All this does is make me more interested in “pirating” their infinitely copyable material. More to the point it’s making my interest in financially supporting them drop to zero if not lower.
With Usenet, Plex* (Streaming Server), Radarr (automated movie downloading) and Sonarr (automated TV downloading and management) it’s never been easier!
*Plex is currently on a slow path of enshittification and the only other good alternative, Jellyfin, still has some ways to go before it can pass “The Spouse Test”. I myself have only had Jellyfin in testing and not yet replaced Plex with it. But that day is coming. Jellyfin is well under active development and I have no doubt it will get to feature and stability parity with Plex
I’m not worried about SSL. I’m worried about a rapidly developed open source project with lots of changes and lots of cooks in the kitchen. All it takes is a buffer overflow and one of a thousand libraries they’re using. I don’t know that they have a dedicated security team or even anyone really looking at that.
I wouldn’t be so worried but it needs to have access to my media which is outside of my DMZ.
I have tailscale at home I could use an exit node. My family doesn’t want ad blocking because then they don’t get their ads for their free to play games.
Honestly the biggest reason not to use VPN home for everything as every time you swap cell phone towers your IP changes and you renegotiate. It’s not so bad when I’m using something that buffers, so it’s also not so bad when I’m driving, but when a passengers loading a website or playing a game with ads and the ads which are already 30 seconds take an extra 30 seconds to load they get all grumpy.
It’s good thinking though I have totally tried to sell people on that
I am constantly connected to my VPN at home if my iPhone is not connected to a WiFi in white list, and I use an IP white list, including DNS, to go through the tunnel and I play no adware games 😂I guess that is why it works so well for me.
But nice to know why VPN on phone behaves like it does if you route everything through it. I think have experienced that before, when I forgot to disable the third party VPN I use to spoof location.
The VPN keeps a constant network connection open. It’s job isn’t just to encrypt the traffic and route the traffic home but also to make sure that there’s no man in the middle activity going on.
Each cell phone tower you are connected to provides you with a new IP. In most cases cell phone towers are less than 2 miles apart. While you’re driving or taking a train or just about any other form of transportation that means you’re going to change IP addresses every couple of minutes. If you’re not connected to a VPN it’s a couple dozen milliseconds to change that IP and start talking to a new tower. But once you throw VPN in the mix your VPN says hey you’re IP changed sorry we need to renegotiate. You send your SSL key up and you’re off It checks it against your SSL key and the other side and rebuilds a new connection. In the best of circumstances this goes pretty quickly. But not quickly enough for certain tasks. Buffering video is fine. Remote screen connections, SSH terminals, anything else that’s extremely on demand underperforms horribly.
After looking at this list I’d like to pre-qualify what I’m about to say: I have jellyfin and like it, I use jellyfin regularly. I have it pointed to the same catalog as Plex and if Plex ever gets thoroughly enshitified I will leave it for jellyfin
The biggest things I’ve seen (in decreasing order of pain):
transcoding can fail on media that Plex has no problems with
Jellyfin is significantly worse at detecting names and properly assigning metadata. Jellyfin does not have the same ease of fixing that when it happens that Plex has.
I’m not going to go through all the work to reverse proxy it. Nor do I trust opening it to the internet. So for her to access it outside the house she’s going to be using tailscale. Kind of just extra steps for the sake of extra steps.
Finamp is a poor replacement for Plexamp, Don’t get me wrong I love the fan project but it’s not anywhere near as good, and it becomes quite painful to use on large audio catalogs.
The Roku client doesn’t have any method to mark things as watched or unwatched or modified playlisted items.
I dislike the sections being static one row high and then having to rotate left and right through multiple things when they could just wrap.
I am super amazed that the project runs as well as it does. It’s a monumental piece of open source work, but there’s a lot of polish problems and I’m not qualified to help them fix them.
Edit: oh and I really really miss these skip intro Skip credits option that Plex has.
Quick notes from an avid jellyfin user. When you have a show or movie or whatever you want, not get identified, there’s a simple identify option you can do on the client on a computer or phone by clicking the 3 dots on the media. You get to search and label it. The only time this hasn’t appropriately assigned metadata for me was for shows with duplicate episodes in one mkv or whatever. That did take a lot of renaming, which did suck and is reasonable to not want to have to do. Especially for massive libraries.
I definitely agree about the roku client not having a marked as watched feature, that should be added.
There’s a lot of work to be done but it’s not just being done in the basic edition. For instance, there’s plugins that allow the skip credits and skip intro functions you want. And there’s ones for fanart, and allowing other databases of Metadata to select from. There’s a lot of plugins and more are being actively developed rather often. Even I’m trying to develop a “continue watching” feature like from Netflix, but it’s going slowly.
Jellyfin definitely takes more finagling than plex, i switched at the beginning of the year, but I’ve had multiple times since where my internet is out and because jellyfin is local network I’m still able to stream my media.
So yeah. Just some info about jellyfin. I get wanting the ease of plex, but I’ve personally really enjoyed adding the plugins and fucking around with everything it has.
Just general glitchiness, odd UI design choices etc. Def needs more polish
When I say Spouse Test I mean from the context of a spouse who just “doesn’t do computers”, if your spouse is technically inclined at all, say as a PC gamer or something and has dealt with sometimes-kinda-annoying software and has some patience, then they’ll probably be fine with it
This makes sense. I had to poke around the UI to figure it out. And, the client occasionally needs rebooted or the cache cleared. I can see how some users would have trouble.
I’d suggest that teaching those users is probably easier than setting up Plex today and then setting up Jellyfin as an emergency service when Plex inevitably begins ad injection or introduces a paywall for local streaming.
I dipped my toes in the self-hosted route and would recommend Stremio + Torrentio + RealDebrid as a much simpler alternative.
Here’s a guide I used - you can probably have it up and running in less than an hour.
Major points:
Easy setup, easy to use
Low cost at <$35/year
Can not share accounts (specifically, RD limits to one ongoing stream at a time)
Limited customization
I have very limited self hosting experience, and between getting my first hello world service running, problems with my ISP, sorting through the different ways to get content, and not already having TBs if hard drives sitting around, I found it to be pretty challenging.
If you’re already experienced in self hosting (or want to learn) and don’t mind the storage costs, then I’d recommend the Plex/Jellyfin route, but if you just want an alternative to the existing streaming services then I’d suggest looking into Stremio.
Seconded. I’ve used this exact setup for years on an NVIDIA Shield Pro. I understand it isn’t “pure” from a piracy perspective, not the most ideal, in-the-weeds setup, but it sure does just work.
You can always use the older, well established, actively developed, and stable project that Jellyfin is built from; Emby. (Jellyfin is literally Embys code from 10+ years ago)
Yea no. FUCK Emby and their bullshit, Emby is the next Plex and not in a good way. I was there 10 years ago when Jellyfin split off, so AFAIC there are only 2 viable streaming software, Plex and Jellyfin. Emby is dead to me.
I found/started using personal streaming solutions around 8 years ago; so post-Emby/MediaBrowser split into Jellyfin.
While I started with Plex, I very quickly came to despise their always online/centralized authentication system and moved to Emby as the only alternative I’d seen/heard of at the time. From there I learned of Jellyfin and (at least some of) it’s origins; though I’ve had 0 reason/need/desire to actually install Jellyfin as Emby works fantastically.
I’ve been really quite happy with Emby; particularly with their stance of not tracking/collecting userdata and maintaining Emby as a private company focused on their customers instead of investors/partners. I understand some people don’t like the Premiere licensing model they use; but I think it’s a good way for the developers to ensure stable income for their work; and TBH, especially with the lifetime purchase option, I think it’s undervalued. Unfortunately that model is not compatible with opensource (as users just fork it to remove the paywall), which is why Jellyfin exists from what I understand.
This is going to go back quite a ways, and much of my knowledge is old at this point so some details might be off.
~15 years ago Plex as we know it started out as an OSX fork of the 0G Xbox homebrew software XBMC (Later renamed Kodi (For those who don’t know, XBMC was XBox Media Center and would turn the 0g Xbox into the cheapest Home Theater PC you could get at the time, man those were the days lol))
Plex was only briefly open source and then was quickly closed when they incorporated a year or so after they had something functional. They never made any promises about not charging or being open source or anything, so that’s why I’m generally fine with Plex
Sometime around 2012ish Emby came along as THE open source alternative to Plex and things were good. MOST of it was supposed to stay open source as was promised. From the beginning they kept build scripts n such closed source, probably should have caught on them, but heh ya know hindsight and all that.
Then around 2014/5 they took it all closed source, relicensed it and introduced their paywall including locking away already existing features. This is what pissed me and many others off and this is when and why Jellyfin split off promising to be truly fully open source forever. (There was a ton of drama about it at the time, but it looks like Embys Q&A thing a bit back doesn’t even bother to mention it, imagine that lol)
I don’t have a problem with subscriptions on open source software myself, but the way they went about it…yea. fuck em
I don’t have a problem with subscriptions on open source software myself
That’s kind of the root of the issue imo; having a subscription based model doesn’t really work with open source as the project just gets forked every release to remove the subscription.
This leaves Emby with little option but to go closed source if they want income through subscriptions.
So, I’m not sure I understand what you mean with ‘the way they went about it’. Is it the subscription you had an issue with, or the fact that they were no longer open source?
What would you have done differently?
And, if you don’t mind me asking: Had you supported (paid) Embys developers prior to them shifting to closed source + ‘Emby Premiere’?
To be clear, I’m not trying to be argumentative or divisive; I’m just trying to understand the animosity towards Emby and why it’s so often left out of the conversation, so to speak. It’s something I’ve never been able to wrap my head around. Thanks for taking the time to chat about this.
having a subscription based model doesn’t really work with open source
It certainly can work, typically, not a whole lot of users would be capable of “just forking it and bypass the paywall”. And of them, most (including myself) would rather just pay up (especially for quality software). Most of those remaining might just not be able to afford it, and probably wouldn’t pay anyways (Your statement is, essentially, the same that giant corporations use against piracy). The actual rude/asshole users would be what’s left, a small minority of a minority.
Is it the subscription you had an issue with, or the fact that they were no longer open source?
What would you have done differently?
The fact of going closed source, especially after making statements saying they would pretty much keep it open source (Note: this part of my memory is iffy on this, this could have been just a forum/reddit post/reply from a core dev or something (I would still be pissed about it going closed regardless, because it’s actually written in one of my preferred languages, C# :/))
There are definitely a few different monetization options, they could
have just done a subscription and kindly asked those with the means financially and technically to refrain from bypassing it (gamevau.lt does this I know for sure, how well it works out for them is…TBD, kinda young project but really cool to checkout if you’re a gamer)
Write a closed source plugin that would house their closed source premium options, or write each premium feature as a plugin, so intro skipping could be a plugin you just buy on their web store for example
Do subscriptions for support packages or maybe even hosting
Have a community, open source branch and a premium closed source branch like pfSense does
Problem is, they sought little input if any from the community, just announced it as a “we’re doing this and that’s it”. No trial runs of alternative plans, surveys or anything. Which they have that right as project owners, but it doesn’t make it any less a rude thing to do
And, if you don’t mind me asking: Had you supported (paid) Embys developers prior to them shifting to closed source + ‘Emby Premiere’?
I’m fairly certain I didn’t, pretty sure they announced it and going closed source and then I began bailing to Plex once I saw their response.
Having been off the scene for a while, I didn’t know Jellyfin actually came from XBMC, that’s interesting… So with Kodi and Jellyfin on my TV, I have two descendants of the same code, cool.
I loved my original Xbox with a 400gb HDD and movies and games backed up to the disk! My friends did too.
All this does is make me more interested in “pirating” their infinitely copyable material. More to the point it’s making my interest in financially supporting them drop to zero if not lower.
With Usenet, Plex* (Streaming Server), Radarr (automated movie downloading) and Sonarr (automated TV downloading and management) it’s never been easier!
*Plex is currently on a slow path of enshittification and the only other good alternative, Jellyfin, still has some ways to go before it can pass “The Spouse Test”. I myself have only had Jellyfin in testing and not yet replaced Plex with it. But that day is coming. Jellyfin is well under active development and I have no doubt it will get to feature and stability parity with Plex
Jellyfin pased my spouse test for local network.
I put her on tailscale for remote access but she’s not a big fan of that.
Is it not safe to expose externally with ssl yet?
I’m not worried about SSL. I’m worried about a rapidly developed open source project with lots of changes and lots of cooks in the kitchen. All it takes is a buffer overflow and one of a thousand libraries they’re using. I don’t know that they have a dedicated security team or even anyone really looking at that.
I wouldn’t be so worried but it needs to have access to my media which is outside of my DMZ.
And I don’t want to put my media into my DMZ.
I put through the reverse proxy and so far I haven’t had any issues
Why not having your own wireguard endpoint at home? Then you could additionally filter ads using adguard at home and on the go.
I have tailscale at home I could use an exit node. My family doesn’t want ad blocking because then they don’t get their ads for their free to play games.
Honestly the biggest reason not to use VPN home for everything as every time you swap cell phone towers your IP changes and you renegotiate. It’s not so bad when I’m using something that buffers, so it’s also not so bad when I’m driving, but when a passengers loading a website or playing a game with ads and the ads which are already 30 seconds take an extra 30 seconds to load they get all grumpy.
It’s good thinking though I have totally tried to sell people on that
I am constantly connected to my VPN at home if my iPhone is not connected to a WiFi in white list, and I use an IP white list, including DNS, to go through the tunnel and I play no adware games 😂I guess that is why it works so well for me.
But nice to know why VPN on phone behaves like it does if you route everything through it. I think have experienced that before, when I forgot to disable the third party VPN I use to spoof location.
The VPN keeps a constant network connection open. It’s job isn’t just to encrypt the traffic and route the traffic home but also to make sure that there’s no man in the middle activity going on.
Each cell phone tower you are connected to provides you with a new IP. In most cases cell phone towers are less than 2 miles apart. While you’re driving or taking a train or just about any other form of transportation that means you’re going to change IP addresses every couple of minutes. If you’re not connected to a VPN it’s a couple dozen milliseconds to change that IP and start talking to a new tower. But once you throw VPN in the mix your VPN says hey you’re IP changed sorry we need to renegotiate. You send your SSL key up and you’re off It checks it against your SSL key and the other side and rebuilds a new connection. In the best of circumstances this goes pretty quickly. But not quickly enough for certain tasks. Buffering video is fine. Remote screen connections, SSH terminals, anything else that’s extremely on demand underperforms horribly.
Same, mine passed the test. But used only locally.
Same. Wish the world had already adopted ipv6
That is a meme by now😂do it!
Where’s Jellyfin failing the spouse test? My spouse preferred it to Plex because she could turn off all the crap on the home screen.
After looking at this list I’d like to pre-qualify what I’m about to say: I have jellyfin and like it, I use jellyfin regularly. I have it pointed to the same catalog as Plex and if Plex ever gets thoroughly enshitified I will leave it for jellyfin
The biggest things I’ve seen (in decreasing order of pain):
transcoding can fail on media that Plex has no problems with
Jellyfin is significantly worse at detecting names and properly assigning metadata. Jellyfin does not have the same ease of fixing that when it happens that Plex has.
I’m not going to go through all the work to reverse proxy it. Nor do I trust opening it to the internet. So for her to access it outside the house she’s going to be using tailscale. Kind of just extra steps for the sake of extra steps.
Finamp is a poor replacement for Plexamp, Don’t get me wrong I love the fan project but it’s not anywhere near as good, and it becomes quite painful to use on large audio catalogs.
The Roku client doesn’t have any method to mark things as watched or unwatched or modified playlisted items.
I dislike the sections being static one row high and then having to rotate left and right through multiple things when they could just wrap.
I am super amazed that the project runs as well as it does. It’s a monumental piece of open source work, but there’s a lot of polish problems and I’m not qualified to help them fix them.
Edit: oh and I really really miss these skip intro Skip credits option that Plex has.
Quick notes from an avid jellyfin user. When you have a show or movie or whatever you want, not get identified, there’s a simple identify option you can do on the client on a computer or phone by clicking the 3 dots on the media. You get to search and label it. The only time this hasn’t appropriately assigned metadata for me was for shows with duplicate episodes in one mkv or whatever. That did take a lot of renaming, which did suck and is reasonable to not want to have to do. Especially for massive libraries.
I definitely agree about the roku client not having a marked as watched feature, that should be added.
There’s a lot of work to be done but it’s not just being done in the basic edition. For instance, there’s plugins that allow the skip credits and skip intro functions you want. And there’s ones for fanart, and allowing other databases of Metadata to select from. There’s a lot of plugins and more are being actively developed rather often. Even I’m trying to develop a “continue watching” feature like from Netflix, but it’s going slowly.
Jellyfin definitely takes more finagling than plex, i switched at the beginning of the year, but I’ve had multiple times since where my internet is out and because jellyfin is local network I’m still able to stream my media.
So yeah. Just some info about jellyfin. I get wanting the ease of plex, but I’ve personally really enjoyed adding the plugins and fucking around with everything it has.
I want to go and look at the plugins I wasn’t aware that some of that stuff was available. I was an avid plug-in user until Plex pulled that from me.
Just general glitchiness, odd UI design choices etc. Def needs more polish
When I say Spouse Test I mean from the context of a spouse who just “doesn’t do computers”, if your spouse is technically inclined at all, say as a PC gamer or something and has dealt with sometimes-kinda-annoying software and has some patience, then they’ll probably be fine with it
This makes sense. I had to poke around the UI to figure it out. And, the client occasionally needs rebooted or the cache cleared. I can see how some users would have trouble.
I’d suggest that teaching those users is probably easier than setting up Plex today and then setting up Jellyfin as an emergency service when Plex inevitably begins ad injection or introduces a paywall for local streaming.
I dipped my toes in the self-hosted route and would recommend Stremio + Torrentio + RealDebrid as a much simpler alternative.
Here’s a guide I used - you can probably have it up and running in less than an hour.
Major points:
I have very limited self hosting experience, and between getting my first hello world service running, problems with my ISP, sorting through the different ways to get content, and not already having TBs if hard drives sitting around, I found it to be pretty challenging.
If you’re already experienced in self hosting (or want to learn) and don’t mind the storage costs, then I’d recommend the Plex/Jellyfin route, but if you just want an alternative to the existing streaming services then I’d suggest looking into Stremio.
Seconded. I’ve used this exact setup for years on an NVIDIA Shield Pro. I understand it isn’t “pure” from a piracy perspective, not the most ideal, in-the-weeds setup, but it sure does just work.
You can always use the older, well established, actively developed, and stable project that Jellyfin is built from; Emby. (Jellyfin is literally Embys code from 10+ years ago)
Yea no. FUCK Emby and their bullshit, Emby is the next Plex and not in a good way. I was there 10 years ago when Jellyfin split off, so AFAIC there are only 2 viable streaming software, Plex and Jellyfin. Emby is dead to me.
I’m curious to know why you think/feel that way.
I found/started using personal streaming solutions around 8 years ago; so post-Emby/MediaBrowser split into Jellyfin.
While I started with Plex, I very quickly came to despise their always online/centralized authentication system and moved to Emby as the only alternative I’d seen/heard of at the time. From there I learned of Jellyfin and (at least some of) it’s origins; though I’ve had 0 reason/need/desire to actually install Jellyfin as Emby works fantastically.
I’ve been really quite happy with Emby; particularly with their stance of not tracking/collecting userdata and maintaining Emby as a private company focused on their customers instead of investors/partners. I understand some people don’t like the Premiere licensing model they use; but I think it’s a good way for the developers to ensure stable income for their work; and TBH, especially with the lifetime purchase option, I think it’s undervalued. Unfortunately that model is not compatible with opensource (as users just fork it to remove the paywall), which is why Jellyfin exists from what I understand.
This is going to go back quite a ways, and much of my knowledge is old at this point so some details might be off.
~15 years ago Plex as we know it started out as an OSX fork of the 0G Xbox homebrew software XBMC (Later renamed Kodi (For those who don’t know, XBMC was XBox Media Center and would turn the 0g Xbox into the cheapest Home Theater PC you could get at the time, man those were the days lol))
Plex was only briefly open source and then was quickly closed when they incorporated a year or so after they had something functional. They never made any promises about not charging or being open source or anything, so that’s why I’m generally fine with Plex
Sometime around 2012ish Emby came along as THE open source alternative to Plex and things were good. MOST of it was supposed to stay open source as was promised. From the beginning they kept build scripts n such closed source, probably should have caught on them, but heh ya know hindsight and all that.
Then around 2014/5 they took it all closed source, relicensed it and introduced their paywall including locking away already existing features. This is what pissed me and many others off and this is when and why Jellyfin split off promising to be truly fully open source forever. (There was a ton of drama about it at the time, but it looks like Embys Q&A thing a bit back doesn’t even bother to mention it, imagine that lol)
I don’t have a problem with subscriptions on open source software myself, but the way they went about it…yea. fuck em
That’s kind of the root of the issue imo; having a subscription based model doesn’t really work with open source as the project just gets forked every release to remove the subscription.
This leaves Emby with little option but to go closed source if they want income through subscriptions.
So, I’m not sure I understand what you mean with ‘the way they went about it’. Is it the subscription you had an issue with, or the fact that they were no longer open source? What would you have done differently?
And, if you don’t mind me asking: Had you supported (paid) Embys developers prior to them shifting to closed source + ‘Emby Premiere’?
To be clear, I’m not trying to be argumentative or divisive; I’m just trying to understand the animosity towards Emby and why it’s so often left out of the conversation, so to speak. It’s something I’ve never been able to wrap my head around. Thanks for taking the time to chat about this.
It certainly can work, typically, not a whole lot of users would be capable of “just forking it and bypass the paywall”. And of them, most (including myself) would rather just pay up (especially for quality software). Most of those remaining might just not be able to afford it, and probably wouldn’t pay anyways (Your statement is, essentially, the same that giant corporations use against piracy). The actual rude/asshole users would be what’s left, a small minority of a minority.
The fact of going closed source, especially after making statements saying they would pretty much keep it open source (Note: this part of my memory is iffy on this, this could have been just a forum/reddit post/reply from a core dev or something (I would still be pissed about it going closed regardless, because it’s actually written in one of my preferred languages, C# :/))
There are definitely a few different monetization options, they could
have just done a subscription and kindly asked those with the means financially and technically to refrain from bypassing it (gamevau.lt does this I know for sure, how well it works out for them is…TBD, kinda young project but really cool to checkout if you’re a gamer)
Write a closed source plugin that would house their closed source premium options, or write each premium feature as a plugin, so intro skipping could be a plugin you just buy on their web store for example
Do subscriptions for support packages or maybe even hosting
Have a community, open source branch and a premium closed source branch like pfSense does
Problem is, they sought little input if any from the community, just announced it as a “we’re doing this and that’s it”. No trial runs of alternative plans, surveys or anything. Which they have that right as project owners, but it doesn’t make it any less a rude thing to do
I’m fairly certain I didn’t, pretty sure they announced it and going closed source and then I began bailing to Plex once I saw their response.
Having been off the scene for a while, I didn’t know Jellyfin actually came from XBMC, that’s interesting… So with Kodi and Jellyfin on my TV, I have two descendants of the same code, cool.
I loved my original Xbox with a 400gb HDD and movies and games backed up to the disk! My friends did too.