Every day there’s more big job cuts at tech and games companies. I’ve not seen anything explaining why they all seam to be at once like this. Is it coincidence or is there something driving all the job cuts?
A few things happened pretty quickly.
During the pandemic, tech profits soared which led to massive hiring sprees. For all the press about layoffs at the big guys, I think most still have more workers than they did pre-pandemic.
Interests rates soared. Before the pandemic interest rates were ludicrously low, in other words it cost almost nothing to borrow money. This made it easier to spend on long term or unclear projects where the hope seemed to be “get enough users, then you can monetize.” Once interest rates rose, those became incredibly expensive projects, so funding is now much more scarce. Companies are pulling back on bigger projects or, like reddit, trying to monetize them faster. Startups are also finding it harder, so fewer jobs.
And of course, AI. No one is quite sure how much that’ll change the game but some folks think most programmers will be replaceable, or at least 1 programmer will be able to do the work of several. So, rather than hire and go through everything severance etc might entail, I think a lot of companies are taking a wait and see approach and thus not hiring.
I want to offer my perspective on the AI thing from the point of view of a senior individual contributor at a larger company. Management loves the idea, but there will be a lot of developers fixing auto-generated code full of bad practices and mysterious bugs at any company that tries to lean on it instead of good devs. A large language model has no concept of good or bad, and it has no logic. It’ll happily generate string-templated SQL queries that are ripe for SQL injection. I’ve had to fix this myself. Things get even worse when you have to deal with a shit language like Bash that is absolutely full of God awful footguns. Sometimes you have to use that wretched piece of trash language, and the scripts generated are horrific. Remember that time when Steam on Linux was effectively running
rm -rf /*on people’s systems? I’ve had to fix that same type of issue multiple times at my workplace.I think LLMs will genuinely transform parts of the software industry, but I absolutely do not think they’re going to stand in for competent developers in the near future. Maybe they can help junior developers who don’t have a good grasp on syntax and patterns and such. I’ve personally felt no need to use them, since I spend about 95% of my time on architecture, testing, and documentation.
Now, do the higher-ups think the way that I do? Absolutely not. I’ve had senior management ask me about how I’m using AI tooling, and they always seem so disappointed when I explain why I personally don’t feel the need for it and what I feel its weaknesses are. Bossman sees it as a way to magically multiply IC efficiency for nothing, so I absolutely agree that it’s likely playing a part in at least some of these layoffs.
So basically, once again, management has no concept of the work and processes involved in creating/improving [thing], but still want to throw in the latest and greatest [buzzword/tech-of-the-day], and then are flabbergasted why their devs/engineers/people who actually do the work tell them it’s a bad idea.
I’m pretty excited about LLMs being force multipliers in our industry. GitHub’s Copilot has been pretty useful (at times). If I’m writing a little utility function and basically just write out the function signature, it’ll fill out the meat. Often makes little mistakes, but I just need to follow up with little tweaks and tests (that it’ll also often write).
It also seems to take context of my overall work at the time somehow and infers what I’ll do next occasionally, to my astonishment.
It’s absolutely not replacing me any time soon, but it sure can be helpful in saving me time and hassle.
Those little mistakes drove me nuts. By the end of my second day with copilot, I felt exhausted from looking at bad suggestions and then second guessing whether I was the idiot or copilot was. I just can’t. I’ll use ChatGPT for working through broad issues, catching arcane errors, explaining uncommented code, etc. but the only LLM whose code output doesn’t generally create a time cost for me is Cody.
If you tried copilot at the beginning, it’s improved a lot since, now it’s using GPT-4.
A large language model has no concept of good or bad, and it has no logic.
Tragically, this seems to be the minority viewpoint - at least among CS students. A lot of my peers seem to have convinced themselves that the hallucination machines are intelligent… even when it vomits unsound garbage into their lap.
This is made worse by the fact that most of our work is simple and/or derivative enough for
$MODELto usually give the right answer, which reinforces the majority “thinking machine” viewpoint - while in reality, generating an implementation of&using only~and|is hardly an Earth-shattering accomplishment.And yes, it screws them academically. It doesn’t take a genius to connect the dots when the professor who encourages Copilot use has a sub-50% test average.
To add to this, at my company, we’ve received a mandate to avoid putting any code into an AI prompt because of privacy concerns. So effectively no one is using it here.
Yep as far as most companies should be concerned, using something like CoPilot means giving free license to Microsoft to all your trade secrets and code that you input.
We had the same. And you would have thought for a heavily regulated industry we’d keep it that way.
But no, some executive wonk from Microsoft flew over, gave our c-suite a “it’s safe, promise” chat over champagne and lobster, and now we’re happily using copilot.
a shit language like Bash
There’s your mistake, treating bash like a language and not like a scripting tool. Its strength is that it’s a common standard available on almost every machine because its older than most of us, its weakness is that it’s full of horribly outdated syntax because its older than most of us. If used to script other processes it’s great, but when you start using it as a language then the number of ways you can do something horrible that sort of works makes JavaScript look slick!
Are we great again yet?
I’m here to repeal and replace good things, and I’m all out of “replace”.
OMG I luv this:-) So, in your honor:
Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water. AI had the potential to alleviate a lot of pressures of society, to free up much of our time spent doing tedious mindless tasks. We just need to make sure to use it for the benefit of the many rather than the profit of the few. I don’t want a union that wants to keep labor busy and well compensated, I want a union that keeps people safe, happy, and compensated properly
We’re like a century past innovation making our 40 hour work week into a 20 hour one
I fully believe we’ll get a standardized 60 hour work week before we get a 20 hour one. Hell, I’m pretty sure we’d relegalize slavery before we get a 20 hour work week. Your average American will bend over backwards for a chance to please “the boss” and actively rat on their colleagues for avoiding work because our cultural understanding of loyalty is functionally equivalent to boot licking.
Yeah, except there’s no way the owners would give up any of the profits for the betterment of society. Every technological improvement since the industrial revolution made productivity skyrocket, and yet the capitalists made sure working people were still hovering just above destitution. The only reason some of us have it better is because unions fought them, and that includes Luddites that would destroy the means of production.
A lot of technology problems and utilizing AI for the betterment of humanity could all be dealt with easily if we just removed a large chunk of the bloated administrative, management and ownership hogs at the top that contribute nothing, stall everything and constantly sabotage development with their politics, infighting and warring with competitors. If you remove the profit factor, corporate greed and economic shortsightedness in these situations, a lot of problems can be dealt with fairly easily and fairly quickly.
Unfortunately, we are greedy monkeys who want to rule the world and once you give power to one monkey or a small group of monkeys, they immediately try to overpower all the other monkeys and rule the jungle.
I completely agree, although I think AI is more likely to have impact marketing, communications, PR, creative and PM type roles (and there are a lot of those in tech companies). I suspect we will see a noticeable reduction in tech workers over the next decade.
Interests rates soared. Before the pandemic interest rates were ludicrously low, in other words it cost almost nothing to borrow money. This made it easier to spend on long term or unclear projects where the hope seemed to be “get enough users, then you can monetize.” Once interest rates rose, those became incredibly expensive projects, so funding is now much more scarce. Companies are pulling back on bigger projects or, like reddit, trying to monetize them faster. Startups are also finding it harder, so fewer jobs.
Note that this also impacted other projects that take a lot of capital up front, then provide a return over a very long term. There was a nuclear power plant project with NuScale in Utah that got shelved over this; with interest rates suddenly going from way low to way high, the economics get upended.
I’d bet that in general, infrastructure spending dropped across the board.
The Federal Reserve raised interest rates in order to cause layoffs. The capitalist class wanted to enlarge the reserve army of labor so that workers would be too worried about losing their jobs to demand raises.
‘You Are Gambling With People’s Lives’: Warren Rips Powell Over Job-Killing Rate Hikes
This is a thing that sounds like some crazy uncle bullshit but it is actually completely true and non-controversial.
The scariest thing to a central banker when it comes to inflation is that wages might start to go up. When that happens the inflations is basically permanent.
People need to understand that the Federal Reserve is the cartel of the US private banks, and that they have captured the US Treasury as well, which is the US sovereign fiat money printer. Just look at the history of people in executive positions at the Treasury and the Fed. It’s a revolving door between those positions and the executive positions at major US banks and corporations.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
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Bitcoin solves this. Clear, unambiguous, unchanging monetary policy that doesn’t constantly increase the supply and take a portion of your dollar’s value to give to anybody else. It is not aligned with any country or even block of countries and is truly the first international currency in that sense. No politician or even national or supra-national government can force Bitcoin do do anything that isn’t part of its protocol because it’s so decentralized.
It has been running 24/7 365 for 15 years without a single major security issue in the protocol or a single hour of downtime. With lightning network upgrades, transactions confirm in under a second internationally with fees 1000x less than credit cards, often under a single cent.
It is accessible to anybody in the world with a cell phone and internet access, including the billions, with a B, who don’t have access to stable banking infrastructure or local currency. No credit checks, no needing six forms of ID, no overdraft fees, no bank holidays, no middlemen, no nonsense. And it does this with less electricity than you’d think, less than 1% of global electricity usage, mostly from renewable sources as miners chase the cheapest electricity and the cheapest electricity is from renewables and over-provisioned grids.
For anyone remaining in the world who still believes cryptocurrency nonsense, I have a bridge to sell you.
I agree this has got to be the root reason. They are scared.
Which is ironic because one of the Fed’s chartered purposes is to maximize employment. I guess maximizing profits is more important, even though it’s not on the list.
Yup. From an article I linked to in another comment:
The Federal Reserve Board’s ostensible policy aim is to manage the money supply and bank credit in a way that maintains price stability. That usually means fighting inflation, which is blamed entirely on “too much employment,” euphemized as “too much money.” In Congress’s more progressive days, the Fed was charged with a second objective: to promote full employment. The problem is that full employment is supposed to be inflationary – and the way to fight inflation is to reduce employment, which is viewed simplistically as being determined by the supply of credit.
So in practice, one of the Fed’s two directives has to give. And hardly by surprise, the “full employment” aim is thrown overboard – if indeed it ever was taken seriously by the Fed’s managers.
It’s an easy win for the balance sheet. Their products are still sellable, the services should be more or less unaffected (for the next few quarters), so they’ll continue to get the same revenue. But their costs just decreased, so they look more profitable.
It looks good on quarterly calls. It’s a good way to juice a stock.
Short-term profits in exchange for long-term damage!
Employees aren’t afraid anymore so companies are trying to reinstate fear.
Yes, it is a concerted effort to create a glut. This is like the wga strike, they want to starve you a little so you’ll come back begging for a job before you lose your home.
They know the next 20 year will be a shortage of labour and stagflation. They’re just trying to start this lean period with the upper hand.
Tech is hard, leaders aren’t always technical. AI is great at bullshitting, and it’s swooned many CEOs into thinking it will 10x (make them 10x more efficient than they previously were) existing employees / replace the need for programmers. Lots of leaders just look to what other leaders at companies are doing - some see what elon does at twitter as proof that downsizing drastically won’t kill your company.
Programming is like editing a book with many chapters. New developers need time to learn the story line of the book before they can begin editing anything. If the book has been around and edited continuously for over a decade, it’s going to take some time for those developers to understand the book well enough to start making meaningful contributions. Lots of these tech companies have multiple books each with many chapters, and one thing leadership either doesn’t realize or doesn’t seem to factor into the equation is that maintaining these books and all their story arcs and character development gets harder and harder over time. Truly in the tech industry, it’s more expensive to train a new hire than it is to promote an existing hire.
But again, leaders are listening to folks like elon musk…
Lots of tech companies saw huge growth during covid thanks to everyone having extra money to spend (see crypto and NFTs if you want clear examples that we just had too much laying around).
Many of these companies then saw their revenue and userbase increase month-after-month and thought the growth was going to continue forever (or, more cynically, they knew it was going to crash but acted like it was going to continue). This led to a bunch of hires to “drive growth.”
But obviously, pandemic spending habits have mostly stopped, and the money faucet is being turned off. Companies can’t afford all the workers they hired, so they’re “let go due to market downturns.”
TL;DR Companies either thought they were going to have unrealistic growth and made dumb hiring decisions, or knew the growth was going to end and thus made cruel hiring decisions.
The correction I would make is that they can afford the workers. But the leadership needs to continue the growth. All they have left is to cut expenses, and the easiest way to do that is layoffs.
Add something about the federal funds rate exceeding 2.5% for the first time since 2008 and you’re on the right track. I think interest rates affect startups more than Google so bigger tech firms were hoarding talent to prevent new competitors from having those workers.
I think interest rates affect startups more than Google so bigger tech firms
Definitely. Google has lots of cash already, whereas startups are often in need of more money.
The other thing that’s happened recently is that businesses used to be able to write off (deduct in their tax return) all their R&D expenses in the year they were incurred, whereas now they need to be amortized over five years. This has a huge impact to startups because a lot of their initial work is R&D, and now they have much larger tax bills than they used to have. https://www.axios.com/2024/01/20/taxes-irs-startups-section174
Many people got hired during Covid.
Grow isn’t as expected, so now they are firing again.
But on the bright side, most of those companies still employ more people than pre-covid.
A company hiring 19000 people isn’t going to get as many clicks as a company firing 1900 people.
Late stage capitalism
Finally. Thanks.
Overhiring during covid is definitely a major part of it, combined with a slight investment bubble bursting
I don’t like calling it overhiring as if it was accidental or something. They didn’t hire thousands of people over covid thinking covid would never end, they just knew they could pick up people to fill the role for now and kick them to the curb as soon as they weren’t needed.
It wasn’t an oopsie, it was by design.
Yeah, here in Germany, workers have stronger protections, laying them off isn’t as easy, and I feel like the layoff waves have largely not occurred here, because companies didn’t hire so much during the pandemic.
deleted by creator
Another factor was the PPP and other “totally not bailouts” that were part of the COVID relief spending.
Of the roughly $800 billion dollars from PPP which was provided as uncollateralized, low-interest loans 66-77% went directly to companies and ~92% of those loans were completely forgiven.. In other words an ~5-600M bailout predicated on keeping positions open long enough to maintain plausible deniability that is what the goal was.
They’ll give corporations all the slack and handouts but look at those trying to feed their children and scrutinize every little detail. It’s so sad.
One factor I haven’t seen mentioned is that because of rising interest rates, tech companies have had to shift from being focused on growth to actually turning a profit. Because of this, companies are having to shed employees because they over hired in anticipation of that continued growth. People are expensive so that’s an “easy” way to try to get the line closer to positive.
This is kind of a rough overview and I’m by no means an expert on economics. Just someone who works in tech and so has been following things closely.
Michael Hudson, Jun. 2022: The Fed’s Austerity Program to Reduce Wages
To Wall Street and its backers, the solution to any price inflation is to reduce wages and public social spending. The orthodox way to do this is to push the economy into recession in order to reduce hiring. Rising unemployment will oblige labor to compete for jobs that pay less and less as the economy slows.
It also takes time to realize the costs of shedding workforce, and by then you might have a different CEO. As long as it’s next quarter, it’s fine.
This plus the changes to section 174 meaning R&D costs have to be written off over five years instead of all in the year they’re incurred. That’s hurting startups a lot and many have had to switch from building new stuff to licensing/selling their existing stuff, and firing some expensive engineers/developers, to be able to afford to stay open. https://www.axios.com/2024/01/20/taxes-irs-startups-section174
Overinvestment and strong labor demand led to very high salaries. Investors hate high salaries. Firing people they can replace at a discount now that supply is increasing
Okayokayokay, this isn’t the point, I know… but those are some really shitty, ill-fitting suits. They look like crap.
I’m assuming they were provided by the photography company taking the stock photos
Actually… I see your point.
Are they made of leather, or just… super fake looking low quality fabric?
The latter, probably, given that they look identical. At first I thought: “AI”, but the fingers are pretty good. I think they’re just generic prop suits.
Tailoring makes or breaks a suit. They don’t tailor suits for stock photos.
Greed. They are making more profit than ever
Sometimes I like to think of the economy as a small village where people directly goods with each other. The invention of money means you can make a living off of selling to just one person and still have something to offer the farmer, but for this thought experiment this I want to focus on the actual, real, goods and services of the economy.
So imagine a small village. You have the farmer who grows food. You have the blacksmith who builds car parts, and the mechanic that builds cars and tractors. And you also have the village fool who makes people laugh in exchange for tips. The mechanic gives tractors to the farmers in exchange for food, and gives some of that food to the mechanic in exchange for parts. When any of them need a laugh they’ll give something to the fool to hear a joke. And you have your other industries, etc. One day a new person comes to town, who will represent the new tech industry. They realize that they can build a machine that tells the farmer the best days to plant and harvest which will help the farmer grow more food. The farmer happily accepts, paying the tech person some food in exchange. Similarly they’re able to help optimize the other industries, and with the value they’re providing and them being in short demand they’re able to get great wages.
With their prosperity, other tech people start coming to the village and helping the other industries get more efficient. Most of the concrete efficiencies are optimized, so they start working on more abstract ones. Someone builds an app to help the villagefolk find someone to trade with (“I have 2 gears but I need 3 loaves” gets matched with “I have 2 wheat bushels and need 2 gears” which gets matched with “I have 3 loaves and need 2 wheat bushels”), in exchange getting a small cut of those resources, and a larger cut if someone pays for preferential matching (advertising). Other tech people find work helping the other tech people at their jobs (IDEs, libraries, issue trackers, etc.) And other tech people build animatronic village fools to entertain the village themselves (video games).
More tech people come as they’ve heard of how much they can earn at this village. Eventually they start having some trouble finding work to do, everything seems optimized. Some of the wealthy members of the town (let’s say the farmer of the biggest field) says to many of these tech people that they’ll pay them food in exchange that the farmer gets a portion of whatever the tech person ends up earning with what they build (low interest rates). With all the good ideas used up, the projects these tech people are working on aren’t working well (crypto) or are duplicates of already existing tools (how many social media apps do we need, etc.). Still though, the farmer is giving them a lot of food so yet more tech people come to the village, and many of the children of the village (like the farmer’s son) are becoming tech workers too.
Eventually, after a bad crop season (maybe because the farmer’s son didn’t help harvest), the farmer is short on food and stops lending out food to these tech workers. They try to go around to the other villagefolk but most have already been optimized. The tools that optimized life are already built and the required tech people for maintenance is a lot less than those needed to build it, and the number of truly new opportunities to help new industries isn’t enough to provide work to all the tech people.
TL;DR
Tech people earned their crazy salaries when they were helping migrate the non-digital world to the digital world. There were so many obvious opportunities for efficiencies and not enough tech people to go around. ‘Spreadsheet’ calculations literally used to be a day-long affair with a team of people - of course a business would pay anything to a tech person to automate that. Now that times the whole economy.
These obvious efficiencies are finite but we treated them as infinite and kept training new tech workers. Low interest rates helped keep us employed for longer than we should have as we were paid to work on bad products in the hope that maybe there’d be a diamond in the rough and yet we STILL kept training new workers. Meanwhile other careers that provide more concrete value, like mechanics & HVAC professionals, have had a labour shortage as Tech attracted so many young people to itself. This eventually led to persistent inflation which then ended low interest rates. With higher interest rates a lot of speculative tech can’t get funding; Tech is only getting paid for the actual new value it can provide today, which is way less than it used to be.
ChatGPT has been quoted as a cause in at least one of the layoffs. The tech industry is specially positioned to be quickly affected by AI, but AI is going to impact 80% of the jobs on the planet within the next 8 years. Our world is about to experience a massive change to the way things are run. We can try to prepare, but it’s going to change in ways previously unimaginable.
The chatbot that’s wrong 50% of the time? That’s hard to believe.
You’re doing yourself a big disservice if you limit your understanding of AI to what you read from the opinions of Lemmings. It is incredibly powerful, and every major corporation has large investments in AI integration.
I’m not doing that at all, this is my personal experience.
Then you’re using it wrong.
Clearly the most reasonable response. Did you work for apple back in the day?
I wish!
I can’t wait to be starving
Yeah, it’s pretty scary. I don’t know what the future holds, but I think a lot of jobs are going to go the way of the vacuum tube salesman.
There’s no way capitalism and those that buy into it can responsibly use AI
True as that may be, it’s not going to stop them.
Maybe people should learn to fight for a better tomorrow instead of just trying to get through today
And how many major corporations that invested in NFTs are still doing so?
Look man, I don’t work for OpenAI, or Microsoft, or Google, or any other company that is developing their own AI. I’m not evangelizing. If you don’t want to use it, then don’t. But it’s going to affect everyone, regardless of what they think about it. If you want a leg up in the changing world, then start learning about it. Or don’t. I’m not your dad.
It doesn’t need to be right to make money, often more money than companies get by paying people to do a job properly.
… Yes, it does in the tech sector. If you’re wrong it doesn’t work.
I’ve tried the tools out. You go from writing code for an hour and debugging for half an hour to writing code for 15 minutes and debugging for three hours.
Half the time you’ve ripped out literally every bit of code the AI wrote by the time you’re done making it work.
Get better at the prompts you use. My entire team uses it daily, and it has made us probably 600% more effective. Learning to prompt AI is a valuable skill right now.
What’s your metric that you improved 600%?
Oh, I know how to prompt AI. Getting it to spit out workable code doesn’t mean you don’t have to review the code, or make sure it’s integrated correctly.
You also have to make sure it’s not generating blatantly braindead code, which makes the review and debugging cycle take longer.I remain unconvinced that it’s suitable for domains where there is a right and wrong answer, like engineering or law.
I’ve found more value in the systems that do a good job understanding the problem description and then returning references to documentation and prior art on techniques, as opposed to the actual code.
I don’t need a virtual junior dev I need to hand hold, I actually have those and mine get better. I want a virtual “person who worked on something like this once and knows the links to the good articles”.Imagine training what’s going to replace you lol
It’s going to happen regardless of what you personally do. You might as well get some benefit from it while you can.
Nah, I have standards
I mean, I can imagine it. It’s the industrial revolution all over again but Cyberpunk style.
