The first part is a harder structural issue. The second is an action everyone can take now and have a greater impact towards sustaining the planet. With the side benefits of better health and less animal suffering.
If veganism was welded as a solidarity against capitalism greater market structures would be forced to bend to working class demands.
Speak for yourself, my bike has become my primary means of transportation and I’m saving up for a solar array for my house. That change can and should happen now on every level.
Speaking of structural issues: There are massive, pervasive systems in place both practically and politically surrounding the meat industry. They even get huge tax funded subsidies from the government! Using your logic, should people just give up because of it? What’s the difference?
Veganism and vegetarianism are a hard sell to many people too, encouraging people to eat more plants instead of chastising them for eating meat would probably be more effective in convincing them.
Your comment even leaves out one of the most persuasive reasons the public, at large, are hard to sway to eat less, let alone no, animal products. Our bodies are wired to have strong responses to things like the smell of cooking meat. The way grease affects the tastes of food, etc. Our bodies have long recognized indicators of edible things, that are calorie dense, as that was critical to survival for most of human existence.
Yeah, all that extra protein was a big deal to our development. It has played a critical role in our species for nearly a million years, it won’t be dropped easily.
I am not promoting it. I am recognizing it as barrier to moving people away from using animals as food. If saying something is a reason that it is hard to convert the larger public, is the same as promoting it, I am not sure how you go about discussing the hurdles to achieving this goal. The old saying “it is an explanation, not an excuse”.
Well if I take it as a serious point, I dont see still how its useful to bring it up. We can’t change our natural impulses, only how we react to them. Following a vegan diet is no more challenging physically or mentally than managing a regular diet if you have the same goals.
Its akin to saying that a mans nature makes it difficult not to sexually assault women. While technically true, it has nothing to do with identifying problems and creating solutions.
I’m struggling to find any good reason to bring up natural instinct besides as an excuse.
Except that most people get a negative physical response from hurting other people, where as very few get one from eating meat, cheese, and eggs. You have reduced something very, very, complex to an absurd degree to make your argument, in order to say talking about it is just excusing behavior. So have fun with unrealistically simplified world. You won’t be accomplishing your goal living there, though.
I am not arguing that it is good, better, etc because it is natural though. I am saying we , over ~750k years, evolved to have a strong natural reaction to indicators of things that are calorie dense, and maybe protein/nutrient dense. This makes it harder to persuade people to the better option of veganism. It isn’t the only factor, but it is definitely one.
Just because humanity has done something for a long time doesn’t mean we should continue doing it. If this isn’t an appeal to nature then look beyond it and and realize there’s plenty of other ways to to get nutrients besides supporting mass murder of other sentient beings.
If you can over come that then radicalize and realize a unified boycott of the animal agriculture industry would cripple the owning class.
Yeah no fucking shit. I was saying that this is a hurdle to getting the population at large to do something better. I didn’t say you couldn’t get nutrients without animals, I didn’t say it was better than a vegan diet, I said we are wired to have a strong response to smelling, and tasting it. We have a similar response to bread. It would also be hard to convince most people to not eat bread. I did not say we can’t, or shouldn’t, or what the fuck ever you imagined my comments said, move to a vegan dietary system.
Holy shit, putting words in my mouth. God damn, can’t even discuss things that make it difficult to persuade the general population to change, something we need to understand, if you really want to get to a point where no animals are used for food, with some vegans. Because clearly ethical concerns for animal welfare, and the sustainability of human life on earth, aren’t enough of an argument.
That’s cool I’m glad you have the means to get a house to put solar panels on. I’m also glad your able-bodied enough to get across town. Those are what’s called material conditions. People that have to use a car to get to work can easily take up a vegan diet and be more efficient at fighting climate change.
This second paragraph reads like you didn’t even read the second link.
I wondered how many flights Elon would have to do to undo your bike rides.
being vegan hasn’t decreased the size of the animal agriculture industry or even stopped it’s growth. for what reason do you think it would have any impact on the planet or animal suffering?
Literally any time I bring up veganism and climate change, I have ten people jumping my neck screaming “but the corporations!”. Like, it’s so easy to eat vegan and it’s cheaper. I don’t get people
So the thing people miss about this one is people who live out of the reduced/sale section. While at full price a vegan diet is cheaper (though requires a bit more prep time, not much more though microwave steamers are a miracle) Meat is much more calorie dense and can end up being as much as 80-90% off just before it turns, vegetables on the other hand never go on sale. In this circumstance meat is cheaper.
More regionally some of the foods in a vegan diet that make up for protein can be more expensive than you might be used to. Sure beans are universally cheap and there’s some nice varieties (I like kidney and butter beans a lot) but chickpeas, nuts and really all of the non-bean alternatives are actually pretty expensive in some places (e.g. where I live).
That said I admit to being one of these people who could maybe drop meat (I only get it when its on sale/reduction at this point) but couldn’t live without cheese and eggs. iirc chickens are the lowest carbon livestock but I await a good cheese alternative or non-dairy cheese.
I’m not sure what the situation is like wherever you live, but these past recent years there’s been a lot of progress made when it comes to vegan cheeses and egg substitutes. The cheese I’m getting is also quite affordable at Lidl (1,20€ maybe for 150g), eggs can be substituted with tofu or egg mix you just mix with water and spices, though I don’t remember how much those cost.
Also strange, I would have expected chickpeas to cost next to nothing anywhere, really. A 265g can (400g including water) costs like 70 cents maybe
Calorie dense isnt an inherently positive feature. Its what has led to high weights in america to begin with. Calorie dense just means more calories in your belly before you feel full. Are you underweight and need to pack in as much as you can when you are able to eat?
I wouldnt recommend eating that way while overweight.
thing is that you’re completely ignoring how culturally important meat is to a lot of people, and how much easier it is to cook a very tasty and nutritious meal with meat.
sure, rice and beans is cheaper, but you need to eat other things too and to most people “rice and beans” sounds like abject misery.
You can’t just say “go vegan” as if that’s just a switch you flip, the easy vegan alternatives are expensive and the cheap ones aren’t easy.
If you want people to go vegan, start producing cheap and easy vegan food that is indistinguishable from non-vegan stuff, we have a small amount of such products here and it’s helped me eat less meat.
Even if you are right that going 100% vegan is difficult for most people, going 95% vegan is not, and the impact on the climate would be nearly the same.
I’ve been a vegan for 18 years. I’m a little chubby because I can’t afford the gym lately but I haven’t taken supplements in 10+ years. Between cultured vegan yogurt, nutritional yeast, and seaweed it’s not really necessary anymore.
You literally do not need vegan meat substitutes. And if you do want or need them, there are plenty alternatives that cost pretty much the same. I can only speak for Germany, but eating meat would be plenty more expensive. Not even touching on vegetables that are super cheap compared to meat, and are way more nutritious, and don’t clog up your arteries
“Animal agriculture produces 65% of the world’s nitrous oxide emissions which has a global warming impact 296 times greater than carbon dioxide.”
Veganism would be the biggest boycott to combat climate change while still allowing workers to still go to work.
“Nearly half of the nation’s top 100 landowners are billionaires, according to publicly available data, and many include farms and ranches among their holdings.”
Extra reading
Let’s get rid of fossil fuels and eat more plants?
The first part is a harder structural issue. The second is an action everyone can take now and have a greater impact towards sustaining the planet. With the side benefits of better health and less animal suffering.
If veganism was welded as a solidarity against capitalism greater market structures would be forced to bend to working class demands.
Speak for yourself, my bike has become my primary means of transportation and I’m saving up for a solar array for my house. That change can and should happen now on every level.
Speaking of structural issues: There are massive, pervasive systems in place both practically and politically surrounding the meat industry. They even get huge tax funded subsidies from the government! Using your logic, should people just give up because of it? What’s the difference?
Veganism and vegetarianism are a hard sell to many people too, encouraging people to eat more plants instead of chastising them for eating meat would probably be more effective in convincing them.
Your comment even leaves out one of the most persuasive reasons the public, at large, are hard to sway to eat less, let alone no, animal products. Our bodies are wired to have strong responses to things like the smell of cooking meat. The way grease affects the tastes of food, etc. Our bodies have long recognized indicators of edible things, that are calorie dense, as that was critical to survival for most of human existence.
Yep, cooked meat was a game changer for our species but now it’s become a health and environmental hazard because we eat so much of it.
Yeah, all that extra protein was a big deal to our development. It has played a critical role in our species for nearly a million years, it won’t be dropped easily.
deleted by creator
I’m not sure theres reason to promote adhering to your base instincts. Do you also try to mount every woman you find attractive?
Surely you can comprehend the idea of choosing to abstain from something you have the urge to do?
I am not promoting it. I am recognizing it as barrier to moving people away from using animals as food. If saying something is a reason that it is hard to convert the larger public, is the same as promoting it, I am not sure how you go about discussing the hurdles to achieving this goal. The old saying “it is an explanation, not an excuse”.
Well if I take it as a serious point, I dont see still how its useful to bring it up. We can’t change our natural impulses, only how we react to them. Following a vegan diet is no more challenging physically or mentally than managing a regular diet if you have the same goals.
Its akin to saying that a mans nature makes it difficult not to sexually assault women. While technically true, it has nothing to do with identifying problems and creating solutions.
I’m struggling to find any good reason to bring up natural instinct besides as an excuse.
Except that most people get a negative physical response from hurting other people, where as very few get one from eating meat, cheese, and eggs. You have reduced something very, very, complex to an absurd degree to make your argument, in order to say talking about it is just excusing behavior. So have fun with unrealistically simplified world. You won’t be accomplishing your goal living there, though.
You’re argument is found here.
I am not arguing that it is good, better, etc because it is natural though. I am saying we , over ~750k years, evolved to have a strong natural reaction to indicators of things that are calorie dense, and maybe protein/nutrient dense. This makes it harder to persuade people to the better option of veganism. It isn’t the only factor, but it is definitely one.
Just because humanity has done something for a long time doesn’t mean we should continue doing it. If this isn’t an appeal to nature then look beyond it and and realize there’s plenty of other ways to to get nutrients besides supporting mass murder of other sentient beings.
If you can over come that then radicalize and realize a unified boycott of the animal agriculture industry would cripple the owning class.
Yeah no fucking shit. I was saying that this is a hurdle to getting the population at large to do something better. I didn’t say you couldn’t get nutrients without animals, I didn’t say it was better than a vegan diet, I said we are wired to have a strong response to smelling, and tasting it. We have a similar response to bread. It would also be hard to convince most people to not eat bread. I did not say we can’t, or shouldn’t, or what the fuck ever you imagined my comments said, move to a vegan dietary system.
Holy shit, putting words in my mouth. God damn, can’t even discuss things that make it difficult to persuade the general population to change, something we need to understand, if you really want to get to a point where no animals are used for food, with some vegans. Because clearly ethical concerns for animal welfare, and the sustainability of human life on earth, aren’t enough of an argument.
That’s cool I’m glad you have the means to get a house to put solar panels on. I’m also glad your able-bodied enough to get across town. Those are what’s called material conditions. People that have to use a car to get to work can easily take up a vegan diet and be more efficient at fighting climate change.
This second paragraph reads like you didn’t even read the second link.
I wondered how many flights Elon would have to do to undo your bike rides.
Your defeatist attitude is presumptuous bullshit bud
Your ableist attitude is adorable dude.
Keep on making presumtions but I won’t be reading them.
11 tons of C02 emissions 3 hours ago from NY to Tennessee
For a round trip commute of 10 miles, or 16 km, commuting 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year, this results in saving about 700 kg CO2e
You and me have more in common then either of us well ever have with Elon.
being vegan hasn’t decreased the size of the animal agriculture industry or even stopped it’s growth. for what reason do you think it would have any impact on the planet or animal suffering?
Absolute numbers vs percentages my friend. Populations increase, absolute numbers increase, but what happens with the percent of the whole?
the industry has ceaseless growth.
Growth itself can increase or decrease, you are aware of this right?
it’s still not less suffering or GHG/pollution, only more.
Give up cheese… Or die…
Sometimes sacrifices must be made. It is a shame though, this planet is pretty.
After even 100+ hours in no mans sky. Earth is the most beautiful planet I’ve ever been to.
Literally any time I bring up veganism and climate change, I have ten people jumping my neck screaming “but the corporations!”. Like, it’s so easy to eat vegan and it’s cheaper. I don’t get people
So the thing people miss about this one is people who live out of the reduced/sale section. While at full price a vegan diet is cheaper (though requires a bit more prep time, not much more though microwave steamers are a miracle) Meat is much more calorie dense and can end up being as much as 80-90% off just before it turns, vegetables on the other hand never go on sale. In this circumstance meat is cheaper.
More regionally some of the foods in a vegan diet that make up for protein can be more expensive than you might be used to. Sure beans are universally cheap and there’s some nice varieties (I like kidney and butter beans a lot) but chickpeas, nuts and really all of the non-bean alternatives are actually pretty expensive in some places (e.g. where I live).
That said I admit to being one of these people who could maybe drop meat (I only get it when its on sale/reduction at this point) but couldn’t live without cheese and eggs. iirc chickens are the lowest carbon livestock but I await a good cheese alternative or non-dairy cheese.
I’m not sure what the situation is like wherever you live, but these past recent years there’s been a lot of progress made when it comes to vegan cheeses and egg substitutes. The cheese I’m getting is also quite affordable at Lidl (1,20€ maybe for 150g), eggs can be substituted with tofu or egg mix you just mix with water and spices, though I don’t remember how much those cost.
Also strange, I would have expected chickpeas to cost next to nothing anywhere, really. A 265g can (400g including water) costs like 70 cents maybe
Calorie dense isnt an inherently positive feature. Its what has led to high weights in america to begin with. Calorie dense just means more calories in your belly before you feel full. Are you underweight and need to pack in as much as you can when you are able to eat?
I wouldnt recommend eating that way while overweight.
The time you use prepping meat could easily be applied to prepping a vegan alternative.
“When scientists like me advocate for healthy and environmentally-friendly eating, it’s often said we’re sitting in our ivory towers promoting something financially out of reach for most people. This study shows it’s quite the opposite. These diets could be better for your bank balance as well as for your health and…the planet.”
I feel like the twitter post addresses the last issue.
thing is that you’re completely ignoring how culturally important meat is to a lot of people, and how much easier it is to cook a very tasty and nutritious meal with meat.
sure, rice and beans is cheaper, but you need to eat other things too and to most people “rice and beans” sounds like abject misery.
You can’t just say “go vegan” as if that’s just a switch you flip, the easy vegan alternatives are expensive and the cheap ones aren’t easy.
If you want people to go vegan, start producing cheap and easy vegan food that is indistinguishable from non-vegan stuff, we have a small amount of such products here and it’s helped me eat less meat.
Even if you are right that going 100% vegan is difficult for most people, going 95% vegan is not, and the impact on the climate would be nearly the same.
Not to mention it’s only barely more sustainable than Breatharianism unless you’re taking a ton of supplements.
I’ve been a vegan for 18 years. I’m a little chubby because I can’t afford the gym lately but I haven’t taken supplements in 10+ years. Between cultured vegan yogurt, nutritional yeast, and seaweed it’s not really necessary anymore.
You literally do not need vegan meat substitutes. And if you do want or need them, there are plenty alternatives that cost pretty much the same. I can only speak for Germany, but eating meat would be plenty more expensive. Not even touching on vegetables that are super cheap compared to meat, and are way more nutritious, and don’t clog up your arteries
congratulations on literally just ignoring what i wrote and instead just preaching about your own superiority!
“The same way a culture can be created, it can be altered or removed completely as well. Slavery is one cultural norm that has been legally abolished across the whole world.”