Okay, but let’s at least try to remember that there is mandatory conscription and service in Israel and that there is probably a significant proportion of people who have no other choice but to serve in the IDF. I am in no way attempting to excuse genocidal and homicidal actions that anyone has taken, but let’s at least attempt to understand the complexity of the issue instead of trying to reduce things to an unnaturally binary state.
Life is infinitely complex. Let’s use the wonderful tools of understanding that complex evolutionary pathways have afforded us to try to scratch the surface of that infinity. Empathy is strength; don’t let right-wing propaganda teach you that it is a weakness.
Exactly the excuse “oh I had to make that choice or else I would have suffered” is so lacking in solidarity that it’s infuriating.
This is how hierarchy maintains its power, by saying “hurt them or we will hurt you; do what we say or else”; making people believe it is acceptable to sacrifice the lives of others to remain safe under the current system. Their power is entirely predicated on people having that fear keeping them in line and obeying their orders.
We’ve seen now what happens in Israeli gaols - I can only imagine that they’d treat perceived “traitors” the same as Palestinians; perhaps worse.
They don’t deserve our sympathy, but they definitely deserve empathy. Choosing to turn off your empathy for groups of people is sociopathy and that’s a road I’m unwilling to go down.
there is probably a significant proportion of people who have no other choice but to serve in the IDF
fuck that genocide-enabling noise. if your choices are to go to prison or take part in mass murder of innocents, then you don’t get a pass for opting to kill people to save yourself some discomfort.
I don’t disagree with you, but let’s try to at least understand the complexity of those decisions instead of viewing the world in black/white. That sort of thinking breeds fascism and authoritarianism.
I am not engaging in genocidal apologia. Just because someone isn’t as hard-line as you are doesn’t mean that they’re opposed to you. Viewpoints are held on spectra because life doesn’t exist in binary states; it exists on spectra.
I hate the Israeli regime. I hate Zionism. I don’t believe that the state of Israel should exist. I think Benjamin Netanyahu and his ilk should be gaoled for the rest of their lives. I sympathise and empathise with the innocent people of Palestine and would love to see their sovereignty established and upheld by the international community.
I also believe that celebrating the suicide of IDF members is a fraught and dangerous precedent.
One can understand the complexity of a circumstance without ‘picking a side’. One can understand that humanity is complex, nuanced and difficult to understand. One can abhor the actions of a person while trying to better understand the motivations for that action. One can walk and chew gum.
There was germans who faced execusion for not following orders and protecting jews. Yet we didn’t give any excuses for people forced into the germany Nazi army
And perhaps more nuance should have been taken in those situations. Self-preservation is a basic human instinct and I would wager that many good people, when faced with the choice between kill someone else or be killed, would at the very least be extremely conflicted about that choice.
Just because we did something 70 years ago doesn’t mean we should be doing it now. Tradition is often a smokescreen for oppression. Let’s try and do better than our forebears and attempt to understand those who oppose us.
I’m not trying to justify anything - nowhere have I stated that any action that IDF soldiers or Hamas fighters have taken are justifiable. It’s an extremely messy, complex and convoluted set of circumstances and it does no one any service to attempt to simplify and boil down what has happened and what is happening to simple, binary soundbites.
I’m just trying to inject some empathy into this discussion. I understand that not everyone has a great capacity for empathy - particularly towards those who appear to have no empathy themselves - but to allow those who we oppose to turn us into death-hungry monsters is allowing them to harm us. I won’t allow the atrocities and war crimes to turn me into someone who cheers for death.
You only hear that bullshit when talking about the oppresors of palestinians. I never heard that excuse about russian soldiers. I never saw anybody critising rhe celebration of the death of war criminals like Dick Cheney
What you hear; what I hear; what others hear is entirely dependent upon what we subscribe to and what services we use to access information. We no longer live in a world where there are three newspapers everyone gets their information from. If you didn’t hear that then that’s likely due to the bubble you’re in. What I’ve heard is due to the bubble I’m in. We all get fed content that espouses views we already hold.
And I’d like to live in a magical floating castle. At least a dead IDF today will save a life tomorrow.
Okay, but let’s at least try to remember that there is mandatory conscription and service in Israel and that there is probably a significant proportion of people who have no other choice but to serve in the IDF. I am in no way attempting to excuse genocidal and homicidal actions that anyone has taken, but let’s at least attempt to understand the complexity of the issue instead of trying to reduce things to an unnaturally binary state.
Life is infinitely complex. Let’s use the wonderful tools of understanding that complex evolutionary pathways have afforded us to try to scratch the surface of that infinity. Empathy is strength; don’t let right-wing propaganda teach you that it is a weakness.
They literally have other choices than joining the IDF. That choice is gaol, instead they choose to commit genocide.
Fuck them all, zero sympathy for Nazis.
Exactly the excuse “oh I had to make that choice or else I would have suffered” is so lacking in solidarity that it’s infuriating.
This is how hierarchy maintains its power, by saying “hurt them or we will hurt you; do what we say or else”; making people believe it is acceptable to sacrifice the lives of others to remain safe under the current system. Their power is entirely predicated on people having that fear keeping them in line and obeying their orders.
We’ve seen now what happens in Israeli gaols - I can only imagine that they’d treat perceived “traitors” the same as Palestinians; perhaps worse.
They don’t deserve our sympathy, but they definitely deserve empathy. Choosing to turn off your empathy for groups of people is sociopathy and that’s a road I’m unwilling to go down.
fuck that genocide-enabling noise. if your choices are to go to prison or take part in mass murder of innocents, then you don’t get a pass for opting to kill people to save yourself some discomfort.
I don’t disagree with you, but let’s try to at least understand the complexity of those decisions instead of viewing the world in black/white. That sort of thinking breeds fascism and authoritarianism.
TIL that saying people should go to jail instead of being Nazis makes me a Nazi.
Then don’t double down on genocide apologia. It’s really that fucking simple.
I am not engaging in genocidal apologia. Just because someone isn’t as hard-line as you are doesn’t mean that they’re opposed to you. Viewpoints are held on spectra because life doesn’t exist in binary states; it exists on spectra.
I hate the Israeli regime. I hate Zionism. I don’t believe that the state of Israel should exist. I think Benjamin Netanyahu and his ilk should be gaoled for the rest of their lives. I sympathise and empathise with the innocent people of Palestine and would love to see their sovereignty established and upheld by the international community.
I also believe that celebrating the suicide of IDF members is a fraught and dangerous precedent.
One can understand the complexity of a circumstance without ‘picking a side’. One can understand that humanity is complex, nuanced and difficult to understand. One can abhor the actions of a person while trying to better understand the motivations for that action. One can walk and chew gum.
There was germans who faced execusion for not following orders and protecting jews. Yet we didn’t give any excuses for people forced into the germany Nazi army
And perhaps more nuance should have been taken in those situations. Self-preservation is a basic human instinct and I would wager that many good people, when faced with the choice between kill someone else or be killed, would at the very least be extremely conflicted about that choice.
Just because we did something 70 years ago doesn’t mean we should be doing it now. Tradition is often a smokescreen for oppression. Let’s try and do better than our forebears and attempt to understand those who oppose us.
You can justify hamas was crimes will the same bullshit.
Self preservation would have been to refuse to serve to choose jail over killing babies and risking your own life
I’m not trying to justify anything - nowhere have I stated that any action that IDF soldiers or Hamas fighters have taken are justifiable. It’s an extremely messy, complex and convoluted set of circumstances and it does no one any service to attempt to simplify and boil down what has happened and what is happening to simple, binary soundbites.
I’m just trying to inject some empathy into this discussion. I understand that not everyone has a great capacity for empathy - particularly towards those who appear to have no empathy themselves - but to allow those who we oppose to turn us into death-hungry monsters is allowing them to harm us. I won’t allow the atrocities and war crimes to turn me into someone who cheers for death.
You only hear that bullshit when talking about the oppresors of palestinians. I never heard that excuse about russian soldiers. I never saw anybody critising rhe celebration of the death of war criminals like Dick Cheney
What you hear; what I hear; what others hear is entirely dependent upon what we subscribe to and what services we use to access information. We no longer live in a world where there are three newspapers everyone gets their information from. If you didn’t hear that then that’s likely due to the bubble you’re in. What I’ve heard is due to the bubble I’m in. We all get fed content that espouses views we already hold.
Tomorrow when you wrote that is a Friday, and IDF are disprop{rtionately Jewish.
Literally the day of the week you are least likely to be correct.
Today is Saturday, when I wrote that it was Friday. Timezones.
Even your pedantry is wrong.
Sorry, no. There’s only one valid time zone. Thats how this works and everyone else is wrong/lying. I don’t know how you’re all so committed to this.