No, the 1990s, when it was one of the issues in US foreign policy.
Oh, you’re talking about that. In that case you should know that the period of the conflict where such a thing was possible ended when Rabin was assassinated and Netanyahu took his place. See: Literally his whole career, but most relevantly:
They asked me before the election if I’d honor [the Oslo Accords] […] I said I would, but … I’m going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I’m concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue.
And, well, there’s a reason they call him the king of Israeli politics and it’s definitely not because his policies are unpopular. Both Fatah’s Oslo-era strategy and the West’s strategy at the time were just never going to work with people like that.
In that case you should know that the period of the conflict where such a thing was possible ended when Rabin was assassinated and Netanyahu took his place.
… okay? How does that affect the fact that, demonstrably, Western and US interest was very acute and intense long before Hamas was a major force in the matter?
This is, after all, what you said and I objected to:
They also wouldn’t need to, because the West wouldn’t give a shit about Gaza without Hamas activities to put Palestine in the news.
Yeah fair enough I went on a weird tangent there. What I was trying to say was that the Western interest and support you were talking about was the kind that needed a good faith Israeli effort to amount to anything. There was no interest in forcing peace on Israel, is the point I was trying to make. That’s why when Israel put its foot down and said “nope” pretty much everyone played along, as best exemplified by the absolute shitshow that was Western reaction to the 2006 Palestinian elections. The kind of abject horror that’s now making four different heads of state say “we are not exporting weapons to Israel” (with varying degrees of truthfulness) to placate their populations simply wasn’t there. So to respond to your point: Western governments and people did want to being peace to Palestine, but it was viewed as just another regional conflict, not as settler colonists ethnically cleansing an indigenous population with Western support, so they were just another participant in the farce.
That’s why when Israel put its foot down and said “nope” pretty much everyone played along, as best exemplified by the absolute shitshow that was Western reaction to the 2006 Palestinian elections.
What reaction was it that you regard as a shitshow to the 2006 Palestinian elections?
The kind of abject horror that’s now making four different heads of state say “we are not exporting weapons to Israel” (with varying degrees of truthfulness) to placate their populations simply wasn’t there.
Yes, that’s taken an additional 20 years of Israeli massacres.
So to respond to your point: Western governments and people did want to being peace to Palestine, but it was viewed as just another regional conflict, not as settler colonists ethnically cleansing an indigenous population with Western support, so they were just another participant in the farce.
None of that has anything to do with the point regarding Hamas and whether its behavior has been in some way central to Western awareness of Gaza.
They also wouldn’t need to, because the West wouldn’t give a shit about Gaza without Hamas activities to put Palestine in the news.
Is your argument that Hamas running a disproportionately conservative mafia state in Gaza, funded by Israel and American ‘allies’ like Qatar, and the resulting tensions between Hamas and Fatah, wherein elections have been impossible for nearly 20 years now, has been in some way pivotal towards Western awareness of Israeli crimes?
Or has it been that the past 25 years of total domination of the Israeli right over the Israeli government has resulted in a government policy by the Israeli right that is, necessarily, more naked and brutal than ever to appeal to their core constituencies and hold onto power, alienating foreign allies to shore up domestic support, and Hamas’s contribution has been limited to boosting the polling numbers of Bibi et co?
What reaction was it that you regard as a shitshow to the 2006 Palestinian elections?
Enjoy. The short of it is what you probably already expect: The Quartet (most relevantly the EU and US) imposed sanctions on the PA, Israel arrested a ton of Palestinian MPs, ministers and Hamas members, the US and Israel conspired with Fatah to overthrow the democratically elected Hamas government (either by calling new elections or by force) and the Quartet (again, most relevantly the EU and US) managed to somehow ignore all this and call on Hamas to moderate, accept Israel’s right to exist and denounce violence, nonsense that stopped working in 1996. Basically Western countries spat in the face of the democratic process they promoted when it didn’t produce the puppets they wanted it to produce. And to rub salt in the wound who did they want to lead after Hamas was deposed? Fucking Mahmoud Abbas, the guy who has been running Fatah (and therefore the West Bank) for 20 years.
Yes, that’s taken an additional 20 years of Israeli massacres.
No effective resistance was going to make it without Israeli massacres. I could list examples all the way from the 1930s, but most relevantly we have the anti-occupation resistance in Lebanon, the First Intifada (2000 dead) and the Second Intifada (3500 dead). If Palestinians intended to avoid Israeli massacres their only course of action would be to give up. Now the current genocide is clearly a whole different beast, but something like the 2008 Gaza war is very much in line with what one would expect when resisting Israeli occupation.
None of that has anything to do with the point regarding Hamas and whether its behavior has been in some way central to Western awareness of Gaza.
It does. Western “interest and support” after 1996 was a farce, and not at all something that could lead to peace, therefore for all intents and purposes yes the West didn’t give a shit about the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza or elsewhere, in the same way your average white moderate didn’t give a shit about the suffering of black people during the Civil Rights Movement.
Is your argument that Hamas running a disproportionately conservative mafia state in Gaza, funded by Israel and American ‘allies’ like Qatar, and the resulting tensions between Hamas and Fatah, wherein elections have been impossible for nearly 20 years now, has been in some way pivotal towards Western awareness of Israeli crimes?
Okay if you believe what you’re saying and are trying to have an honest conversation then ignoring everything that’s relevant from the other side’s argument and treating that as a gotcha is really not a good look. Hamas’s conservative mafia state hasn’t been pivotal towards Western awareness of Israeli crimes, but them picking fights with Israel politically and militarily in ways that despite Israel’s best efforts end up in global news in very unflattering ways. At least, that’s the argument you’re supposed to be arguing against, not that Hamas banning dog walking and cracking down on dissent is the peak of Palestinian resistance.
Or has it been that the past 25 years of total domination of the Israeli right over the Israeli government has resulted in a government policy by the Israeli right that is, necessarily, more naked and brutal than ever to appeal to their core constituencies and hold onto power, alienating foreign allies to shore up domestic support, and Hamas’s contribution has been limited to boosting the polling numbers of Bibi et co?
Here’s the thing: You need something to highlight the nakedness and brutality (which I’d argue is the same as ever, just with a brief stint with sanity in the early 1990s, but that’s not relevant here), because Israeli settlements just don’t make global news. I mean how many non-Hamas related events in Palestine have gotten global outrage since 2007? The West Bank is almost completely under the rule of the deeply compromised Fatah, and that’s why it’s always playing second fiddle to Gaza in global discourse.
Enjoy. The short of it is what you probably already expect: The Quartet (most relevantly the EU and US) imposed sanctions on the PA, Israel arrested a ton of Palestinian MPs, ministers and Hamas members, the US and Israel conspired with Fatah to overthrow the democratically elected Hamas government (either by calling new elections or by force) and the Quartet (again, most relevantly the EU and US) managed to somehow ignore all this and call on Hamas to moderate, accept Israel’s right to exist and denounce violence, nonsense that stopped working in 1996. Basically Western countries spat in the face of the democratic process they promoted when it didn’t produce the puppets they wanted it to produce. And to rub salt in the wound who did they want to lead after Hamas was deposed? Fucking Mahmoud Abbas, the guy who has been running Fatah (and therefore the West Bank) for 20 years.
I have a lot I could say on this, but for now, I’ll keep it at “This is what I understood the reaction to be and I disagree with your characterization”, since this conversation is already covering a whole lot of shit.
No effective resistance was going to make it without Israeli massacres.
That’s not my point. My point is that Hamas is not what has raised awareness, but the increasing intensity of the Israeli state in massacring the Palestinian people for the aforementioned domestic political reasons.
It does. Western “interest and support” after 1996 was a farce, and not at all something that could lead to peace, therefore for all intents and purposes yes the West didn’t give a shit about the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza or elsewhere, in the same way your average white moderate didn’t give a shit about the suffering of black people during the Civil Rights Movement.
Ah, no TRUE interest and support. Got it. Just had to narrow and redefine the criteria once the initial claim was disproven.
By the way, how is the Western “interest and support” now, with Hamas’s heroic efforts, going to lead to peace?
Are we counting the total genocide of the Palestinian people as peace?
Or is it fingerwagging as effective action?
Okay if you believe what you’re saying and are trying to have an honest conversation then ignoring everything that’s relevant from the other side’s argument and treating that as a gotcha is really not a good look. Hamas’s conservative mafia state hasn’t been pivotal towards Western awareness of Israeli crimes, but them picking fights with Israel politically and militarily in ways that despite Israel’s best efforts end up in global news in very unflattering ways.
… do you think Israel would be refraining from these crimes were it not for Hamas?
Here’s the thing: You need something to highlight the nakedness and brutality (which I’d argue is the same as ever, just with a brief stint with sanity in the early 1990s, but that’s not relevant here), because Israeli settlements just don’t make global news.
That’s not at all fucking true. Jesus Christ. It was a major issue in the US, poster child for “I only know geography because of war”, during Bush Jr’s term, even despite the other much more major foreign policy issues taking up air in American electoral politics at the time.
I mean how many non-Hamas related events in Palestine have gotten global outrage since 2007? The West Bank is almost completely under the rule of the deeply compromised Fatah, and that’s why it’s always playing second fiddle to Gaza in global discourse.
“Israel is focused on genociding Gaza, therefore, whoever is in charge there is the TRUE hero of The Resistance™ and Making A Difference™, unlike whoever is in the West Bank!”
Love that Fatah is ‘deeply compromised’ while the literal Mossad plant is lionized.
Ah, no TRUE interest and support. Got it. Just had to narrow and redefine the criteria once the initial claim was disproven.
No, I had to state my criteria, which I didn’t initially because I wasn’t writing a thesis. You seem to disagree disagree, but as stated above I consider Western conduct during 1996-2007 nothing short of farcical, so morally upstanding global citizens such as Bill Clinton and Tony Blair can take their so-called interest and support, shove it up their asses and die in a ditch so the next generation can at least try and get something done.
By the way, how is the Western “interest and support” now, with Hamas’s heroic efforts, going to lead to peace?
By cutting Israel’s access to trade and weaponry from its closest allies? This isn’t a hypothetical; this is actually happening (I know, not the most impartial source). To repeat, Palestinians have to survive Israel’s genocide first, but if they clear that (admittedly pretty big) hurdle their chances of liberation within a generation or two are actually looking pretty good.
… do you think Israel would be refraining from these crimes were it not for Hamas?
Yes, in their place they’d be (and are, in the West Bank) committing other crimes that are no less abhorrent but more ignorable on the global stage.
It was a major issue in the US, poster child for “I only know geography because of war”, during Bush Jr’s term, even despite the other much more major foreign policy issues taking up air in American electoral politics at the time.
Bush Jr’s term, which coincided with checks notes the Second Intifada. This is exactly what I’m talking about; you need something “newsworthy” to highlight all the horrible shit Israel does to Palestinians daily. Issues like settlements, Palestinian detainees and the Gaza blockade (until October 7th) only take prominence against the backdrop of a major upheaval by Palestinians or a major atrocity against them. It didn’t need to be Hamas doing (or being the excuse for) these things, but it is.
“Israel is focused on genociding Gaza, therefore, whoever is in charge there is the TRUE hero of The Resistance™ and Making A Difference™, unlike whoever is in the West Bank!”
I have no love for Hamas, but the idea that they’ve irrelevant to the Palestinian cause simply makes no sense. Would Good Friday have happened without the IRA? What about the overthrow of Apartheid without the ANC?
Love that Fatah is ‘deeply compromised’ while the literal Mossad plant is lionized.
I mean why is fascists being short-sighted assholes who only care about their own self-interest at the expense of the national interest (in this case oppressing Palestinians for as long as possible) that hard to believe? These guys supported the formation of a Hamas because they were “harmless apolitical Islamists;” that’s already enough evidence to declare them terminally stupid.
By cutting Israel’s access to trade and weaponry from its closest allies? This isn’t a hypothetical; this is actually happening (I know, not the most impartial source). To repeat, Palestinians have to survive Israel’s genocide first, but if they clear that (admittedly pretty big) hurdle their chances of liberation within a generation or two are actually looking pretty good.
Holy fucking shit.
This is pure delusion.
Yes, in their place they’d be (and are, in the West Bank) committing other crimes that are no less abhorrent but more ignorable on the global stage.
No less abhorrent? Fucking what. Do you understand what the difference between the treatment of the West Bank and Gaza?
What the fuck.
Bush Jr’s term, which coincided with checks notes the Second Intifada.
Yes, launched by the PLO.
Other than the dubious argument that there has been always been upheaval in Palestine - which would render the question of why Hamas is so bootlick-worthy - when exactly do you think there has been ‘calm’ with which to contrast your argument of supposed Western disinterest? Go on. Cite me a time when you think that Western disinterest was high.
This is exactly what I’m talking about; you need something “newsworthy” to highlight all the horrible shit Israel does to Palestinians daily. Issues like settlements, Palestinian detainees and the Gaza blockade (until October 7th) only take prominence against the backdrop of a major upheaval by Palestinians or a major atrocity against them. It didn’t need to be Hamas doing (or being the excuse for) these things, but it is.
And how did that go, ‘highlighting’ the treatment before Oct 7th? Surely there were dividends - increased Western support before Oct 7th, right? Awareness?
Oh, wait, of course, it won’t be ‘true’ awareness, because ‘true’ awareness is only when it’s in support of Hamas.
I have no love for Hamas, but the idea that they’ve irrelevant to the Palestinian cause simply makes no sense. Would Good Friday have happened without the IRA? What about the overthrow of Apartheid without the ANC?
This is more like ‘brilliantly’ maneuvering themselves into being slaughtered and their entire nation dismantled. You operate by citing groups which were at the head of a mostly-united struggle against their foe, and who eventually won - Hamas is not the united face of the Palestinian struggle, and it sure as shit is looking like anything but winning. “Would resistance have succeeded without resistance groups???” is completely ignoring that not all resistance groups are successful. Far fucking from it - they can be outright counterproductive. But I guess that’s only something that can be understood if the lionized Islamists du jour aren’t involved.
Counterculture as a lens of viewing politics is fucking cancer.
I mean why is fascists being short-sighted assholes who only care about their own self-interest at the expense of the national interest (in this case oppressing Palestinians for as long as possible) that hard to believe? These guys supported the formation of a Hamas because they were “harmless apolitical Islamists;” that’s already enough evidence to declare them terminally stupid.
I love that Fatah are fascists now. Deeply unfucking serious. Doubly absurd considering the lengths you’re going to play apologist for Hamas.
Yes. Since the fucking 90s.
No, the 1990s, when it was one of the issues in US foreign policy.
Oh, you’re talking about that. In that case you should know that the period of the conflict where such a thing was possible ended when Rabin was assassinated and Netanyahu took his place. See: Literally his whole career, but most relevantly:
And, well, there’s a reason they call him the king of Israeli politics and it’s definitely not because his policies are unpopular. Both Fatah’s Oslo-era strategy and the West’s strategy at the time were just never going to work with people like that.
… okay? How does that affect the fact that, demonstrably, Western and US interest was very acute and intense long before Hamas was a major force in the matter?
This is, after all, what you said and I objected to:
Yeah fair enough I went on a weird tangent there. What I was trying to say was that the Western interest and support you were talking about was the kind that needed a good faith Israeli effort to amount to anything. There was no interest in forcing peace on Israel, is the point I was trying to make. That’s why when Israel put its foot down and said “nope” pretty much everyone played along, as best exemplified by the absolute shitshow that was Western reaction to the 2006 Palestinian elections. The kind of abject horror that’s now making four different heads of state say “we are not exporting weapons to Israel” (with varying degrees of truthfulness) to placate their populations simply wasn’t there. So to respond to your point: Western governments and people did want to being peace to Palestine, but it was viewed as just another regional conflict, not as settler colonists ethnically cleansing an indigenous population with Western support, so they were just another participant in the farce.
What reaction was it that you regard as a shitshow to the 2006 Palestinian elections?
Yes, that’s taken an additional 20 years of Israeli massacres.
None of that has anything to do with the point regarding Hamas and whether its behavior has been in some way central to Western awareness of Gaza.
Is your argument that Hamas running a disproportionately conservative mafia state in Gaza, funded by Israel and American ‘allies’ like Qatar, and the resulting tensions between Hamas and Fatah, wherein elections have been impossible for nearly 20 years now, has been in some way pivotal towards Western awareness of Israeli crimes?
Or has it been that the past 25 years of total domination of the Israeli right over the Israeli government has resulted in a government policy by the Israeli right that is, necessarily, more naked and brutal than ever to appeal to their core constituencies and hold onto power, alienating foreign allies to shore up domestic support, and Hamas’s contribution has been limited to boosting the polling numbers of Bibi et co?
Enjoy. The short of it is what you probably already expect: The Quartet (most relevantly the EU and US) imposed sanctions on the PA, Israel arrested a ton of Palestinian MPs, ministers and Hamas members, the US and Israel conspired with Fatah to overthrow the democratically elected Hamas government (either by calling new elections or by force) and the Quartet (again, most relevantly the EU and US) managed to somehow ignore all this and call on Hamas to moderate, accept Israel’s right to exist and denounce violence, nonsense that stopped working in 1996. Basically Western countries spat in the face of the democratic process they promoted when it didn’t produce the puppets they wanted it to produce. And to rub salt in the wound who did they want to lead after Hamas was deposed? Fucking Mahmoud Abbas, the guy who has been running Fatah (and therefore the West Bank) for 20 years.
No effective resistance was going to make it without Israeli massacres. I could list examples all the way from the 1930s, but most relevantly we have the anti-occupation resistance in Lebanon, the First Intifada (2000 dead) and the Second Intifada (3500 dead). If Palestinians intended to avoid Israeli massacres their only course of action would be to give up. Now the current genocide is clearly a whole different beast, but something like the 2008 Gaza war is very much in line with what one would expect when resisting Israeli occupation.
It does. Western “interest and support” after 1996 was a farce, and not at all something that could lead to peace, therefore for all intents and purposes yes the West didn’t give a shit about the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza or elsewhere, in the same way your average white moderate didn’t give a shit about the suffering of black people during the Civil Rights Movement.
Okay if you believe what you’re saying and are trying to have an honest conversation then ignoring everything that’s relevant from the other side’s argument and treating that as a gotcha is really not a good look. Hamas’s conservative mafia state hasn’t been pivotal towards Western awareness of Israeli crimes, but them picking fights with Israel politically and militarily in ways that despite Israel’s best efforts end up in global news in very unflattering ways. At least, that’s the argument you’re supposed to be arguing against, not that Hamas banning dog walking and cracking down on dissent is the peak of Palestinian resistance.
Here’s the thing: You need something to highlight the nakedness and brutality (which I’d argue is the same as ever, just with a brief stint with sanity in the early 1990s, but that’s not relevant here), because Israeli settlements just don’t make global news. I mean how many non-Hamas related events in Palestine have gotten global outrage since 2007? The West Bank is almost completely under the rule of the deeply compromised Fatah, and that’s why it’s always playing second fiddle to Gaza in global discourse.
I have a lot I could say on this, but for now, I’ll keep it at “This is what I understood the reaction to be and I disagree with your characterization”, since this conversation is already covering a whole lot of shit.
That’s not my point. My point is that Hamas is not what has raised awareness, but the increasing intensity of the Israeli state in massacring the Palestinian people for the aforementioned domestic political reasons.
Ah, no TRUE interest and support. Got it. Just had to narrow and redefine the criteria once the initial claim was disproven.
By the way, how is the Western “interest and support” now, with Hamas’s heroic efforts, going to lead to peace?
Are we counting the total genocide of the Palestinian people as peace?
Or is it fingerwagging as effective action?
… do you think Israel would be refraining from these crimes were it not for Hamas?
That’s not at all fucking true. Jesus Christ. It was a major issue in the US, poster child for “I only know geography because of war”, during Bush Jr’s term, even despite the other much more major foreign policy issues taking up air in American electoral politics at the time.
“Israel is focused on genociding Gaza, therefore, whoever is in charge there is the TRUE hero of The Resistance™ and Making A Difference™, unlike whoever is in the West Bank!”
Love that Fatah is ‘deeply compromised’ while the literal Mossad plant is lionized.
No, I had to state my criteria, which I didn’t initially because I wasn’t writing a thesis. You seem to disagree disagree, but as stated above I consider Western conduct during 1996-2007 nothing short of farcical, so morally upstanding global citizens such as Bill Clinton and Tony Blair can take their so-called interest and support, shove it up their asses and die in a ditch so the next generation can at least try and get something done.
By cutting Israel’s access to trade and weaponry from its closest allies? This isn’t a hypothetical; this is actually happening (I know, not the most impartial source). To repeat, Palestinians have to survive Israel’s genocide first, but if they clear that (admittedly pretty big) hurdle their chances of liberation within a generation or two are actually looking pretty good.
Yes, in their place they’d be (and are, in the West Bank) committing other crimes that are no less abhorrent but more ignorable on the global stage.
Bush Jr’s term, which coincided with checks notes the Second Intifada. This is exactly what I’m talking about; you need something “newsworthy” to highlight all the horrible shit Israel does to Palestinians daily. Issues like settlements, Palestinian detainees and the Gaza blockade (until October 7th) only take prominence against the backdrop of a major upheaval by Palestinians or a major atrocity against them. It didn’t need to be Hamas doing (or being the excuse for) these things, but it is.
I have no love for Hamas, but the idea that they’ve irrelevant to the Palestinian cause simply makes no sense. Would Good Friday have happened without the IRA? What about the overthrow of Apartheid without the ANC?
I mean why is fascists being short-sighted assholes who only care about their own self-interest at the expense of the national interest (in this case oppressing Palestinians for as long as possible) that hard to believe? These guys supported the formation of a Hamas because they were “harmless apolitical Islamists;” that’s already enough evidence to declare them terminally stupid.
Holy fucking shit.
This is pure delusion.
No less abhorrent? Fucking what. Do you understand what the difference between the treatment of the West Bank and Gaza?
What the fuck.
Yes, launched by the PLO.
Other than the dubious argument that there has been always been upheaval in Palestine - which would render the question of why Hamas is so bootlick-worthy - when exactly do you think there has been ‘calm’ with which to contrast your argument of supposed Western disinterest? Go on. Cite me a time when you think that Western disinterest was high.
And how did that go, ‘highlighting’ the treatment before Oct 7th? Surely there were dividends - increased Western support before Oct 7th, right? Awareness?
Oh, wait, of course, it won’t be ‘true’ awareness, because ‘true’ awareness is only when it’s in support of Hamas.
This is more like ‘brilliantly’ maneuvering themselves into being slaughtered and their entire nation dismantled. You operate by citing groups which were at the head of a mostly-united struggle against their foe, and who eventually won - Hamas is not the united face of the Palestinian struggle, and it sure as shit is looking like anything but winning. “Would resistance have succeeded without resistance groups???” is completely ignoring that not all resistance groups are successful. Far fucking from it - they can be outright counterproductive. But I guess that’s only something that can be understood if the lionized Islamists du jour aren’t involved.
Counterculture as a lens of viewing politics is fucking cancer.
I love that Fatah are fascists now. Deeply unfucking serious. Doubly absurd considering the lengths you’re going to play apologist for Hamas.