- cross-posted to:
- anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com
- cross-posted to:
- anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/17147012
"Sometimes people use “respect” to mean “treating someone like a person” and sometimes they use “respect” to mean “treating someone like an authority”
and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say “if you won’t respect me I won’t respect you” and they mean “if you won’t treat me like an authority I won’t treat you like a person”
and they think they’re being fair but they aren’t, and it’s not okay."
-a 15yo autistic girl experiencing ABA therapy
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This is only vaguely related, but I remember reading that anti-authoritarianism is a trait of autism. I’m an autistic anarchist, so seeing the crosspost community is fun
Yeah, I understand hierarchy but it’s only a title, you’re just a person like everyone else so fucking chill
I can understand hierarchy in systems, roles, and responsibilities. I cannot understand hierarchies in social settings. It’s not even values-related or a choice. I just don’t have the mental capacity to even see it.
I’ve been wondering for a while now whether loyalty to a group of people is a trait that is more commonly found in non-autistic people. Would explain so much.
From personal experience I’ve noticed that autistic people tend to be more loyal. But less so to caregivers who don’t care, which is too often the case
Yeah, I more meant that if they were a caregiver themselves then they would more likely call out bad caregivers, rather than just silently accept it because they don’t want to make waves.
I don’t know how much that is a stronger drive to do things right, and how much that because it might be reminding some of how we were treated.
Either way you are absolutely right
There was a blogpost posted to here a while ago that looked into that and seemed to find it true. The whole tone of it felt a bit masturbatory but it was still an interesting read, I’ll see if I can find it
Edit: I failed to find it but anyway, it’s probably the case.
My bet is that this is often the result of receiving more mistreatment than usual, or from simply being less likely to adhere to the already established social hierarchies because the social hierarchy just rejects you, which turn (pretty reasonable) attitudes that later become rationalised as anti-authoritarianism.
Pretty sure it’s more than that. The entire concept of just obeying someone “because they’re the authority” is incomprehensible to me. Give me a reason and if it makes sense I’ll do it. Otherwise if I don’t agree with it I don’t see why I should.
To me it depends on the context. In a new job, I take a humble stance and repeat to myself:
- I don’t know the full context
- I don’t know who is smart and and who isn’t
- I have my own biases
And I just work according to instructions assuming the higher up’s have a roughly good idea what they are doing.
After a few months, you can start understanding the broader context and spot some mistakes. Then you can start making suggestions.
Yea, if I don’t know the full context then I can just accept it unless I think it’s completely stupid, and then I’ll just ask. Getting the explanation also helps with understanding the processes better.
I think I most commonly notice this when it’s a movie theme, where some character is struggling with disobeying a person of authority that doesn’t actually hold significant power over them and is just an authority because of social hierarchy. It wouldn’t even cross my mind to obey them if I didn’t want to do what they’re asking, and all I can think is “why are you doing this”.
I don’t know if this has anything do to with autism either, but what you said fits the pattern for me in pretty much most of my life. For example, if a doctor gives me a prescription and tells me to take it every day, I often find it hard to keep up the habit unless I learn exactly how the drug works. Not because I don’t believe them, but more because by understanding the mechanism, of being able to see the steps of cause and effect for myself, it becomes more “real”. Like my brain more easily can see why if I want result B I must do action A. Although thinking about this is probably more relevant to long-term medications, not something like a pain killer or cough syrup, where the cause and effect are more obvious. (I hope that makes sense; I really should be in bed right now.)
Needing explanations/understanding to be willing to do things is a pretty common pattern in autistic people afaik. Doesn’t have to be autism, but it’s an autistic trait. If someone refuses to provide an explanation if I ask (provided there’s not some reason I shouldn’t know) I just get irritated and probably won’t do it out of spite.
I wonder how much of that is a reaction to not understanding rules. Since transitioning, my sister has gone into the “everyone needs to submit to God” category.
Of course, God could be the only authority and every other authority is an idol.
I put ABA in wikipedia an scrolled to the critique section.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_behavior_analysis
Not fun to read. Really not. I also looked for the cited study that reproduce these findings.
Apparently ABA has the chance to traumatise a person, induce exploitable behaviour and induce selftdestructive thoughtpatterns.
Despite that, apparetly some individuals profit from ABA.
Here is the link to the study cited in wikipedia: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/13623613221118216
Edit: Linked Wikipedia
Yep, like anything with the goal of changing behaviors it all comes down to what behaviors you’re targeting, why you’re targeting them, and how you’re planning to discourage the targeted behavior and enforce the desired replacement.
It’s great if you’re trying to change behaviors that cause the autistic person distress and interfere with them living a fulfilling and happy life, but horrible if you’re aim is to just enforce blind conformity for the sake of it.
My wife is autistic as are at least 2 of our 3 kids, with the third awaiting his own evaluation. She studied ABA in college because when you tell a woman with autism and severe OCD that actually a lot of human behavior is ordered and explainable if you understand the underlying reasons the behaviors exist she tends to jump on it to explain all of the “stupid social bullshit” she’s had to deal with all her life.
Even if there are behaviours which the autistic person wants to have fixed, aba is a bad way about going around it.
It (and conversation therapy, which is based on the same idea) are based on an outdated theory that everything is a “behaviour” and can be cured by forming habits. That is, you can cure autistic traits with practice and repetition in the same way that you can force yourself to walk every day to make that a habit.
That’s not the case; they aren’t behaviours that can be “trained away”. The “cure” should be working with the person to find effective coping strategies.
Imagine you had a broken leg, and rather than getting it put into a cast, they instead forced you to walk for a mile a day on because “not being able to walk interferes with your ability to live a fulfilling and happy life”.
Thanks for the warning and info.
I’m gonna go give myself some ABBA therapy after looking at that.
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I just read the abatracts, those are free.
Here is the wikipedia thing: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_behavior_analysis
Authority is a privilege and a responsibility, not a virtue or a right. If you are in a place of authority your life should be harder, not full of fawning sycophants that give you an ego boost.
I never thought “With great power comes great responsibility” would be a lasting principle in my life, but hell if it isn’t. I don’t have a ton of “authority”, but what I have I see as a responsibility to and for the people I delegate to, rather than the step up that some appear to view it as. Thanks, Uncle Ben.
Blam!
This is great, I think there could be a version that inverts the condition. Something like “if you won’t respect me as a person I can’t respect you as an authority”
Even so, that still sounds like a very low bar to respect someone as an authority.
It isn’t the only condition, just one of them
You could actually print this somewhere.
I’m autistic and dealt with the same behaviour. I eventually just made sure to let everyone around them know about the behaviour. Turns out even people who consider themselves an authority quickly become very nice when their peers know about their behaviour. Even better, when the world outside their org knows
Yeah I’ve lost jobs because “authority” figures wanted me to treat them like they’re special and better than everyone else and I’m like “I’ll continue to give you the respect you deserve until you start deserving more.”
Such a place probably wasn’t good for you anyways
experiencing ABA therapy
ah man made horror beyond my comprehension, perfect
I agree with that.
Could not have said that better myself.
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a 15yo autistic girl experiencing ABA therapy
You’re all acting like the relevant bit here isn’t the 15yo bit.
Adult gets frustrated with know-it-all 15yo, and does what they need to to put the kid in their place so they can do their damned job, kid comes up with bullshit rationalisation for why they’re right and everyone else is wrong once they get home, Internet echo chamber enables them, news at 11.
Yeah, the fact she’s a teenager doesn’t invalidate her perspective at all, no more than the fact she’s a woman. Teenagers DO have more insight into the injustices of society than adults who have grown comfortable with their advantages in it. Wisdom and foolishness both develop early, and only rarely do they swap with age. Her insight is wise, and it’s foolish of you to dismiss her.
Teenagers DO have more insight into the injustices of society than adults who have grown comfortable with their advantages in it.
I think you need to speak to some actual teenagers. A subset of every generation thinks they’re on a holy crusade to right the world’s wrongs, but most of them grow up.
No, most of them give up as adults. Doesn’t mean those problems disappeared. I’ve met damn few men I would consider grown up.
The 15 year olds of the world often see the hypocrisy of people and society more clearly than those who are financially or socially motivated to ignore them. Their observations are not invalidated by their age.
If someone’s job is to be an abusive authoritarian hypocrite, then they choose abusive power and financial gain over humanity. The Nuremberg defense is not valid moral shield.
This quote is almost a decade old now, and has gained recognition for its general insight countless times over. Why the naked, ageist contempt?
If someone’s job is to be an abusive authoritarian hypocrite
Jesus christ, mate, try harder. This is the shit I’m talking about.
Why the naked, ageist contempt
The contempt is for the enabling. Kids have always acted hard done by. It’s not hard to see that someone just didn’t want to take their therapist’s advice or didn’t like what they told them, played the victim card in the most vague, abstract way possible (this is the telltale sign that it’s a bullshit rationalisation), and now they’ve got a whole Internet full of maladjusted people with their own axes to grind and little genuine interest in helping anyone to reinforce their maladaptive behaviours.
My son can be a hell of a smart ass at times as all 12 year old kids can be. He’s autistic, was diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder, the whole 9. But it’s the damnedest thing, when I talk to him like he’s a person with his own agency, treat him with dignity and respect, and explain to him why I want something from him he happily hops right up and does exactly what I ask. It’s the craziest thing.
It’s not a bullshit rationalization, she’s absolutely right. And given her level of analysis, if her parents have a legit reason to ask her to fix her behavior they just have to say the actual thing instead of relying on trite bullshit.
You know the best way to get a teenager or a toddler for that matter to do something? Start by treating them like a person.
I bet you absolutely love listening to people as they refuse to treat you like a person, let alone acknowledge your bullshit rationalisation.
Try not to lick any boots on your way out.
Any credibility you had, you aborted it with that last line. Naaaah, this is totally not just some teenager who resents adults telling them what to do, and this forum is totally not just a bunch of anarkiddies circlejerking, but also we’re gunna call you a bootlicker.
Who cares if the quote is total bullshit by someone acting in bad faith if it hones the edge of the ideological axe you have to grind. Shit’s just reddit all over again.
Die mad, I guess. Probably avoid having kids in the meantime though - I can’t imagine they’d deserve you as a parent.
Die mad, I guess.
Dude, I’m getting hitler comparisons and called a boot licker for inserting the only hint of healthy skepticism into the whole damned thread. Now I’m getting fuckin’ 'u mad’s straight outta 2008. Excuses, deflections, personal attacks; as the kids say, cope harder.
(Oh and I’m not discounting the more sensible responses, it’s just there’s not a lot to say to personal anecdotes about some guy’s 12yo son.)
You’re making highly authoritarian, essentialist arguments - I can’t imagine why you’d be getting that kind of pushback.
As you double down while getting downvoted to oblivion as everyone tells you how wrong you are, I’m sure you won’t be the…
kid (that) comes up with bullshit rationalisation for why they’re right and everyone else is wrong once they get home.
You’re making highly authoritarian, essentialist arguments
Bruh, spend less time online and/or on campus, you’re turning into a moon person.
The fucking irony of someone who was on the receiving end of malpractice from a psychiatrist as a child having to state that, yes, mental health professionals are generally authorities on behavioural and cognitive issues, and yes, adults are generally authorities on most things compared to 15yos. If I can get over it, I’m sure you can - hopefully before you spit out any little undisciplined animals of your own, and make them everyone else’s problem.
As you double down while getting downvoted to oblivion as everyone tells you how wrong you are
This is an indicator of a weak mind. Popularity contests have about as much bearing as insults. At no point have any of you explained how or why my reading of the post isn’t valid, and I highly suspect the anonymous downvotes and smartarsery are because you know it is and just don’t want to think about it, either due to an overarching agenda, or because no one likes feeling like they’ve been hoodwinked.
There we have it folks.
You couldn’t help putting a nice little bow on my point, could you?
