• Devial@discuss.online
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    2 days ago

    This article feels weirdly opposed to these things on principle, purely because it’s unlikely that they’ll be useful, but why the fuck does that matter ?

    It’s not like they’re expensive, and there’s literally zero downside to having them in your car. Literal worst case scenario is that they simply do nothing. And in the event that they DO become useful, as incredibly unlikely as that might be, they can be a literal life saver.

    Also, you don’t just have to use them if YOU get into a crash. You can use them to render aid if someone else gets in a crash, and is stuck in their vehicle and they’re in acute danger (otherwise, never move crash victims, wait for the paramedics to stabilise their spine)

    By their some idiotic logic they use to rail against these devices, you might as well remove lightning rods from buildings or life vests from aircraft.

    Let me illustrate my point with a hypothetical:

    You’re stuck in a car after a Passenger side T-Bone. Your car is pinched between the guardrail and the other vehicle, so both passenger side and drivers side doors can’t be opened. The passenger seat/center console has been crushed against, and mangled the seatbelt receptacle, so you’re unable to unbuckle. There’s a fire, spreading towards the fuel tank.

    Question 1: Is it possible, however unlikely, for a person to be in this situation ?

    Question 2: do you think a person in that situation has better, worse, or equal odds of survival if they, or a bystander, has a window hammer and seatbelt cutter on them ?

    Question 3: Are there tools, in a similar price range, that an average joe could just as easily carry around in their car with them, which would increase the survival odds more than a regular window hammer and seatbelt cutter

    In my own personal assesment, my answers to those questions are “Yes”, “Significantly Better” and “I can’t think of one”. And that’s why I have both in my car. If something that costs less than 20$ to buy, has zero downside to own/have with you, and can increase my survival odds, even if only in an extremely unlikely scenario, then personally I consider it worth buying that thing.

    • Ech@lemmy.ca
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      3 days ago

      there’s literally zero downside to having them in your car. Literal worst case scenario is that they simply do nothing.

      That IS a major downside. Relying on something that won’t work in a life-or-death situation wastes precious time. Knowing they don’t work is important so better alternatives can be prepared and planned for.

    • FauxPseudo @lemmy.world
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      4 days ago

      Counting on a tool that isn’t going to work is a major downside. Especially in the life and death situations that cause you to need one.

      • Devial@discuss.online
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        4 days ago

        The alternative they’re advocating for is not having one at all, so no. It not working is litearlly no different from the alternative the article suggests.

        • FauxPseudo @lemmy.world
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          3 days ago

          Except now you have spent money on something that doesn’t work. It’s not “no different”, it’s a waste of resources.

          • Devial@discuss.online
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            3 days ago

            They’re not literally useless. A steel tipped hammer with a sharp tip is ALWAYS going to be one of the best tools to break a glass window. Even if it’s not as reliable or easy as it’s made seem in ads, it’s still going to be better than your hands or random junk you have in the car. And that’s not even mentioning that their whole criticism only applies to laminated glass windows.

            Plenty of cars, especially older ones, still use tempered glass, which can easily be shattered with one of these.

            And even the article doesn’t argue that seat belt cutters don’t work, only that you’re unlikely to be in a situation where you can effectively use them.

            And call me crazy, but if there’s even a 1 in a million chance that a 15$ tool could save mine, or someone else’s life, with literally no downside whatsoever to owning one, I personally consider that worth spending 15$ on.

            • FauxPseudo @lemmy.world
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              3 days ago

              Better than nothing but, according to the research, as useful as nothing. If you know in advance it will work on a particular car’s glass then that’s a different story. But if you give it as a gift or buy one without knowing and it turns out to be useless it grants a false sense of security. Someone may repeatedly try using it in an emergency instead of trying a different strategy.

              • Arcka@midwest.social
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                3 days ago

                according to the research

                You say that like it’s settled fact. Was the “research” peer-reviewed and published in a reputable journal? Has it been replicated?

                • FauxPseudo @lemmy.world
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                  2 days ago

                  Did you read the article? It’s the entire reason this post exists. There are two citations that will answer your questions.

                  • Arcka@midwest.social
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                    2 days ago

                    Yes I read the blog post and the linked “research”. There is no indication that it has been replicated or even academically reviewed.

                    The linked PDF is even missing sections 8 & 9 listed in its TOC.

              • Devial@discuss.online
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                3 days ago

                What different strategy do you suggest to gaining egress or ingress to a car whose doors can’t be opened, other than trying to smash one of the windows or windscreens ?

                And like I said, the seat belt cutter fine works exactly as intended, even if it’s unlikely you’ll need it, when you do, it’s gonna work. It’s literally just a knife, that has to be used once, so it’s not like it’ll blunt over time.

                • FauxPseudo @lemmy.world
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                  2 days ago

                  I don’t know yet. But now that we know alternatives to these tools are needed we can let some experts in the field figure that out. Because we now know that these are useless on laminated glass and, per the article, a third of the tools sampled didn’t even work on non-laminated glass.

                  The article also points out how useless the seatbelt cutter is. And after hanging upside-down in my truck last December I can attest from first hand experience that the cutter would have definitely done more harm than good in my particular case.

                  • Devial@discuss.online
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                    2 days ago

                    You don’t know, because there isn’t one. If the doors are too deformed to be opened normally, there are only three possible axes of ingress or egress to the car. You either break a window or screen, you violently force the door open, or cut the columns and remove the roof. And since I doubt you’re suggesting everyone start carrying hydraulic shears and heavy duty circular saws, in their car, window it is.

                    And if I’m in a situation where I have to break a car window, even if it’s only a 1 in a million chance I’ll ever be in that situation, I’d rather have one of those hammers than nothing.

                    Same thing for a seatbelt cutter. I bet if your truck had caught on fire, and the fire was about to breach the fuel tank, you would’ve loved a seatbelt cutter to quickly free yourself and get out.

                    Waiting for trained paramedics to extract crash victims is obviously ALWAYS the best options, but if there’s an acute threat to the vehicle, like fire, unstable ground or sinking, you CAN’T wait. You HAVE to extract yourself or die. And like I said, in that situation I’d much rather have a hammer and seatbelt cutter than have nothing. In a situation like that, there is no “doing more bad than good”. You are dead if you don’t extract yourself immediately. Nothing the tools do or don’t do at that point could possibly make the situation worse.

                    This is like arguing that people should be told to not perform chest compressions on people having heart attacks, because it’s incredibly unlikely to ever be needed, and the average person won’t do the compressions hard or fast enough to be effective anyway.