What are you talking about the russians already lived in donbass which is why they voted to secede when the banderites started bombing them. Its not like settler colonialism at all.
But many do, and did historically, as it was part of Russia prior to the USSR.
But I have a genuine question: suppose that the majority of people living in Donbass genuinely wanted to break off and become part of Russia. Should they be allowed to, and if so, what steps should they have taken to make it happen, in the context that the government banned major opposition parties that were sympathetic towards Russia? What are you supposed to do, exactly, when the country is moving in a direction that you disagree with and shutting the opposition out of the political process, after seizing power through force?
Hey let’s switch examples and see if your logic stands up. The name Los Angeles is Spanish. Because Spanish speakers have been there longer than English speakers. If the Spanish speakers don’t like the president of the United States, does that mean it’s perfectly acceptable for the Mexican government to provide Spanish speaking protesters in LA with artillery systems and missile batteries? Or is that fucking weird?
Really telling on yourselves that yet another liberation movement reclaiming land that was stolen and an occupied and exploited to enrich empire is framed as the ultimate evil.
The name Los Angeles is Spanish. Because Spanish speakers have been there longer than English speakers. If the Spanish speakers don’t like the president of the United States, does that mean it’s perfectly acceptable for the Mexican government to provide Spanish speaking protesters in LA with artillery systems and missile batteries?
glances at the current government of the United States
glances at the current government of Mexico
I’m raising my little Casa Bonita style Mexican flag to signal that I approve.
There is a mild secessionist movement in CA. People of all ethnicities in the city can dissaprove of the oppression taking place. Pre-2022, ask in Donbas was just autonomy from nazis shelling it relatively indiscriminantly. CA even if it were to ask for military help from Mexico or China, wouldn’t have as first choice to join as one of their provinces. In both cases, independence is more about humanist self determination rather than ethnic loyalties even if the fascist oppression is centered on extermination of ethnic/liberal “sub humans”
Especially if the government said that those people were not allowed to participate in the political process, but given that the US political process is a joke and a sham, I don’t have any sort of belief in “upholding its territorial integrity” or anything like that.
Legitimacy derives from the consent of the governed, does it not?
See how I was able to immediately provide a very clear answer to your question? Now do mine.
It’s funny because the Russians in the donbass were being ethnically cleansed and you picked an example where that’s also happening and they’re equally justified in using violence to defend themselves.
It’s a complicated issue to solve, and I’m not the person to solve it but the Russian state’s approach has basically been in every single way wrong.
The Russian ethnic minority and it’s treatment is a domestic issue. It is not a suitable pretext for Russia to invade a country, bomb schools and hospitals, and force Ukrainians into either a smaller portion of their country or to live under an ethnostate that does not represent them. Putin has naked imperial ambitions not just in Ukraine but also in Georgia.
I’m now gonna block you, as I do everyone with pro-Russia views. Because anyone that can excuse Russia’s actions is not worthy of my attention.
The Russian minority wasn’t being genocided, and at most they could be ethnically cleansed considering Russia has it’s own nuclear-armed ethnostate that’s the largest in the world. Genocide is an international issue, what was not even an ethnic cleansing is a domestic issue.
Last when i checked Russia is winning the war, its economy is rising, its economical bloc is gaining traction while the US hegemony crumbles and US vassals are in complete shambles (a lot of which like the liberation of Sahel is directly possible only because NATO is currently being uncovered as paper tiger).
I would say it’s very distant from “fucking up”.
than a thousand pogroms in the Donbas could have done.
What a nice thing to say, pogrom enjoyer. Donbass is one of the genocides we will never know how bad they would get because they were stopped in time. And if it wasn’t, you probably wouldn’t even cry the crocodile tears, beacuse what’s a pogrom or hundred, right?
Last when i checked Russia is winning the war, its economy is rising, its economical bloc is gaining traction while the US hegemony crumbles and US vassals are in complete shambles
Might want to update your priors. Russia’s claiming a pyrrhic victory on the ground while losing irreplaceable assets and allies. US hegemony has been crumbling since the '00s, that’s nothing new. The vassals are, if anything, more militant and expansionist than ever (glances towards Israel)
Donbass is one of the genocides we will never know how bad they would get because they were stopped in time.
How can you count the dead in this war well over the million mark and say that with a straight face?
I’m really not sure what it is you think Russia lost access to exactly given that they’re part of BRICS which is a bigger economic bloc than the G7 at this point.
Might want to update your priors. Russia’s claiming a pyrrhic victory on the ground while losing irreplaceable assets and allies. US hegemony has been crumbling since the '00s, that’s nothing new. The vassals are, if anything, more militant and expansionist than ever (glances towards Israel)
What lack of historical materialism does to a mfer.
How can you count the dead in this war well over the million mark and say that with a straight face?
I also suspected that you can’t tell a difference between a genocide and a war where mainly members of genocidal organisations like AFU die, but you had to open your mouth and end the doubts. It always take a war to stop the nazis, always. But you people always shed tears over them unless they get to the level of III Reich or Israel (and often even then). I bet if USSR invaded nazi Germany in 1940 or if someone invaded Israel in october 2023 you would write such rot with a straight face too about them.
you can’t tell a difference between a genocide and a war
Talk about a lack of historical materialism. When the bulk of the casualties are unwilling conscripts and civilians, what do you think the difference is? Hell, the opening premise of the Russian invasion was to defend ethnic Russians. Much like with the US intervention in the former Yugoslavia and the de-Ba’athification of Iraq, this didn’t simply end in the allied ethnic groups being sheltered. It kicked off a wave of reprisal killings facilitated by the occupying army.
But you people always shed tears over them unless they get to the level of III Reich or Israel
Whether you’ve got a Sudanese Civil War or a Kashmiri occupation or a 40 year long Drug War, the first step to end the conflict is to stop the killing. Escalation never facilitates peace. What we saw out of Russia was an enormous cross-border escalation. And what we saw out of NATO was an enormous retaliation. Now its a bloodbath with no end in sight, because both parties have convinced themselves they’re Churchill and the other guy is Hitler.
if someone invaded Israel in october 2023 you would write such rot with a straight face too about them
Nobody was going to invade Iran in 2023 for the same reason nobody is going to invade North Korea after 2017. That game plan ended with the Six Day War. The only international solution to Israel in the modern day is containment and isolation, until the country can be de-radicalized through economic attrition and disarmed through treaty.
Same as the ANC’s allies used against the Boers in South Africa.
If you think the Israel-Iran War is going to somehow end in a more peaceful Israel or Iran, you need to put down Elon Musk’s ketamine and get back on that historical materialism you seem to care so much about.
All that says, is that you are this close to admitting that Ukraine has been an occupied territory for centuries. Except you are using that fact as a justification for continued occupation, and not a reason for Russia to stop their colonial objectives.
That’s not what it says. Your refusal to engage with evidence has you pretending you found a gotcha because you assume anything that disagrees with you has to be based on a flawed premise.
You’re literally ignoring the facts he presented (maidan was a coup, Donbas collectively decided to secede in a referendum). The people of the Donbas were resisting an attempted genocide as much as Gazans, you can listen to Poroshenko’s statements about bombing their hospitals, having their women and children hiding in basements, you can see the indiscriminate shelling of civilian centers. Both of them were propped up by your government (the lapdog of the only empire on earth rn), and by you personally, from your stupid refusal to acknowledge actual imperialism and pretending the enemies of the State Department must be the enemies of all of us everywhere.
What I did was state a couple objective historical facts and then ask a question, one that none of the downvoters and none of the people who have replied to me (including you) have anything resembling an answer to.
All y’all do when you get confronted by something you can’t answer is downvote, fall back on lazy talking points, block, and ignore it. This makes your criticism very hard to take seriously, you just parrot the news, with no investigation or critical thought.
Not all of modern Ukraine was part of Russia before the USSR, btw. When I said “it” I was referring specifically to the Donbass. Donbass was given to Ukraine, perhaps in the hope that the Russian population would influence the politics of the Ukrainian SSR in a way that was more cooperative with the rest of the Union. This is simply a fact, and astute readers will note that it’s mostly tangential to my actual question, except in that establishes that many Russians have lived there historically.
It’s Russians that live in the Donbass, not Poles.
There are a few Taiwanese in Taiwan apart from Chinese,
a few Australians in Australia apart from Anglos,
and a few Americans in the US apart from Anglos,
but there are no Ukrainians in the Ukraine.
In Ukraine in general, ~68% speak Ukranian natively, ~17% are native Ukranian/Russian bilingual, ~14% are native Russian speakers.
In the Donbas, ~27% Ukrainian native speakers, ~29% bilinguals, ~42% Russian native speakers.
Going by nationality:
~73% of Ukranian nationals natively speak Ukranian.
~18% of Ukranian nationals are bilingual natives.
~9% of Ukranian nationals natively speak Russian.
~4% of Russian nationals natively speak Ukranian.
~14% of Russian nationals are bilingual.
~81% of Russian nationals natively speak Russian.
All these numbers are from 2017.
…
I think it is safe to say that there are in fact many Ukranians in Ukraine, even many Ukranians in Donbas, at least prior to 2022… due to, you know, the ethnic cleansing undertaken by an occupying foreign national army.
My napkin math on those numbers works out to 53% Russian nationals vs 46% Ukranian nationals in Donbas in 2017.
Using a 53% Russian vs 46% Ukranian proportion to justify mass military force against the Ukranian population in Donbas is roughly the same logic that would conclude it is morally correct to invade Los Angeles and deport everyone who isn’t fluent in English, which has similar proportions between English and Spanish.
No, they are fascist Russians who speak a different language because they hated communism and decided to turn their Russian dialect into a full-blown language.
The Soviets decided to respect the language and cultural differences as long as they denounced their fascism.
Plus “The West” is too vague a term to take seriously.
If you’re from the US, you’re soon going to be familiar with such ‘fascist split-off “nation”’ like the ROC and Ukraine have been.
There won’t be no lie low enough not to continue for them. US fascists will claim that they’re the true USA and later claim that they’ve never been part of the USA in history. Their lies go on and on until kingdom come.
Calling another language a “dialect” is really lame if I’m being honest. The Ukrainian and Belarusian languages descended from Rutherian, which split from Russian hundreds of years ago. After centuries of Ukraine being occupied by one foreign power after another the history is all over the place but long story short Ukrainian is as much a dialect of Russian as English is a dialect of Latin.
And as for the Ukrainian identity not being real … if it wasn’t real then Russia wouldn’t be trying to erase it. Ukraine has only been part of Russia for 80 out of the last 800 years. I should not bother arguing with you, I don’t know why I even bother. I’m gonna block you like I do every tankie.
Lol, the differences between Ukrainian and Russian began in the 13th century, when old Ukrainian shifted /g/ to /ɣ/ and then to modern day /ɦ/.
By that logic, Germany should swallow the Netherlands because clearly Dutch and German have the same origins and are just dialects. Hell, if you go back to the 11th century, i.e. the Kievan Rus, a bunch of now distinct languages were much closer to each other.
Ukrainian has a lot more German, Polish and Tartar loanwords than Russian. Southwestern Dialects of Ukrainian are closer to Polish than to Russian. Ukrainian has an 38% difference in Vocabulary to Russian, which is roughly the difference between Italian and Spanish.
Ukrainian also preserved it’s vocative case, which has disappeared from Russian. It possesses 3 different future tenses, opposed to 2 in Russian. These are two different languages
Soviet promotion of the Ukrainian language was not an “appeasement of fascist russians”, it was a reversal of Tsarist oppression. Just up until the 1930s, when the USSR again made a 180 turn on their language policies throughout its territory.
That doesn’t explain why Russians have been occupying land in Ukraine for all that time. When an imperialist state conquers territory, it occupies the land in order to legitimize its claim it.
They are there, because Ukraine has been a vassal state to Russia, with its people treated as second-class citizens, for centuries. During that time, they have oscillated back and forth in status from rebellion to re-conquered, many times. This is just the latest wave of Russian oppression intended to crush dissent and re-establish Russian dominance over Ukraine through the russification of Ukrainian culture, language and identity. Wash, rinse, repeat.
What are you talking about the russians already lived in donbass which is why they voted to secede when the banderites started bombing them. Its not like settler colonialism at all.
It wasn’t just Russians that lived in Donbass.
But many do, and did historically, as it was part of Russia prior to the USSR.
But I have a genuine question: suppose that the majority of people living in Donbass genuinely wanted to break off and become part of Russia. Should they be allowed to, and if so, what steps should they have taken to make it happen, in the context that the government banned major opposition parties that were sympathetic towards Russia? What are you supposed to do, exactly, when the country is moving in a direction that you disagree with and shutting the opposition out of the political process, after seizing power through force?
A downvote is not an answer, btw.
Hey let’s switch examples and see if your logic stands up. The name Los Angeles is Spanish. Because Spanish speakers have been there longer than English speakers. If the Spanish speakers don’t like the president of the United States, does that mean it’s perfectly acceptable for the Mexican government to provide Spanish speaking protesters in LA with artillery systems and missile batteries? Or is that fucking weird?
A downvote is not an answer btw.
Bruh
Really telling on yourselves that yet another liberation movement reclaiming land that was stolen and an occupied and exploited to enrich empire is framed as the ultimate evil.
Fucking gringos.
glances at the current government of the United States
glances at the current government of Mexico
I’m raising my little Casa Bonita style Mexican flag to signal that I approve.
Yes, and no it is not weird
There is a mild secessionist movement in CA. People of all ethnicities in the city can dissaprove of the oppression taking place. Pre-2022, ask in Donbas was just autonomy from nazis shelling it relatively indiscriminantly. CA even if it were to ask for military help from Mexico or China, wouldn’t have as first choice to join as one of their provinces. In both cases, independence is more about humanist self determination rather than ethnic loyalties even if the fascist oppression is centered on extermination of ethnic/liberal “sub humans”
Who is upvoting this racist lib fantasy? smh.
Everyone should rise up against this disgusting empire regardless of their “language”.
Yes. I wish they would.
Especially if the government said that those people were not allowed to participate in the political process, but given that the US political process is a joke and a sham, I don’t have any sort of belief in “upholding its territorial integrity” or anything like that.
Legitimacy derives from the consent of the governed, does it not?
See how I was able to immediately provide a very clear answer to your question? Now do mine.
It’s funny because the Russians in the donbass were being ethnically cleansed and you picked an example where that’s also happening and they’re equally justified in using violence to defend themselves.
It’s a complicated issue to solve, and I’m not the person to solve it but the Russian state’s approach has basically been in every single way wrong.
The Russian ethnic minority and it’s treatment is a domestic issue. It is not a suitable pretext for Russia to invade a country, bomb schools and hospitals, and force Ukrainians into either a smaller portion of their country or to live under an ethnostate that does not represent them. Putin has naked imperial ambitions not just in Ukraine but also in Georgia.
I’m now gonna block you, as I do everyone with pro-Russia views. Because anyone that can excuse Russia’s actions is not worthy of my attention.
Hey that’s exactly what Candice Owens said about how Hitler treated the jews
The Russian minority wasn’t being genocided, and at most they could be ethnically cleansed considering Russia has it’s own nuclear-armed ethnostate that’s the largest in the world. Genocide is an international issue, what was not even an ethnic cleansing is a domestic issue.
God you’re fucking shameless. Piece of shit.
Russia is the world’s largest ethnostate because you decided the word sounds bad and if it’s bad people you can just vamp?
But ‘meh’ ethnic cleansing? Leave it to the people doing it?
Eat a fucking knife, nazi.
You absolute baby
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Last when i checked Russia is winning the war, its economy is rising, its economical bloc is gaining traction while the US hegemony crumbles and US vassals are in complete shambles (a lot of which like the liberation of Sahel is directly possible only because NATO is currently being uncovered as paper tiger).
I would say it’s very distant from “fucking up”.
What a nice thing to say, pogrom enjoyer. Donbass is one of the genocides we will never know how bad they would get because they were stopped in time. And if it wasn’t, you probably wouldn’t even cry the crocodile tears, beacuse what’s a pogrom or hundred, right?
Might want to update your priors. Russia’s claiming a pyrrhic victory on the ground while losing irreplaceable assets and allies. US hegemony has been crumbling since the '00s, that’s nothing new. The vassals are, if anything, more militant and expansionist than ever (glances towards Israel)
How can you count the dead in this war well over the million mark and say that with a straight face?
The World Bank just reclassified Russia as a high income country https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/opendata/world-bank-country-classifications-by-income-level-for-2024-2025
Meanwhile, the IMF forecasts that Russian economy is set to grow faster than all the western economies https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/17/russia-forecast-to-grow-faster-than-advanced-economies-in-2024-imf.html
I’m really not sure what it is you think Russia lost access to exactly given that they’re part of BRICS which is a bigger economic bloc than the G7 at this point.
What lack of historical materialism does to a mfer.
I also suspected that you can’t tell a difference between a genocide and a war where mainly members of genocidal organisations like AFU die, but you had to open your mouth and end the doubts. It always take a war to stop the nazis, always. But you people always shed tears over them unless they get to the level of III Reich or Israel (and often even then). I bet if USSR invaded nazi Germany in 1940 or if someone invaded Israel in october 2023 you would write such rot with a straight face too about them.
Talk about a lack of historical materialism. When the bulk of the casualties are unwilling conscripts and civilians, what do you think the difference is? Hell, the opening premise of the Russian invasion was to defend ethnic Russians. Much like with the US intervention in the former Yugoslavia and the de-Ba’athification of Iraq, this didn’t simply end in the allied ethnic groups being sheltered. It kicked off a wave of reprisal killings facilitated by the occupying army.
Whether you’ve got a Sudanese Civil War or a Kashmiri occupation or a 40 year long Drug War, the first step to end the conflict is to stop the killing. Escalation never facilitates peace. What we saw out of Russia was an enormous cross-border escalation. And what we saw out of NATO was an enormous retaliation. Now its a bloodbath with no end in sight, because both parties have convinced themselves they’re Churchill and the other guy is Hitler.
Nobody was going to invade Iran in 2023 for the same reason nobody is going to invade North Korea after 2017. That game plan ended with the Six Day War. The only international solution to Israel in the modern day is containment and isolation, until the country can be de-radicalized through economic attrition and disarmed through treaty.
Same as the ANC’s allies used against the Boers in South Africa.
If you think the Israel-Iran War is going to somehow end in a more peaceful Israel or Iran, you need to put down Elon Musk’s ketamine and get back on that historical materialism you seem to care so much about.
All that says, is that you are this close to admitting that Ukraine has been an occupied territory for centuries. Except you are using that fact as a justification for continued occupation, and not a reason for Russia to stop their colonial objectives.
That’s not what it says. Your refusal to engage with evidence has you pretending you found a gotcha because you assume anything that disagrees with you has to be based on a flawed premise.
You’re literally ignoring the facts he presented (maidan was a coup, Donbas collectively decided to secede in a referendum). The people of the Donbas were resisting an attempted genocide as much as Gazans, you can listen to Poroshenko’s statements about bombing their hospitals, having their women and children hiding in basements, you can see the indiscriminate shelling of civilian centers. Both of them were propped up by your government (the lapdog of the only empire on earth rn), and by you personally, from your stupid refusal to acknowledge actual imperialism and pretending the enemies of the State Department must be the enemies of all of us everywhere.
I didn’t say any of that shit.
What I did was state a couple objective historical facts and then ask a question, one that none of the downvoters and none of the people who have replied to me (including you) have anything resembling an answer to.
All y’all do when you get confronted by something you can’t answer is downvote, fall back on lazy talking points, block, and ignore it. This makes your criticism very hard to take seriously, you just parrot the news, with no investigation or critical thought.
Not all of modern Ukraine was part of Russia before the USSR, btw. When I said “it” I was referring specifically to the Donbass. Donbass was given to Ukraine, perhaps in the hope that the Russian population would influence the politics of the Ukrainian SSR in a way that was more cooperative with the rest of the Union. This is simply a fact, and astute readers will note that it’s mostly tangential to my actual question, except in that establishes that many Russians have lived there historically.
It’s Russians that live in the Donbass, not Poles.
There are a few Taiwanese in Taiwan apart from Chinese,
a few Australians in Australia apart from Anglos,
and a few Americans in the US apart from Anglos,
but there are no Ukrainians in the Ukraine.
In Ukraine in general, ~68% speak Ukranian natively, ~17% are native Ukranian/Russian bilingual, ~14% are native Russian speakers.
In the Donbas, ~27% Ukrainian native speakers, ~29% bilinguals, ~42% Russian native speakers.
Going by nationality:
~73% of Ukranian nationals natively speak Ukranian.
~18% of Ukranian nationals are bilingual natives.
~9% of Ukranian nationals natively speak Russian.
~4% of Russian nationals natively speak Ukranian.
~14% of Russian nationals are bilingual.
~81% of Russian nationals natively speak Russian.
All these numbers are from 2017.
…
I think it is safe to say that there are in fact many Ukranians in Ukraine, even many Ukranians in Donbas, at least prior to 2022… due to, you know, the ethnic cleansing undertaken by an occupying foreign national army.
My napkin math on those numbers works out to 53% Russian nationals vs 46% Ukranian nationals in Donbas in 2017.
Using a 53% Russian vs 46% Ukranian proportion to justify mass military force against the Ukranian population in Donbas is roughly the same logic that would conclude it is morally correct to invade Los Angeles and deport everyone who isn’t fluent in English, which has similar proportions between English and Spanish.
Ah yes, they are just “confused Russians” who speak a different language because of the ebul West.
In the Donbas? Half of them speak Russian natively, you dunce. About another fifth are natively bilingual.
Since you started it: are you blind?
“There are Ukrainians in Ukraine”
They weren’t talking about the Donbas specifically, they were talking about the entire Ukraine.
No, they are fascist Russians who speak a different language because they hated communism and decided to turn their Russian dialect into a full-blown language.
The Soviets decided to respect the language and cultural differences as long as they denounced their fascism.
Plus “The West” is too vague a term to take seriously.
If you’re from the US, you’re soon going to be familiar with such ‘fascist split-off “nation”’ like the ROC and Ukraine have been.
There won’t be no lie low enough not to continue for them. US fascists will claim that they’re the true USA and later claim that they’ve never been part of the USA in history. Their lies go on and on until kingdom come.
Yeah, the famous communist hating “Russians” deciding to write in Ukrainian in the 1840s.
Alexander II. banned any publications in Ukrainian. But yeah, totally just fascist Russians lol.
God I’m so fucking tired of idiot liberals who refuse to read history and think their ignorant fucking smarm is the same as knowledge
You are now a liberal if you don’t think every Ukrainian is a fascist.
Literally meaningless when you subtract the dripping attitude. Just a fucking moron making themselves feel smart alone in the shower.
Dialects have names. Go back further and you’ll notice the language starts out in Kiev, same as Russian, in the same era as the same language.
Again, if you live in the US, you’ll have this historical revisionism fun of fascism too soon.
Calling another language a “dialect” is really lame if I’m being honest. The Ukrainian and Belarusian languages descended from Rutherian, which split from Russian hundreds of years ago. After centuries of Ukraine being occupied by one foreign power after another the history is all over the place but long story short Ukrainian is as much a dialect of Russian as English is a dialect of Latin.
And as for the Ukrainian identity not being real … if it wasn’t real then Russia wouldn’t be trying to erase it. Ukraine has only been part of Russia for 80 out of the last 800 years. I should not bother arguing with you, I don’t know why I even bother. I’m gonna block you like I do every tankie.
Lol, the differences between Ukrainian and Russian began in the 13th century, when old Ukrainian shifted /g/ to /ɣ/ and then to modern day /ɦ/. By that logic, Germany should swallow the Netherlands because clearly Dutch and German have the same origins and are just dialects. Hell, if you go back to the 11th century, i.e. the Kievan Rus, a bunch of now distinct languages were much closer to each other.
Ukrainian has a lot more German, Polish and Tartar loanwords than Russian. Southwestern Dialects of Ukrainian are closer to Polish than to Russian. Ukrainian has an 38% difference in Vocabulary to Russian, which is roughly the difference between Italian and Spanish. Ukrainian also preserved it’s vocative case, which has disappeared from Russian. It possesses 3 different future tenses, opposed to 2 in Russian. These are two different languages
Soviet promotion of the Ukrainian language was not an “appeasement of fascist russians”, it was a reversal of Tsarist oppression. Just up until the 1930s, when the USSR again made a 180 turn on their language policies throughout its territory.
Removed by mod
That doesn’t explain why Russians have been occupying land in Ukraine for all that time. When an imperialist state conquers territory, it occupies the land in order to legitimize its claim it.
They are there, because Ukraine has been a vassal state to Russia, with its people treated as second-class citizens, for centuries. During that time, they have oscillated back and forth in status from rebellion to re-conquered, many times. This is just the latest wave of Russian oppression intended to crush dissent and re-establish Russian dominance over Ukraine through the russification of Ukrainian culture, language and identity. Wash, rinse, repeat.