The thought came to mind after reading a recent post about Baldurs Gate 3 here but it reminded me of the Japense only PSX game Mizzurna Falls where if you don’t perform a certain action early in the game you are prevented from getting a true ending. While this might not be a traditional soft lock because you can still progress to a point it made me wonder none the less.
I understand BG3 might be a hard lock because the game abruptly comes to a close I am not going to get into the semantics. The only other soft locks I can think of are with Pokemon.
Shout out to the fan translation of Mizzurna Falls. An article on the ROMHacking.net website can be found here.
Tes 3: Morrowind, every NPCs can be killed and of course if you kill some of them before they got usefull to progress the main quest you are locked.
At their death there is a notification message like “you fucked up, you can reload or continue to play in this world forever doomed”. BUT, in my first playthrough some broken mod I installed was hiding this message …
Also, in the same game you could lose quest item and be unable to finish the main quest. But that kind of require you to be stupid on purpose, because it’s obvious what item are important.
EDIT: found the in game message: " With this character’s death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created."
I think that’s the best way to handle it. Let me kill whoever I want as long as I know the consequences.
Good news. You can still beat the game if the “thread of prophecy is severed”, but it is fairly challenging and generally requires stumble-luck or at LEAST knowledge of how to normally beat the game. It helps to know the identity of another character you have to kill in cold blood to get “almost back on track”. And then the location that serves no real purpose except to get back on track from that situation.
Yes indeed, I know what you are talking about. But I would not really consider that the “normal” ending as described by OP. Even if the ending scene itself is exactly the same, it’s a very different path and clearly a much harder one.
Well… Yes. Not saying it doesn’t fit the topic. Just a really cool way they handled it all.
Sure ! And I discovered that only years later by reading a wiki page. But actually it make sense that it’s also feasible this way.
What kind of monster uses mods on a first playthru
It was some small QoL changes in the UI and menus, recommended by my friend who recommended me the game. I don’t remember exactly the changes but there was nothing big added or changed in the gameplay
Me, more and more these days. Especially if the game has been out for a while.
If the game is made by Bethesda then it’s warranted. They’ve never been capable of making an acceptable ui it seems
First time I played I had to load a save back in Seyda Neen because I killed some poor half naked dude in his shack in Balmora. Fuckin Caius Cosades.
Isn’t it like the first quest you get? 🫠
Hey man, Morrowind quests don’t hold your hand! It’s not like there’s a minimap and some big ass marker over his head saying “don’t kill and rob this half naked dude who looks like a skooma addict in his tiny studio apartment because he’s secretly the spy master for the main faction in the game”! I was young! I chose violence!
I would even check whether he even speaks to you first 🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠
😰 You killed Daddy Caius
Marvelous morrowind I should’ve put some “morrowind joke” but I don’t remember any
I managed to soft lock the new Pokemon Snap game in the tutorial where they had you take a picture of a Butterfree (I think is the right Pokemon). Somehow when I took a picture, it flapped its wings and turned enough that it was flat in the picture and couldn’t be selected when you were at the next phase of the tutorial selecting the shot to show the Professor Oak stand in. You couldn’t go back to take another picture, so I was effectively unable to continue the game from there. I was pretty proud of my bad picture taking skills.
Damn, Professor Oak fired your ass.
“No, you can’t go back, this is fucking awful, give me that camera back.”
Lol I guess it never “snapped” out of it?
Sierra adventure games, like King’s Quest and Space Quest, were notorious for this kind of thing. Like there could be an item you have 1 chance to get, and you didn’t know, so you don’t get it and then several hours later when you’re at the end of the game, you realize you need that thing to solve the puzzle and actually move on. But you can’t. Because you didn’t get it when you had the chance and you can not go back.
I like the Unstable Ordinance from Space Quest IV that you can pick up near the start of the game. It’s entirely useless, you can’t ditch it, and if you have in your inventory near the end of the game, it blows up and kills you. Everytime. You have to restart nearly the whole game and resist the adventure game urge to grab everything that isn’t nailed down.
Those games didn’t give a fuck about your feelings. I remember some of those point and clicks had zero chill. I played one where all I wanted to do was cross the street. My character was immediately run over by a car and I had to start over. The typing games could be even worse. Oh sorry this bees nest is attacking you, here’s hoping you grabbed the bug spray under the carpet on the 3rd floor and are quick enough on your feet to type out the exact sequence of words necessary to get your character to use it. ‘Use bug spray’ sorry can you please be more specific. Oh never mind your character is dead, no saves, heres the worst 8 bit death audio anyone has ever created.
Ah, fond memories of playing Hugo’s House of Horrors and having to frantically type while a dog bites your face off.
That’s the exact game that came to mind. At least a few years ago there was a website where you could play all those games , I don’t know if it’s still up.
I thought it blew up when you went into the sewers which isn’t long after you pick it up. But still, it’s a trap you don’t realize is a problem right away and really sucked :)
In the same vein: the games in the Hugo trilogy had several fail states… each. Trying to cross a bridge? Oop, you’ve bumped against the wonky hitbox and dropped the matches you need near the river. They’re wet now and completely unusable.
Maniac Mansion was the first that came to mind for me. You select a party from a number of characters at the beginning, but unless you pick the exact right party, you’ll never be able to finish the game.
Whoa there, all of the parties have a viable path to complete Maniac Mansion. It’s just much easier if you take a musician.
I’m going to be honest, I find things that can permanently mess up your save (in the sense that you’ll get a lesser experience or not reach the ending) is extremely bad game design. It’s something I’d expect out of a 2 hour arcade game, not a modern release.
There are a lot of horror games in the PS1 that are “if you didn’t do this extremely specific thing, in the right order, with the right coloured t-shirt, on a Tuesday, without any hints whatsoever… Too bad! When you reach the end of the game in another 60 hours of gameplay we will tell you you’ve failed”
Baldur’s Gate might be a great game, but sometimes it’s “dice rolls makes things spicy and each run its own thing!” mechanic gets unbalanced and by a little bad luck you can have a significantly degraded experience, sometimes without even knowing it.
This is bad game design, even if ultimately the game can be good in the end.
I’d like to expand on this and say, as a 37 year old parent with a house that barely has time to play a game ONCE it’s complete and utter bullshit. I’m doing good just to finish a game, there is pretty much zero chance I’m going to play it again.
I’ll shamelessly say I do reference walkthroughs if I expect there to be choices the impact the game in big ways.
I’m impressed your house has time to play games at all.
You should give your house regular lunch breaks, it’s unethical to make it be a house all day.
I get what you mean occasionally games like that can feel like they force the replayability aspect rather than encourage it.
Kind of the flip of the question but far cry 5 was particularly infuriating when it came to bullshit plot devices that override the players choices/skills. The boss fights were rigged with fixed outcomes regardless of what you hit the boss with. The fact that you could hit an unarmored human in the head with a rpg and see the explosion but the game was just like “yeah but the story says he’s alive so he’s alive. Also he is about to wreck your shit for… reasons…” drove me crazy…
This kind of stuff was what turned me off the Armored Core “Spiritual Successor” game Daemon X Machina. So many fights involved scripted foes where it wasn’t obvious they were scripted as undefeatable until I’d burned out half my ammunition.
Exactly this, Far Cry 5 did “ludonarrative dissonance” in a big way. Also, fake open world. 3 and 4 just had a bunch of annoyingly stupid story developments: you going into some Obviously Bad Idea or Diabolus-ex-machina shit - which is still really grating if you’re otherwise playing methodically and cautiously, but they happened during missions and didn’t intrude on the rest of the game. 5’s stupid unwinnable kidnapping parties and stupid mandatory “drug trips” sure did, though.
Modding that shit away, it’s still a reasonable game, but ye gods the story was terribly executed.
That is part of why I liked New Vegas so much, they were just like “yeah you can kill Caesar in camp, go ahead, the story is now differerent and you don’t get these quests but oh well, your choice”
I wish I disagreed with you, the only thing I can push back on is saying the open world is fake.
It’s a damn shame, because far cry 5 has by far my favorite setting of the series. I’d love for someone to take a second stab of that kind of setting.
The open world itself is not fake, but IMO the game is “No True Open World Game” as long as it keeps hijacking you all the time. The world itself is pretty deec. If you’re on PC you can try the Resistance mod, it lets you customize the game a lot including how intrusive the main quest is.
Duly noted, I’ll check that out the next time I get the itch to play. I disliked that about the game. It’s actually my main gripe. I didn’t like being careful of not blowing up too much stuff so that I didn’t hit the “main quest threshold” or whatever.
I just want to enjoy the outdoors and kill peggies.
Are there any weapon mods? I found the variety lacking, beyond the broken dlc guns.
Tons. I think some are included in Resistance, or at least you can tweak certain things to be less airsoft-y. Haven’t played in a while. Nexus has a bunch of stuff anyway.
I kinda liked the airsoft feel, though. Makes me feel like Rambo. I guess I know what I’m doing once I’m done with starfield.
Assuming hades 2 doesn’t come out before then lol
I was under the impression that ludonarrative dissonance was when you purposely try to subvert the way the game “wants” to be played, rather than you trying to do what the game wants and the game failing to interpret your actions in a realistic or satisfying way. Like the people who try to be law-abiding pacifists in GTA V or people using armor stands to turn Minecraft into multiplayer chess.
It’s when there’s a disconnect between the storytelling and the gameplay. Usual example is Uncharted or the last Tomb Raider reboot: the main character wrings their hands over the possibility of having to kill a person, but the gameplay is you mowing down an army.
Or every action movie ever
That’s kind of normal, isn’t it? There are often immortal characters, that simply can’t be killed or lost or whatever. Like the dog companion in fallout 4.
It’s not uncommon, but can be very grating depending on the circumstances. Dogmeat and the other companions are immortal because Rule of Fun - losing them would suck, which is why it’s limited to the more masochistic (not that there’s anything wrong with that) difficulty settings. Far Cry games generally try to seem realistic apart from some trademark trippiness, so when you blast someone with a rocket and they just ignore it, it’s a bit jarring.
In-universe I think the idea is that you’re tripping balls, it’s a go-to excuse for “why is this boss fight behaving weird” in the Far Cry series.
Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. If you don’t give the sandwich to the small dog you can’t finish the game.
I got bit by this one. Went over to a friend’s house to spend the day playing HHGTTG. Several hours later we discovered we couldn’t win the game because I had neglected to feed the dog 15 minutes in while he was up getting a drink or something.
It really shows that Douglas Adams was an author and not a game designer with how easy it is to soft-lock that game if you visit rooms in the wrong order or spend too long or short a time exploring one. Most of the possible mistakes become reasonably apparent reasonably quickly, but not always.
It’s not quite what you’re getting at, but in Bubble Bobble Revolution you can’t pass level 30 because the boss doesn’t spawn. It’s a soft lock but there’s nothing you can do to avoid it, and the game is on the DS so there’s no updates to fix it :D
Fallout 1. During the term to the Master there is a 200 second countdown.
If you fooled up the speech check or want to do it differently and reload a save that was made after the countdown started then the countdown drops to 50 seconds. Making the fight impossible to do in time.
I think you just helped me solve why I never finished it when I was 8 lol.
I was at the ending but was never able to finish it before the countdown ended. Now I need to install the game again!
In every game in Suikoden series, you’d have to recruit 108 characters in total to get the true ending.
Around half of these are part of the story, so you’d get them whatever you do, but the rest you’d have to do some sidequest to get them, a lot of them are missable.
Also, you can get some characters killed, dooming you from ever getting that true ending.
Suikoden 1 and 2 in particular have very precise soft-locks.
In Suikoden 1, Pahn has to win a battle that seems to be a scripted loss.
Suikoden 2 (my favorite RPG of all time) is actually beyond brutal. There’s a 3-5 second timed input that doesn’t even make much sense and if you get it wrong, nothing predictable changes except you don’t get the 108th star (just one person having a private word with the strategist that only makes sense later)
And I thought 4 & 5 was brutal…
I dunno which of the two is worse. I fell for the Pahn one in S1, but managed to guess right in S2 by sheer luck (it’s between a default “Watch Out!” and “Nanami!”. You have to pick “Nanami!” or you lose out on the good ending. And you automatically say “Watch Out!” if you don’t pick fast)
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Mid-battle saves were a separate temporary file. Once you loaded the file, it deleted itself. Basically an extented pause since it was a mobile game. Your main save would have been unharmed, though saves were manual so who knows how far back you were. Some battles were forced whenever you entered the tile, so you could easily be surprised an unprepared. Especially that babus fight with marche alone. Was always tough back in the day.
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I loved that game but there’s no way in hell I’d ever have the patience to 100% it, good lord.
I went through that exact problem, didn’t have space to stuff a single item from a mission I thought would be repeatable and so I got stuck in 99% completion - the only solution was to trade it from another cart and that was not gonna happen
FF12 had some bullshit chest near the beginning of the game… If you opened it you lost the ability to 100% the game and get the Zodiac spear ( reportedly some ability to get one in a very tedious grunts fashion but it’s been ages)
Basically the straw that broke the camel’s back for me with ff… The games story and combat was already a let down after they dropped the turn based combat like all of them ff1-ff10
But yeah generally I dislike many soft lock mechanics or illogical things that punish you for just playing the game… Oftentimes these were put in games just to sell strategy guides.
I haven’t played 2 or 3, but at the very least FF4 isn’t turn based. Its pseudo-realtime.
I remember ff4 being turn based or at least the same menu maybe active time where if your too slow npcs will act but it’s been awhile
King’s Quest was the king of soft locks.
Any of the Sierra “X Quest” games. Space Quest, Police Quest… so many soft locks. I remember Police Quest had a soft lock that would trigger on the first day but wouldn’t become apparent until day 3 or 4.
Fuck Sierra games, it’s why I gave up on them and played only Lucasarts point-and-click adventure games.
Same although I didnt get into the lucasarts games until the 2000s. I played every Sierra game and love/hated them all not realizing there was a better way to live.
Friends don’t let friends play Sierra games without walkthroughs
Yeah? How so? While I’ve numerous clips of that game I don’t think I’ve seen what you are referring to
There’s like 7 king’s quests.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UnintentionallyUnwinnable/Sierra this is but a small sample of the pain that was old school Sierra
Oh the joys of King’s Quest V. The most notorius soft lock is one that happens so fast that you would never suspect it to be a soft lock. Early in the game, the player will come across a scene where a cat is chasing a mouse. Now, this should make the player go “OH NO, THE POOR MOUSE!” and help the mouse. However, the scene is tied to your CPU speed so you have a total of 2-4 seconds to go into your inventory, select the item to yeet at the cat, and save the mouse. Many players will blink and just go, “Alright well that happened.” So, the player goes on and finally gets to a point in the game where Graham gets knocked out and tied up in a basement. Yeah your game just ends here if you didn’t save the mouse because the mouse chews through the ropes. THERE IS NO INDICATOR, AT ALL, THAT THE MOUSE IS THE KEY TO SOLVING THE PUZZLE. NONE. And people wonder why LucasArts titles are more fondly beloved over the earlier Sierra titles.
King’s Quest VI, if you wait a few minutes on the strting beach, there’s a 5-pixel momentary glint that turns out to be a coin. If you leave the beach beforehand, it’s gone forever and the game is in an unwinnable state.
That game was horseshit and I really want to give it another go
I always forget about the coin because I learned my lesson from all the bullshit one screen items from Space Quest IV as well. Also, I’d like to mention the game that was programmed to never let you get the true ending due to legal issues. I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream could never be truly beaten for the best ending in the French and German releases. Mainly due to the character Nimdok’s storyline being entirely centered around Nazis and the surgical “experiments” that happened. I’m not here to dwell on that, but what I am here to dwell on is that when the game was released, French and German players could not get the true ending due to CyberDreams forgetting to check off the trigger for Nimdok succeeding in his game. So, the game was always in its fail state up until 2013 or so when it was finally released on Steam and GOG. The game was in an unwinnable state for those releases for almost 20 years. No revised version with a fix was ever issued until the worldwide release.
Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl. If you were too lazy to trek back to Cordon after deactivating the miracle machine (I think), you couldn’t get the true ending without abusing glitches and bugs.
I’m pretty sure I soft locked my New Vegas save a good few years ago, or at least locked myself out of the ending I wanted. I was going for the Yes-Man ending, but I wanted to let House upgrade the robots first. I let him do it and then killed him to get the platinum chip back, but turns out he didn’t have it on him. Without any way to give the chip to Yes-Man, I was SoL. I think you can still complete the game with a couple other factions, but I know for sure that I already pissed The Legion off so I don’t know how many options are left. Maybe I’ll dig up that save somehow and try again.
Also, In the original Thief games (Thief: The Dark Project, Thief: Gold, and Thief 2), there was a brief fadeout period between dying and getting kicked to the game over screen. This death state didn’t lock the controls, so you could still move around, interact with objects, and, critically, quicksave. If you happened to quicksave at the moment of your death, there was nothing you could do to get out of dying. There was only one quicksave slot and no autosaves, so if you weren’t manually saving every now and then, you had to start the entire game over. Learned to make occasional checkpoint saves the hard way.
The death mechanic did lead to at least one hilarious fan mission where you had to get through a door and complete the mission after falling to your death.
Link to the fan mission? I’ve been getting my annual itch to go back to The City
Yes Man is the failsafe ending, so you should always be able to do it I’m pretty sure. Killing Yes Man should work like killing Victor and he just jumps to a new body if I remember correctly.
