and bombs would make the rest not better than the fascists, so lets not use them.
Once they take power, the only thing that can stop them is bullets and bombs. And Fascists do have a nasty habit of shooting first, if you let them.
We don’t need to be tolerant to the intolerant.
No it wouldn’t, it would make you smart enough to speak to the fascists in the only language they understand. Words don’t work against fascists because they don’t care what words mean. Better to defend yourself now while you still can.
War and violence have existed long before fascism. It’s not their invention or monopoly.
True. But I don’t want the world to be that bad. I want to live without war and violence.