Great comment. And you have to acknowledge that it’s really hard to actually have these conversations. You might actually find out you’re wrong about something because you hadn’t considered something that’s fundamental to their view of the world. And, doing it the way you suggest is even harder than just arguing about it. Because you have to swallow your pride/anger when they talk about stealing the statue of liberty, and instead try to get the conversation back to something more reasonable.
My mom has become a crazy conspiracy theorist, but for most of my life she was a lefty. The result is that she’s not fully right wing, and instead has this weird jumble of beliefs that often clash with each-other. And it’s obvious that a lot of the time she’s just parroting the last thing she heard, without ever having thought about it. I have to admit that often I just dodge it when she brings up her latest conspiracy. It just takes too much energy to engage. Other times I get drawn in and actually just shoot down the ridiculous conspiracy. But, the most productive times are when I can put in the energy and effort to try to understand her underlying fears and why she wants to accept these fantastical stories.
this weird jumble of beliefs that often clash with each-other
Honestly, this is most of the US right now. Maybe much of the world broadly. The information/media age has not been kind to people with simple views and simple minds.
But yes, the huge challenge, and it is a real challenge, is setting aside that need to correct so, so many things that are going to be wrong or utterly batshit and just listen like you’re an alien visiting Earth and you have no idea how anything works so you’re getting it all from this first person you meet.
And this is part of the reason the other commenter is dead wrong.
Most of them know it takes energy to engage, and it takes a lot less out of them to engage in bad faith than it does for you to engage in good faith.
This is valuable effort that could be used to get people who are not active to be active, and instead its wasted on hateful people who aren’t simply “misunderstood” as naive viewpoints would have one believe.
When you talk to people and “figure out” that at a base level they want many of the same things you want, and then are confused at how to bridge the gap, its because the gap is, they only want the good things, if the people they hate can’t also have them. There is no bridge that can be gapped there. They, if trying to be polite/feign ignorance, will talk circles around those underlying views, but you can see in the loud ones and in the messaging of those they support what they are actually for clear as day. They want hierarchy, and they want people they hate below them. This is their single voter issue and its above the shirts on their backs.
This is valuable effort that could be used to get people who are not active to be active
This is not a zero-sum game, you can do fucking both. If you’re too fragile, that’s fine. Don’t. But I will not stand for people on the left saying it’s useless to reach people they don’t agree with, especially since we have minds and brains on our side (usually.)
Not only does this work, I am standing testament to it working. I’m sorry if you’ve had bad experiences but I promise you in real-life conversations you can change people. Like I changed. Like I have changed people. You can’t sit there angrily saying someone is dead-wrong for promoting a proven strategy for reaching people. If there were more people trying to do this, we would be in better shape broadly, but please, if you don’t have it in you, just don’t stand in the way of those who are trying. What are you even hoping to accomplish here other than trying to get recognized for having bad experiences?
This is not a zero-sum game, you can do fucking both.
See, thats the thing. You can’t. People have limited time and bandwidth. Doing something with a burn rate thats 9:1 with its rate of success, vs something with 1:9 makes no sense.
But I will not stand for
Doesn’t sound like you stand for much of anything tbh, so Im not sure this makes a difference.
saying it’s useless to reach people they don’t agree with
That’s not what was said, and you know that. The fact you have to resort to dishonest arguments betrays how weak your position really is.
The people I suggested reaching are still people with who progressives disagree, they just aren’t fuelled by hate.
Not only does this work, I am standing testament to it working.
This is very interesting and telling to me, but not in the way you’re hoping Im guessing.
but I promise you
I can promise you that your promises mean absolutely nothing to me. You’re also arguing against a point that isnt debated.
I promise you in real-life conversations you can change people.
You can, over long periods of time, with tremendously more effort than if you started with people that weren’t already off the deep end and weren’t already so far you lived in different universes.
Peer pressure from having converted the people who didn’t care will do far more work than fruitlessly banging heads against brick walls… racist brick walls at that.
What are you even hoping to accomplish here other than trying to get recognized for having bad experiences?
See, here we have more bad faith from you where you pretend that you being unwilling to engage with my point, means that the only reason I don’t align with you must be because of bad experiences rather than the plain logistics reasons I laid out of work in to result out. It makes no sense to start with the inefficient option.
Great comment. And you have to acknowledge that it’s really hard to actually have these conversations. You might actually find out you’re wrong about something because you hadn’t considered something that’s fundamental to their view of the world. And, doing it the way you suggest is even harder than just arguing about it. Because you have to swallow your pride/anger when they talk about stealing the statue of liberty, and instead try to get the conversation back to something more reasonable.
My mom has become a crazy conspiracy theorist, but for most of my life she was a lefty. The result is that she’s not fully right wing, and instead has this weird jumble of beliefs that often clash with each-other. And it’s obvious that a lot of the time she’s just parroting the last thing she heard, without ever having thought about it. I have to admit that often I just dodge it when she brings up her latest conspiracy. It just takes too much energy to engage. Other times I get drawn in and actually just shoot down the ridiculous conspiracy. But, the most productive times are when I can put in the energy and effort to try to understand her underlying fears and why she wants to accept these fantastical stories.
Honestly, this is most of the US right now. Maybe much of the world broadly. The information/media age has not been kind to people with simple views and simple minds.
But yes, the huge challenge, and it is a real challenge, is setting aside that need to correct so, so many things that are going to be wrong or utterly batshit and just listen like you’re an alien visiting Earth and you have no idea how anything works so you’re getting it all from this first person you meet.
And this is part of the reason the other commenter is dead wrong.
Most of them know it takes energy to engage, and it takes a lot less out of them to engage in bad faith than it does for you to engage in good faith.
This is valuable effort that could be used to get people who are not active to be active, and instead its wasted on hateful people who aren’t simply “misunderstood” as naive viewpoints would have one believe.
When you talk to people and “figure out” that at a base level they want many of the same things you want, and then are confused at how to bridge the gap, its because the gap is, they only want the good things, if the people they hate can’t also have them. There is no bridge that can be gapped there. They, if trying to be polite/feign ignorance, will talk circles around those underlying views, but you can see in the loud ones and in the messaging of those they support what they are actually for clear as day. They want hierarchy, and they want people they hate below them. This is their single voter issue and its above the shirts on their backs.
This is not a zero-sum game, you can do fucking both. If you’re too fragile, that’s fine. Don’t. But I will not stand for people on the left saying it’s useless to reach people they don’t agree with, especially since we have minds and brains on our side (usually.)
Not only does this work, I am standing testament to it working. I’m sorry if you’ve had bad experiences but I promise you in real-life conversations you can change people. Like I changed. Like I have changed people. You can’t sit there angrily saying someone is dead-wrong for promoting a proven strategy for reaching people. If there were more people trying to do this, we would be in better shape broadly, but please, if you don’t have it in you, just don’t stand in the way of those who are trying. What are you even hoping to accomplish here other than trying to get recognized for having bad experiences?
See, thats the thing. You can’t. People have limited time and bandwidth. Doing something with a burn rate thats 9:1 with its rate of success, vs something with 1:9 makes no sense.
Doesn’t sound like you stand for much of anything tbh, so Im not sure this makes a difference.
That’s not what was said, and you know that. The fact you have to resort to dishonest arguments betrays how weak your position really is.
The people I suggested reaching are still people with who progressives disagree, they just aren’t fuelled by hate.
This is very interesting and telling to me, but not in the way you’re hoping Im guessing.
I can promise you that your promises mean absolutely nothing to me. You’re also arguing against a point that isnt debated.
You can, over long periods of time, with tremendously more effort than if you started with people that weren’t already off the deep end and weren’t already so far you lived in different universes.
Peer pressure from having converted the people who didn’t care will do far more work than fruitlessly banging heads against brick walls… racist brick walls at that.
See, here we have more bad faith from you where you pretend that you being unwilling to engage with my point, means that the only reason I don’t align with you must be because of bad experiences rather than the plain logistics reasons I laid out of work in to result out. It makes no sense to start with the inefficient option.