They talk about a few causes, but this is the gist of it for anyone who doesn’t want to click:
Researchers cited the pandemic as the biggest factor in the widening gender gap; it took a heavier toll on men. Unintentional injuries and poisonings (mostly drug overdoses), accidents and suicide were other contributors.
Still is, men are still dying more from Covid and in excess deaths from related conditions that are elevated like heart attacks and strokes.
The declining cd4 and cd8 cell counts however will strike men and women equally over time.
There are also studies that show men are less likely to got to a doctor or they go to late. In part that is because most male bodies tend to take longer before heavy symptoms are coming up but then they progress faster.
It has something to do with differences in immune system of men and women. When for example a man and a woman are infected with the same amount of viruses the women’s immune system will react faster so she gets symptoms earlier and goes to the doctor earlier as well. The man won’t have any symptoms but then the infection will suddenly progress fast when a critical amount of viruses is reached.
It’s of course more complex and there are tons of studies about it, but I think that’s something to keep in mind “in practice”.
This comes on top of the gender stereotypes which make some men shun the doctor.
Holy shit. That makes it even more problematic that many men tend to avoid going to the doctor. They essentially have less time once they do show symptoms. :(
You have any sources for that? Never heard of this before; sounds interesting.
There are different studies depending on the pathogen or diesease. But this one describes some of the more general effects I mean:
Sex differences in immune responses
Paywalled, but it provides a good list of additional sources via it’s references and list of articles that cite it: The influence of sex and gender on the immune response
Men trend more conservative than women overall (6 in 10 committed conservatives are men - pew) so more of them probably fell for the disinformation and denialism during the pandemic. Yes, we know that Republicans died more from COVID, to the tune of 15% more excess deaths.
That’s because in addition to the disinformation, many men also have to do the macho thing: https://youtu.be/1chYhsp3NRw
I forgot that suicide was super macho.
The fact that so many men are dying young should be it’s own issue, full stop. There is no reason to try to start a competition over it, or to try to force the topic to change to something else. This IS important, and it should be treated as such. Gain some empathy.
Did women get the rights to vote and wear pants just because they secretly wanted to? No. They fought against the standards of the time, and they had support from other groups. They didn’t have that support just because of their genetics, but also because other people had some goddamned empathy. We need to move past the “fuck you, I got mine” as a society if we EVER want things to be good overall. Nothing really excludes you from doing that, at least not if you actually care about others. I don’t even really care if someone has a damned disco ball down there, it’s horrible that people feel the NEED to live in a way that cuts their life short.
If you hear that a large group of people is dying young, the correct response is to figure out why, and solve it. The correct response is not to turn it into a competition or to blame the people who died so young. The correct response is to try to find a solution, and to possibly literally save lives. You are a bad person if you are happily ok with this going on. If you hate half of the population so badly that you don’t care about their death, you have no business telling that population how to live or how to be happy.
It’s tragic really. Imo, this is yet another situation where tradition and societal pressures kill people. Don’t be miserable to try to make dead people happy. Dead people who cared so little, that they didn’t put anything in place to help you in the future. Dead people who only cared about what they personally experienced during their time on earth. Dead people who had a very large hand in causing most of the pain that these people are feeling today.
Dudes reading this, I know it might be difficult depending on where you are, but please check up on your friends. Don’t tease them when they open up about serious things, and please listen to them talking about things they love. Change starts with you, and it starts with me. We can make a new future, and we don’t have to keep trying to please the people who will never see it.
Try to not be too hard on yourself, you’re probably doing the best that you can. Your best might “look like” 20% one day, and 80% the next, but it will still be YOUR 100%. You are only human, and no one is perfect. Please keep up the hobbies that you love, and always look towards better and brighter things. Some days that might be looking forwards to Friday, and other days that might be discovering a new passion. Love unconditionally, and build yourself and others up relentlessly. The odds that you specifically exist are so miniscule that it could almost be considered a miracle.
Even if it might not feel like it today, you are important. You have value. No one else out there has your exact combination of attributes, and only you can fill that role. Even if you’re in your 50’s, you can still pursue your passions and dreams. Many of the people who poop on your ambitions are people who regret not fulfilling their own. Don’t listen to angry people for live advice, as their methods are the best way to stay angry.
Please keep doing your best, and best wishes to y’all. It’s tough out there and I can’t imagine how tough it would feel to go at it alone. Strive for a better tomorrow, and never give up. Giving up is the only way to guarantee that this continues.
The fact that so many men are dying young should be it’s own issue, full stop. There is no reason to try to start a competition over it, or to try to force the topic to change to something else. This IS important, and it should be treated as such.
Did women get the rights to vote and wear pants just because they secretly wanted to? No.
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
Tbh I only mentioned it because I saw other comments trying to turn the post into yet another game “who has it worse” or “who can we blame so we don’t have to put any effort into fixing it”.
I also saw some toxic comments stating that men should just pull themselves out of it. I brought up the rights situation because it was another scenario that required more than just one group of people to make any proper change. We’ve done it before, why not again?
Expecting a group that is already struggling with life to suddenly magic themselves better is unrealistic at best. So, I tried to remind people that working together would be better.
You’re fine, it was overly verbose for my taste/consumption, but informative. When I see that much verbosity I’m suspect that it’s actually just a ChatGPT-type generated text/comment.
To the point, I was just friendly teasing, by emphasizing via italics, the fact that you were talking about something that shouldn’t be done, and then actually doing the thing you said you shouldn’t be doing, all in the same comment.
It’s all good! I wanted to make sure that I clarified just in case
Fair enough. Sincerely, no insult was meant (unless you really were using ChatGPT, then in that case “fuck you!” >:p ).
What’s your point?
or to try to force the topic to change to something else.
Seems like this is the point. No double standards.
or to try to force the topic to change to something else.
Seems like this is the point. No double standards.
Or more like saying we shouldn’t do this and then doing what you’re saying you shouldn’t be doing.
I would have thought the emphasis by italicizing would have been enough to make my point. Apparently it wasn’t.
What’s yours?
I am trying to understand what you meant to say, since it was not clear.
Check the parts I italicized, they’re emphasized to make my point.
Competition? What do women have to do with this? Who is happily ok with this going on? Who are you talking to?
There are a decent number of people just in these comments that are willing to just dismiss this as ‘toxic masculinity’ and move on. They think toxic masculinity is something entirely created and maintained by men. It is not. Many men have stories of women holding them to toxic masculine standards.
is this supposed to be an announcement to them?
It is an explanation of the misconception many people are under and why it is a misconception.
It is commentary that makes no assumptions of the person reading it.
It is an assumption of your first sentence is true. It’s even going into prediction.
What part is either assumption or prediction? Just read the comments.
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He didn’t write anything against that.
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Stfu
That’s fine. My job as a man is to die first. Is that toxic masculinity? Yes. Is it stupid? Also yes. But I’d rather die on my lawnmower than acknowledge feelings. I will go out 6 years early like a man.
I will work 12hr days and sacrifice my health for my family. Toxic maybe, but my duty as a man.
I’ll eat that 12oz sirloin and wash it down with beer and whiskey every night. Just so someone doesn’t call me gay. Doesn’t matter how many dudes I fuck in the ass!
Get that umbrella away from me faaaag.
Wow
Here’s what you get for listening to joe rogan for medical advice lol
Edit: for those calling out missandry, the article and I are talking about american men. You’re not the center pf the universe…
spits out elk jerky
Hey now don’t waste the elk jerky
You cant say with certainty that that is the cause because there are many other numerous factors that can cause this
joe rogan is an idiot though
I’m being facetious, it’s clearly a complexe issue
Obvious joke is obvious lol
Does this mean that I can also make jokes about the massive gaps in other situations against women?
There are way more male than female politicians: Maybe if you stop bickering about emotional bullshit you’d be liked and voted for.
There are way more men than women in the tech sector: I mean hey women know how to make a good dish and men know how to code a good porn site.
There are more men holding executive positions in public companies: Listen, that’s on you if your work goes to shit for a week every month.
I could go on but you get the idea. Is that OK?
Sounds like you took that personally…
Huh… is Joe Roganisn an identity now?
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I just saw someone being unfair towards a group of people and no one calling them out. If someone were to also make a joke at any minority group/protected class without anyone calling them out I’d do the same thing.
It’s just kinda hard to find people being misogynistic, racist, homophobic or whatever and no one calling them out at least here on lemmy. Which is good.
Sounds like you were just looking for an opportunity to spew your own misogyny. It came rather easily if not even a bit eagerly to you for an argument against it.
and despite how youre trying to sell it, it’s not ‘calling out’ someone when you precisely example it like you’re talking to a child.
And it is derailing, which is hypocritical.
And it’s aggressive.
So It misses the point your tying to argue it makes on so many levels.
It came rather easily if not even a bit eagerly to you for an argument against it.
I don’t even know what that means.
I was being aggressive by illustrating different situations to show that it’s unacceptable to anyone to make sexist jokes. But when it’s a sexist joke against men you don’t seem to care.
But what the hell am I derailing? The article said that suicides and overdoses are on the rise which cause early deaths disproportionately for men. Then the commenter said some dumb shit about health choices from Joe Rogan. There is no conversation here, OP just saw a chance to shit on meatheads but chose the wrong time and place.
And most importantly:
and despite how youre trying to sell it
*You’re
So It misses the point your tying to argue it makes on so many levels.
*You’re
And most importantly:
and despight how ur trying to cell it
So It missuz the point ur tying to RGew it makes on so many levels.
Better?
If that’s what you think a joke is maybe give up on trying for a comedy career.
Yeah buddy it’s the women who are too emotional. This is definitely a completely proportionate and rational reaction
Ironic that the thread is about men dying on average younger than women, and the majority of the responses are people completely ignoring that fact and instead just taking an opportunity to negatively stereotype men so they can shit on them collectively.
Men typically die younger than women across the world. Men tend to be higher risk takers and tend to be less social due to toxic masculinity. The strength of your social network is a huge factor in anyone’s lifespan/quality of life. Then in the west you have the “manosphere” (Joe Rorgan, Andrew Tate etc.) as a very popular men’s place for socializing, which is isolating in it’s own right and drives things that are, once again, already predominant traits in men like going to see doctors less and listening to their advice less.
These are the things I’m seeing brought up and they’re all real known phenomenon. Where’s the lie?
"Men die earlier because of toxic masculinity "
That is victim blaming, plain and simple.
Apply your logic to rape and women wearing revealing clothing and then tell me that your statement isn’t disgraceful and sickening.
Learn how to read and understand logic dude. Oh and cope harder.
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Oh good. Another article about men struggling with X. This certainly means that help is coming, right? Right guys?
The help: “Remember guys, it’s okay to not be plagued by X”
It’s ok to be weak without support structures, you’ll be fine. It’s ok to not have friends, making friends is hard, 15% of the male population having no close friends is something you can work past, you’ll be fine. It’s ok to have mental health problems, despite there not being any help or support for them, it’s ok to let them take over your life from time to time, lonely men’s bills pay themselves, right?
But you’re men, you’re meant to be strong, and stoic, and nothing is meant to phase you emotionally. You’re allowed to cry, just don’t be pathetic looking when you do it. Cry like a fucking man.
Another article you don’t want to mention to someone else on account of being shamed for acknowledging men have problems at all 😃
It’s not phrased as how this is actually a women’s issue, so no.
Has anybody considered that maybe we don’t want to live longer?
My entire life, I feel like my only value as a person has been to provide financial benefit to others. There is no passion. There is only obligation.
I’ve met those obligations. Those obligations required a whole lot of struggle and doing whatever was necessary with no regard to my physical or mental well-being. If at any time I tried to take pause and do something for myself, I was considered loathsome and…favorite zeitgeist buzzword, toxic. Only when I returned to giving all of myself to others was there any tolerance of my existence.
Now in my fifties, I’m tired. I don’t mean I’m I need a nap tired. I mean it at an existential level.
I refuse to spend my remaining years in doctors offices as they systemically extract every remaining dollar I’ve got while telling me I’m a terrible person for not living a perfectly physical life. I’ll choose the early exit and a nice clean estate to leave to my daughter.
When my time comes, I will go quietly into that cold dark void, and I will do so enthusiastically. I see no value in prolonging the inevitable merely for the benefit of others. Let me have this one small thing
I’m so sorry to read this. It must be ok to do stuff for yourself, anybody that tells you no is the one being toxic. As they say in fight club, you are not defined by your job. Especially in this time of AI and extreme automation, we must normalise that not having a job, or not living for your job, doesn’t mean you are worthless. This is valid for women as well, btw.
It sounds like you have personal issues that go beyond aging
It’s not personal issues, it’s patriarchal issues. Just about every guy I know past a certain age, myself included, feel the burn from this. You are expected to just give give give and anytime you have needs, including some damn rest, you are looked down on for it and marginalized. You don’t see how much of a dog shit deal this is until you burn out.
If you don’t have a reason to keep on living, you have to make one. Set your direction. You don’t have to live just to provide for others.
If you don’t have a reason to keep on living, you have to make one. Set your direction. You don’t have to live just to provide for others.
It’s like you didn’t read what he said. You can do exactly that, set your own reason and start expressing yourself as you feel. The problem is that you are looked down on for it and marginalized. One of my best friends is gay, and he works in sales. He has to conceal much of himself to get by, and even in situations where he’s comfortable discussing his orientation, even amongst his own circles the issue of talking about your feelings is still difficult for people to accept.
If it’s an issue for gay people, imagine how fucked it is for straight people. Your comment comes off as if you clicked reply on the wrong thing.
I get that it isn’t simple or easy. There are parts of myself that I hide in public too, things that shouldn’t matter but for some reason do.
But if people are demanding that you give and give and give until there is nothing left, you owe it to yourself to either tell them to get fucked or find a way to get them out of your life. Easier said than done, I know, but it is the only way you will be free of that bullshit.
you are looked down on for it and marginalized
You just said and exact quote
you owe it to yourself to either tell them to get fucked or find a way to get them out of your life.
When that list includes your own mother, father, siblings, supervisor at work, and SO, I think your advice is tantamount to amputating a limb because of the discomfort it experiences in life, as opposed to recognizing the issue. I’m taking what you’re saying as aloof to the very subject matter here, and hence the subject we’re discussing here in the first place. The idea of telling your loved ones to get fucked and get them out of your life is in line with the issue of suicide, depression, and anxiety.
The depression from where you just became lonelier, and the suicide as many people see it as an “out”. You may as well just say, go kill yourself if you don’t like this world…and then we’re back to square one again.
Either way, have a nice downvote for your terrible attitude. I hope you have something better to say than the old “toughen up” advice that constitutes what makes this fucked.
If I sound aloof then I am sorry. But I have had to make similar choices. Saying goodbye to shit people can be truly difficult, but it’s either that or endure their shit if they won’t listen to you.
I am not saying to wallow in loneliness. You will need to find non-shit people to make a friend network, even just a small one.
It is a lot of effort and even the prospect is scary as fuck…but living a life enduring an untenable burden will never be better.
Sometimes life gives us impossible choices. Like upend everything or live in misery.
Bud, we hide this shit because the punishment for not doing so is worse than whatever we gain from not hiding it, we wouldnt have started hiding it if it weren’t
I have autism. I know far more about that than you’d think.
May I suggest revenge? Great reason. Also nazi hunting is pretty sweet. Take a few of the bastards with you.
Seems like you are in a tight spot. It must be immensely hard for you to feel the burden of “having to give” while it seems that nobody really cares about your well-being and gives back. I’m really sorry for you. It’s obvious that you’re far from happy about that. That’s only natural. I bet most people would feel the same if they were in your spot. And yet, it really sucks that no one around you seems to see.
I can understand that you got exhausted by all of this and don’t want to continue living like that any longer than you need to.I hope I don’t cross any line, whith the following. My apologies if that happens. Please feel free to ignore this completely if you’d rather not talk more about this.
Would you like to change your situation if it were possible somehow?
You said that you were misunderstood as “loathsome” and “toxic” when you tried to care for yourself. If it’s okay for you to tell us more about your situation: How did that happen?
I wish the men in my life would visit a doctor, get an annual check up, and take more preventative measures protecting their health.
Sounds expensive
Only in the US.
oh.
Other countries pay for it in high taxes. You pay for it somehow.
Edit:
Every tiny bit of interaction with the medical system in the US costs a multitude of what the same interaction costs in other countries.
There’s a reason why “international medical insurance” for say European travelers excludes the US by default. And if it includes US, it costs 4-10 times as much.
We have the tax money already in the US, we just dump most of it into the MI complex.
Probably
You pay more for it in the US anyway, and don’t necessarily have anything to show for it.
It’s just lose/lose for the US people.
We pay plenty in taxes to cover healthcare already. It’s just wasted on a bloated military budget. That and lobbyists prevent any changes that would negatively impact the healthcare industry’s bottom line.
US is 13th in the world for the highest marginal individual income tax rate. Throw in the cost of education, medical bills, insurance, and property taxes, just to name a few, we as Americans are getting screwed.
You’re right, I pay 5-10x as much out of my income 😀
I’m blessed to have good health/dental insurance and I guarantee you I make sure I get my money’s worth from it. I get my annual physicals, my required pokings and proddings, etc.
Maybe you should talk to them first instead of wishing for them to pay for help not involving you.
You’re victim blaming
It’s a lot cheaper for women to act like adults and stop treating them like utter dog shit.
You wanna throw in blaming immigrants too? It’s right there, easy pickings. C’mon, you know you want to.
That’s weird. Well, I’m gonna go catch a speeding bullet with my teeth, wish me luck!
Good luck, we’re all counting on you.
Yes, but what about those women who have to lose their husbands and sons? They are the real victims.
…and not the dead guys?
You’re not wrong that they matter too, but both things can be bad
I don’t know how many people have noticed, but I was being sarcastic.
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Poe’s law my friend.
Oh crap my bad XD
Lol it was a reference to how Hilary Clinton once said wives and daughters were the real victims of war.
Hillary Clinton, 1998?
Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.
I don’t know how many people have noticed, but I was being sarcastic.
Best to use /s when you are.
Even italicising a point doesn’t seem to make it through the consumption to understanding; need to be more explicit here it seems.
It feels like if the issue involves men it is not considered important. Boys struggle in school more now but only girls get attention, young men die to violence more, middle aged men die to suicide more, etc.
As a man, I’m okay with this. Take care of others, first. I have been afforded a myriad of privileges simply because my genitals are external. We could do with less men, honestly. I know a lot of misogynistic assholes and the world would have been better if they’d been aborted or castrated.
Go fuck yourself. You’re part of the problem
We really do not need to be that rude …
The dude they’re responding to literally said he was fine with men dieing.
They aren’t wrong though. UnknownHandsome’s views are truly abhorrent.
Yeah but you do not converse with insulting somebody. If you want someone to change opinions maybe be a bit nice
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Correct thing to do is treat everyone equally, not to change the unfair advantage into a disadvantage. Thats not equality.
Take care of everyone.
Sounds like you have some problems to work out
gr8 b8 m8
So I’ll be honest and say I have no want to prolong my life any longer than I absolutely have to. I have a myriad of mental issues, no plans to start or have a family and in general very little want to live another 50ish years.
I think that’s not uncommon in a lot of men either. There’s very little incentive to make it that long anymore. I’ll be working till the day I die and some poor choices in my life up to this point have put a significant damper on what’s left.
no plans to start or have a family
Do you want to start/have a family? Society seems to pressure people into the mindset of wanting to “start a family”, but many people don’t actually want to, and that’s fine too.
Nope, and while that’s a fine choice to make, it still leaves me pretty much alone for the remainder of my life.
I don’t like making friends, nor am I good at it, and whenever I do manage to make one it fades away extremely fast no matter the effort I put in. Which makes it very clear it’s a me problem, so I just stopped trying.
Are you getting help?
I did for a while. It never eased the existential dread of existing another day, so I eventually stopped once my therapist and I agreed that I could be a functioning member of society.
Talking about things doesn’t really do much for me. I’m extremely self-aware of why I am the way that I am, and it’s something I’ve come to peace with. I’m not necessarily unhappy, just content with living a very, very uneventful and short life.
I see. So if there was a possibility to improve that, would you be willing to take it or are you fine as it is?
I’m guessing no, since that would defeat the entire point of what they just said. I can relate to this.
“There’s been a lot of research into the decline in life expectancy in recent years, but no one has systematically analyzed why the gap between men and women has been widening since 2010,”
Since 2010, what happened in 2010? Was that when they started prescribing oxy willy nilly, maybe. I think women took as much though, why would bring down the life expectancy just for men.
100% with you on opioids being a leading cause.
To your 2nd point: in pretty much all drug abuse/addiction, men are more likely to abuse or become dependent, and they tend to use higher amounts on average.
The addiction rates of legally prescribed opioids is surprisingly small. The problem was pill mills and diversion to the secondary market. People who are looking to get high tend to have a very large chance of becoming addicted. If anything the pendulum has cut people on both sides. First they had pill mills and pills flooded the streets. Then they basically stopped almost all prescriptions and then you had everyone all the sudden scrambling for pills, real pills evaporated quickly. Fentanly 30s started flooding the streets and then just fentanyl powder sold as H, because why pay more for a pill if it’s the same stuff.
Something happened in 2008
Don’t you DARE blame this on Obama.
I think the financial crisis and the resultant decade of falling living standards for the poor and lower middle are probably more of a factor than Obama’s election there.
Thanks Obama!
As long as men are going to be the ones having to do the grunt work, having to be the one to bring in the money and do the dangerous jobs, this will never change.
Unfortunately, most people don’t want that to change.
People who want to maintain traditional gender roles don’t want change. Feminists on the other hand would like to see more women in trades and more men in nursing/teaching and do want change.
The craziest part to me is when people act like it’s the opposite way around.
Really? In a country where there is a resturante that is called “heartattack” and a healtcare system that is called “unamerican”? I can’t fathom how this is possible.
