Meme about bees being animals or not, to know if honey fit the rules for veganism. No discussions about the well being of bees, the environmental impact of beekeeping, or anything else was present. Only if it followed a rule or not
I find this ridiculous - it’s lost the plot. Being vegan isn’t some cosmic good - the farming industry is horrible in numerous ways, but bees cannot be battery farmed.
Industrial honey production requires large untamed fields of wildflowers, which I consider good. Bees are good pollinators, I consider them good. Bees are dying out due to unrelated human activity, which is bad. Honey production requires more bees, and harming the delicate insects is disincentivized by nature - the well being of the bees is required for honey production
I then made it clear I was operating under my own moral framework, which from what I know of beekeeping (and I could be missing information), judges beekeeping as a good thing
I then alluded to my own moral framework, which recognizes that to live, the suffering of life is required. We are animals, and while we can minimize the suffering, we can’t live without it. Damage to the environment causes more suffering to life than anything else, so it’s the priority
Then you asked if I was already vegan, I said no. I explained that I eat little animal products, ethically sourced when practical. You took that opportunity to say I should do more - but by eating meat rarely I reduce the meat consumption of others easily, doing far more to further what should be our shared goals than I ever could individually
I don’t need or want praise for my eating habits - I want my habits to spread. I want as many people to do what they can when they can - that’s all I ask of others, and that messaging works. I’ll tell them it saves money if that’s their concern, I’ll tell them of the horrors of the meat industry in passing, I’ll tell them about how obesity is unnatural and result of highly processed foods, or the health implications. I tell them what will resonate with them, without judgement.
I know my goals, and I’m using the best methods I have available to spread them. I’m not confused at all - I know my goals, I’m conscious of my choices. I’m deliberate in my words and actions.
Our goals are mostly aligned, and yet I believe your messaging undermines mine. Our goals require collective action. You demand more of me under your moral framework, yet I feel no understanding from you, you’ve offered no new information, only judgement. Why is that?
Because I’ve never actually tried to convince you, or praise veganism, or do any of the things you’d like to argue against to begin with. You are arguing against an army of strawmen.
Then you should definitely go vegan. A vegan diet comes with the least amount of plant deaths and plant suffering, since lifestock is being fed with billions of individual plants before being slaughtered. You can save all of them.
Sounds like there is still some room for improvement in terms of “eating as sustainably as they can” then.
What is your goal, and what are your methods to get there?
You genuinely asking yourself that means far more to me than winning some Internet argument. Our goals are mostly aligned - I want you and your movement to succeed. But your methods push our shared goals further away.
Ok, I’ll draw the through line for you
Meme about bees being animals or not, to know if honey fit the rules for veganism. No discussions about the well being of bees, the environmental impact of beekeeping, or anything else was present. Only if it followed a rule or not
I find this ridiculous - it’s lost the plot. Being vegan isn’t some cosmic good - the farming industry is horrible in numerous ways, but bees cannot be battery farmed.
Industrial honey production requires large untamed fields of wildflowers, which I consider good. Bees are good pollinators, I consider them good. Bees are dying out due to unrelated human activity, which is bad. Honey production requires more bees, and harming the delicate insects is disincentivized by nature - the well being of the bees is required for honey production
I then made it clear I was operating under my own moral framework, which from what I know of beekeeping (and I could be missing information), judges beekeeping as a good thing
I then alluded to my own moral framework, which recognizes that to live, the suffering of life is required. We are animals, and while we can minimize the suffering, we can’t live without it. Damage to the environment causes more suffering to life than anything else, so it’s the priority
Then you asked if I was already vegan, I said no. I explained that I eat little animal products, ethically sourced when practical. You took that opportunity to say I should do more - but by eating meat rarely I reduce the meat consumption of others easily, doing far more to further what should be our shared goals than I ever could individually
I don’t need or want praise for my eating habits - I want my habits to spread. I want as many people to do what they can when they can - that’s all I ask of others, and that messaging works. I’ll tell them it saves money if that’s their concern, I’ll tell them of the horrors of the meat industry in passing, I’ll tell them about how obesity is unnatural and result of highly processed foods, or the health implications. I tell them what will resonate with them, without judgement.
I know my goals, and I’m using the best methods I have available to spread them. I’m not confused at all - I know my goals, I’m conscious of my choices. I’m deliberate in my words and actions.
Our goals are mostly aligned, and yet I believe your messaging undermines mine. Our goals require collective action. You demand more of me under your moral framework, yet I feel no understanding from you, you’ve offered no new information, only judgement. Why is that?
Because I’ve never actually tried to convince you, or praise veganism, or do any of the things you’d like to argue against to begin with. You are arguing against an army of strawmen.
What is your goal, and what are your methods to get there?
You genuinely asking yourself that means far more to me than winning some Internet argument. Our goals are mostly aligned - I want you and your movement to succeed. But your methods push our shared goals further away.
It’s frustrating.
I wanted to show that your argument is stupid. That’s it, really.