can they ban you for wearing a necklace with a cross? or a scarf around your head?
This is madness, what bad does it do to other people, this is like banning lgbtq people from kissing outside cause it makes others uncomfortable.
This isn’t about banning people from wearing their religious merchandise in public. This is banning religious objects from workplaces. More precisely just public workplaces. Of course a secular state should also have secular workplaces. And the way labour rights are personal life can be completely banned from your workplace. Why would religion be treated differently?
Is that the workplace you want? Devoid of personal lives but mere drones who congregate to labour and then disperse into their personal lives where finally they are free to express themselves how they want?
I think it gets pretty hypocritical, singling out religion like that. In the workplace, I can have memorabilia of my favorite sports team even though someone else hates it (unless perhaps it’s a Catholic School team that has a cross in its logo?). I can have the flag of a hostile foreign country because I’m proud of my heritige. I can have a picture of me kissing my wife even though it would normally be just outside the common no-tolerance Harassment policy. Unless it was taken at the wedding, or in/near a religious monument. I can wear gauge earrings, or just a little star… as long as it’s not a Star of David. Ditto with pendants, even new-agey wooowooo pendants, as long as it’s not a pentagram. There’s no path there that isn’t hypocritical.
Freedom of religion and freedom from religion go hand-in-hand, and it’s not always an easy relationship to figure out. Forced private secularism is its own anti-freedom problem, even when discussing the employee at a government workplace. It’s not really secular if I’m forbidden from wearing something for solely religious reasons. Even if the religious reason is that the thing I want to wear is religious.
I’d say there is a difference between politics and regular hobbies at the workplace. Religion is a very political issue, one about your worldview and beliefs.
From a political point of view, irreligion is religion. Telling every single person who works at a location how they are or aren’t allowed to peacably express their religious views or lack thereof is a religious action by government. By definition, not secularism.
It’s ok (-ish) to actively seek an atheist state, but it’s duplicitous to do it under the guise of secularism. The separation of Church and government (secularism) most accurately means that government “make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise”. I hate to go all “Murica”, but the concept is secularism is often tied to that prior quote. How is telling people they can’t wear a cross or pentacle or anything in between anything but “prohibiting its free exercise”?
thing is most peoplenIknoew, when they wear a cross or smt, it’s not even a big deal for them, theyre just just wearing, doesn’t mean they are going to siddenly start talking to you about religion.
Those people aren’t the problem. The people who can’t even take that little step of taking the cross off are the problem. Religion should be kept out of matters of state.
like banning lgbtq people from kissing outside cause it makes others uncomfortable.
We’re talking about bans in workplaces here. And I think that your example is fitting. If a workplace can ban people kissing (or wearing a pyjama then it should be allowed to ban religion affiliated clothing as well.
That sad, I do be live that in most cases employers shouldn’t be allowed to ban these things. If you end up working with your boyfriend and occasionally share a short kiss, that’s not going to affect your work and if you’re able to do your job in your PJs, then you should be allowed to do so.
The title is false, it’s only a judgment in court on whether member states should be allowed to ban such visible signs for public servants or should be deprived of that right.
Yeah, it’s one less freedom for the citizens(, and more freedom for the member states), but as someone (still )living in France it’s probably for our security or whatever(, this says it’s our guarantee for freedom).
It’s not worse than when they killed the Church, religion is too important and now it’s gone, and our lives ~solely guided by/for virtue/‘(the city of )God’ with it, they can ban all religions now for all i care, religion’s places aren’t for the private lives only, it shine’s/d’ mostly when it’s the main pillar of our state. What is supposed to guide us when it’s gone, the “realism” of a selfish quest for power ? No consequences for sinning if you’re not caught(, since morality is relative/inexistant) ? Looking at “our” feet, satisfied, instead of the humiliating highness of the skies/Sky ?
What is religion if not realising we’ll never be enough because our eyes ‘look at’/‘are searching for’ Perfection/Maximum ? We killed our link with God and replaced it with idols, our downfall was announced and our decadence has been visible in the last centuries, poets were the first to disappear, we’re so decadent that we don’t even realize that people from the past wrote hundreds of time better than us, the scientific explosion was already unstoppable before the XVIIIth century, it isn’t linked in any way to our destruction of the benevolent Church.
It’ll just be one more deserved downfall after all, i wouldn’t cry over it if we didn’t try to bring others down with us, the sooner we disappear the better, we’ve long assumed our dishonesty in the name of “realism” or whatever, we’re not christians, nor are we even trying to be, it’s for irrealist goody-two-shoes, not for serious people, and i’m fed up currently, there are still a vast majority of good people but i’m angry, hopefully it’ll pass like all things, are we even trying to build a better world ? What’s our plan/vision ? What am i supposed to support here, capitalist “democracy” with depoliticized citizens and owned private medias, what else ? The “rule of law” that changes according to whoever obtained power/wealth ? What else, our innemurable murderous ventures in every single non-western country in the last 100 years, and irrecoverable cultural annihilation through colonisation before that ? Our propaganda against “unfree” “regimes” needing to be liberated ? What am i supposed to support if we’re not even aiming&acting for a better world for all ? It doesn’t seem like we’re trying, just a nationalistic “America/France/… first” all around, short-term visions and widespread fear&hate, not any ounce of love towards our designated enemies, no plan for living in a mutual peace, what makes us on the right side if not our pitiful/disdainful lies against our so-called enemies ? If we(sterners) don’t support humanity then why would i support us ? Our duty is to make a better world for all, not for our group, neo-colonialism is a shame, and we’re lying about it like with so many other things, it’s not clever to lie we’re so despicable, we should help each other, for real, we should f*cking change, now. If not our downfall is to be hoped for, and the rest of humanity should cheer for it if it means the advent of a better world for all of us.
Have you heard of the concept of changing your mind or even changing your world view? Or even just the concept of preventing the people who currently hold the belief from passing it on to the next generation?
can they ban you for wearing a necklace with a cross? or a scarf around your head? This is madness, what bad does it do to other people, this is like banning lgbtq people from kissing outside cause it makes others uncomfortable.
This isn’t about banning people from wearing their religious merchandise in public. This is banning religious objects from workplaces. More precisely just public workplaces. Of course a secular state should also have secular workplaces. And the way labour rights are personal life can be completely banned from your workplace. Why would religion be treated differently?
Is that the workplace you want? Devoid of personal lives but mere drones who congregate to labour and then disperse into their personal lives where finally they are free to express themselves how they want?
If your personal life is 100% religion, you’re a drone anyway.
The ol strawman
No I want democratic workplaces. But also workplaces without religion nonetheless.
I think it gets pretty hypocritical, singling out religion like that. In the workplace, I can have memorabilia of my favorite sports team even though someone else hates it (unless perhaps it’s a Catholic School team that has a cross in its logo?). I can have the flag of a hostile foreign country because I’m proud of my heritige. I can have a picture of me kissing my wife even though it would normally be just outside the common no-tolerance Harassment policy. Unless it was taken at the wedding, or in/near a religious monument. I can wear gauge earrings, or just a little star… as long as it’s not a Star of David. Ditto with pendants, even new-agey wooowooo pendants, as long as it’s not a pentagram. There’s no path there that isn’t hypocritical.
Freedom of religion and freedom from religion go hand-in-hand, and it’s not always an easy relationship to figure out. Forced private secularism is its own anti-freedom problem, even when discussing the employee at a government workplace. It’s not really secular if I’m forbidden from wearing something for solely religious reasons. Even if the religious reason is that the thing I want to wear is religious.
I’d say there is a difference between politics and regular hobbies at the workplace. Religion is a very political issue, one about your worldview and beliefs.
From a political point of view, irreligion is religion. Telling every single person who works at a location how they are or aren’t allowed to peacably express their religious views or lack thereof is a religious action by government. By definition, not secularism.
It’s ok (-ish) to actively seek an atheist state, but it’s duplicitous to do it under the guise of secularism. The separation of Church and government (secularism) most accurately means that government “make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise”. I hate to go all “Murica”, but the concept is secularism is often tied to that prior quote. How is telling people they can’t wear a cross or pentacle or anything in between anything but “prohibiting its free exercise”?
Is that a trick question? Because my answer is a resounding yes.
That’s what capitalism wants. They want their leaders and ceos to be their gods.
No they can not ban you, but they can ban your cross.
If you can’t live without your cross, that is on you.
Technically, covering your “naughty bits” is a religious taboo. Can they ban that?
Other people are calling that a slippery slope, but crosses as symbols absolutely transcend religions as much as clothing as a religious moral.
thing is most peoplenIknoew, when they wear a cross or smt, it’s not even a big deal for them, theyre just just wearing, doesn’t mean they are going to siddenly start talking to you about religion.
Those people aren’t the problem. The people who can’t even take that little step of taking the cross off are the problem. Religion should be kept out of matters of state.
Demanding someone remove jewelry because you don’t approve of its religious connotations is not secularism. It’s the opposite.
If religion is kept out of matters of state, state needs to be blind to religion, not zealously purging all signs of it.
Just wear it under your shirt.
No, it’s not on you, that’s against the rules now
We’re talking about bans in workplaces here. And I think that your example is fitting. If a workplace can ban people kissing (or wearing a pyjama then it should be allowed to ban religion affiliated clothing as well. That sad, I do be live that in most cases employers shouldn’t be allowed to ban these things. If you end up working with your boyfriend and occasionally share a short kiss, that’s not going to affect your work and if you’re able to do your job in your PJs, then you should be allowed to do so.
The title is false, it’s only a judgment in court on whether member states should be allowed to ban such visible signs for public servants or should be deprived of that right.
Yeah, it’s one less freedom for the citizens(, and more freedom for the member states), but as someone (still )living in France it’s probably for our security or whatever(, this says it’s our guarantee for freedom).
It’s not worse than when they killed the Church, religion is too important and now it’s gone, and our lives ~solely guided by/for virtue/‘(the city of )God’ with it, they can ban all religions now for all i care, religion’s places aren’t for the private lives only, it shine’s/d’ mostly when it’s the main pillar of our state. What is supposed to guide us when it’s gone, the “realism” of a selfish quest for power ? No consequences for sinning if you’re not caught(, since morality is relative/inexistant) ? Looking at “our” feet, satisfied, instead of the humiliating highness of the skies/Sky ?
What is religion if not realising we’ll never be enough because our eyes ‘look at’/‘are searching for’ Perfection/Maximum ? We killed our link with God and replaced it with idols, our downfall was announced and our decadence has been visible in the last centuries, poets were the first to disappear, we’re so decadent that we don’t even realize that people from the past wrote hundreds of time better than us, the scientific explosion was already unstoppable before the XVIIIth century, it isn’t linked in any way to our destruction of the benevolent Church.
It’ll just be one more deserved downfall after all, i wouldn’t cry over it if we didn’t try to bring others down with us, the sooner we disappear the better, we’ve long assumed our dishonesty in the name of “realism” or whatever, we’re not christians, nor are we even trying to be, it’s for irrealist goody-two-shoes, not for serious people, and i’m fed up currently, there are still a vast majority of good people but i’m angry, hopefully it’ll pass like all things, are we even trying to build a better world ? What’s our plan/vision ? What am i supposed to support here, capitalist “democracy” with depoliticized citizens and owned private medias, what else ? The “rule of law” that changes according to whoever obtained power/wealth ? What else, our innemurable murderous ventures in every single non-western country in the last 100 years, and irrecoverable cultural annihilation through colonisation before that ? Our propaganda against “unfree” “regimes” needing to be liberated ? What am i supposed to support if we’re not even aiming&acting for a better world for all ? It doesn’t seem like we’re trying, just a nationalistic “America/France/… first” all around, short-term visions and widespread fear&hate, not any ounce of love towards our designated enemies, no plan for living in a mutual peace, what makes us on the right side if not our pitiful/disdainful lies against our so-called enemies ? If we(sterners) don’t support humanity then why would i support us ? Our duty is to make a better world for all, not for our group, neo-colonialism is a shame, and we’re lying about it like with so many other things, it’s not clever to lie we’re so despicable, we should help each other, for real, we should f*cking change, now. If not our downfall is to be hoped for, and the rest of humanity should cheer for it if it means the advent of a better world for all of us.
Shit tier take, with no nuance and a dashing of embedded prejudice.
Religion is a cancer, the quicker we kill it, the better society will be. In other words, religion does a lot of bad by being propagated.
Bruuh. I am not saying you are wrong, but you are criticizising what you are doing yourself by a much stronger margin.
Religion is poison
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Religion is poison
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Listen to yourself. You’re no better than an Islamic terrorist wanting to slaughter infidels.
You need to learn to distinguish between belief and people holding that belief, but maybe you are getting that wrong on purpose.
No. I’m thinking logically. The only way to kill the belief would be to kill the people who hold it.
Have you heard of the concept of changing your mind or even changing your world view? Or even just the concept of preventing the people who currently hold the belief from passing it on to the next generation?
So does that mean you can change your world view too? 😂
Sure, give me some evidence that the world doesn’t work the way I think it does and I can change it.
First, tell me how you think the world works?