It’s my understanding that Ukraine’s parliament voted to remove President Yanukovych in 2014. Does this count as an “overthrow”? If the US Congress were to vote to remove Trump from power, which I believe is legally possible in the US, would that be an “overthrow”?
Lol after a bunch of armed men stormed the capital? Yes, it does, actually. A better comparison would be if Jan 6’ers succeeded, prevented Biden from coming in and forced Congress to authorize their actions.
Your sources curiously omit the fact that Ukraine banned numerous opposition parties. I don’t see either side as being genuinely democratic, but I also consider that somewhat beside the point. The real point is that neither government operates in the people’s interest.
Every year, another Ukraine slips away from the US’s sphere of influence because there’s only ever money available for war. And the reason for that is because the military-industrial complex is a mechanism for funnelling public funds into private hands, where it can eventually end up in the hands of the people making the decision. What I want is to put a stop to that and spend money on schools and hospitals and infrastructure and that sort of thing. I’m not particularly picky on where or how or why, if they want to develop in foreign countries to uphold geopolitical influence, fine, if they want to develop domestically to win support, cool.
There are countless ongoing crises that are far more important than whatever’s happening in Ukraine, but everything gets ignored unless they can be addressed by dropping bombs on people. And I’ve had enough of it, I have zero patience for it, and above all, I don’t trust my government enough to follow their lead anywhere.
There’s clearly enough evidence to say that Ukraine is at best a “flawed” democracy, and that’s by the standards of bourgeois systems. But even if it wasn’t, even if they were fully in the right and it was as black-and-white as the media pretends it is - it still wouldn’t really matter to me. I have bigger fish to fry at home, get these rulers out, get them out for good, and maybe then I can think of following whoever got them out over to dealing with Ukraine. Until then, the specifics don’t really matter.
Sure, I think Ukraine is a flawed democracy. More democratic than Russia in my estimation, but that isn’t a high bar to clear. I hope Ukrainians can vote in the near future on whether to continue the war. Or alternatively the Ukrainian government should hopefully respect the results of reliable polling.
If you think your domestic priorities are more important than foreign issues, that’s fair enough. When you claim Yanukovych’s removal from power counts as an “overthrow”, I’m not sure I agree with that, because Ukraine’s parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from power. But anyway, maybe there is not much point in talking about where you and I disagree, because that could go on forever. I think we agree on some points, like the fact that Ukrainians are unfortunately suffering, and the fact that corporations (including defence companies) are too greedy, at the expense of hospitals and such like.
When you claim Yanukovych’s removal from power counts as an “overthrow”, I’m not sure I agree with that, because Ukraine’s parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from power.
Well then, when you claim that Russia’s involvement counts as an “invasion,” I’m not sure I agree because the disputed territories held votes to break away, invite Russia to defend their sovereignty, and to become part of Russia. Of course, those votes were held after a bunch of armed men took control of their local governments, but then, the Ukrainian parliament only voted to oust Yanukovych after a bunch of armed men took control of the parliament building. In my mind, neither is particularly reliable, but if you ask me to treat one as reliable, then it’s only fair that I treat the other the same way. In that view, either Ukraine’s current government is the result of a Western-backed coup, or Russia’s involvement is a response to a request for aid from the break away regions, and it’s primarily a civil war. If either of those things are true, then it’s enough for me to wash my hands of the situation.
But anyway, maybe there is not much point in talking about where you and I disagree, because that could go on forever. I think we agree on some points
Lol after a bunch of armed men stormed the capital? Yes, it does, actually. A better comparison would be if Jan 6’ers succeeded, prevented Biden from coming in and forced Congress to authorize their actions.
Your sources curiously omit the fact that Ukraine banned numerous opposition parties. I don’t see either side as being genuinely democratic, but I also consider that somewhat beside the point. The real point is that neither government operates in the people’s interest.
Every year, another Ukraine slips away from the US’s sphere of influence because there’s only ever money available for war. And the reason for that is because the military-industrial complex is a mechanism for funnelling public funds into private hands, where it can eventually end up in the hands of the people making the decision. What I want is to put a stop to that and spend money on schools and hospitals and infrastructure and that sort of thing. I’m not particularly picky on where or how or why, if they want to develop in foreign countries to uphold geopolitical influence, fine, if they want to develop domestically to win support, cool.
There are countless ongoing crises that are far more important than whatever’s happening in Ukraine, but everything gets ignored unless they can be addressed by dropping bombs on people. And I’ve had enough of it, I have zero patience for it, and above all, I don’t trust my government enough to follow their lead anywhere.
There’s clearly enough evidence to say that Ukraine is at best a “flawed” democracy, and that’s by the standards of bourgeois systems. But even if it wasn’t, even if they were fully in the right and it was as black-and-white as the media pretends it is - it still wouldn’t really matter to me. I have bigger fish to fry at home, get these rulers out, get them out for good, and maybe then I can think of following whoever got them out over to dealing with Ukraine. Until then, the specifics don’t really matter.
Sure, I think Ukraine is a flawed democracy. More democratic than Russia in my estimation, but that isn’t a high bar to clear. I hope Ukrainians can vote in the near future on whether to continue the war. Or alternatively the Ukrainian government should hopefully respect the results of reliable polling.
If you think your domestic priorities are more important than foreign issues, that’s fair enough. When you claim Yanukovych’s removal from power counts as an “overthrow”, I’m not sure I agree with that, because Ukraine’s parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from power. But anyway, maybe there is not much point in talking about where you and I disagree, because that could go on forever. I think we agree on some points, like the fact that Ukrainians are unfortunately suffering, and the fact that corporations (including defence companies) are too greedy, at the expense of hospitals and such like.
Well then, when you claim that Russia’s involvement counts as an “invasion,” I’m not sure I agree because the disputed territories held votes to break away, invite Russia to defend their sovereignty, and to become part of Russia. Of course, those votes were held after a bunch of armed men took control of their local governments, but then, the Ukrainian parliament only voted to oust Yanukovych after a bunch of armed men took control of the parliament building. In my mind, neither is particularly reliable, but if you ask me to treat one as reliable, then it’s only fair that I treat the other the same way. In that view, either Ukraine’s current government is the result of a Western-backed coup, or Russia’s involvement is a response to a request for aid from the break away regions, and it’s primarily a civil war. If either of those things are true, then it’s enough for me to wash my hands of the situation.
Fair enough.