i can’t even guess as to why they went quiet. not one guess at all. we will never know.
edit: well they’re not quiet now once they get called out
There sure are a lot of people trying to blame the left because their strategy of appealing to the middle failed.
Well yeah, otherwise they’d have to consider actually changing their shit strategy
Even after all this the DNC are already bowing down to the fascist position because they lost because they were “too woke”.
This is when the democrats were already running a far right platform of “we want to fund the police, not defund them”, following Trump’s border policy, “most lethal army”, “Israel must expand its borders”, “I’ll have a Republican in my cabinet”. And they weren’t “woke” at all. Kamala threw trans people in the trash saying “we’ll follow the law” when it comes to trans issues. It was the Republicans who were running hundreds of millions of dollars worth of attack ads on trans people and democrats weren’t saying shit.
The DNC have once again failed to learn and are looking for a “centrist” chair, doing exactly the same thing of shutting down leftist voices and trying to appeal to and compromise with the fascists instead of listening to people like Bernie and AOC.
You’d think after they utterly failed and managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and get an out and proud fascist elected they would finally learn that they need to address the real issues that affect all working class people.
The ratchet effect is real.
The Republican critique of the democrats is kind of right in a way in that they are just the same rich people not doing anything about the cost of living and only using identity politics to “virtue signal”. They’re right wingers with rainbow flags. That doesn’t do much for oppressed minorities except make us the target of attacks. What would benefit queer and other oppressed minorities more is build a society in which we can afford homes to live in, food to eat, access to healthcare. But they want to make it all about pronouns because that is easy for them to look like they’re someone “on the left”, when economically they’re not on the left at all.
There’s really no hope with the DNC. We just need to organize in our own communities because the democrats certainly aren’t coming to save anyone.
they need to address the real issues that affect all working class people.
But of course this would mean clawing back some concessions from the capitalist class, and they own both parties, so…nope.
The so called rachet effect is because the left never shows up, so the Dems go to the center to find voters. The left doesn’t like this so they cry rachet.
Is there data about the 2024 election showing this available already? Because the 2020 data doesn’t support that.
Voted but voted for who? Jill Stein? I’m obviously saying they didn’t show up for Dems.
And the difference I see between right and left are about the same. Like those 4 points for left and right are really pretty much the same percentage. And that’s percentage, so it’s what I’ve said before that either 1) the left doesn’t exist (or is tiny), or 2) they don’t show up. Either way.
And finally I think Biden won because he went to the center and got those voters. The stressed sideliners in that graphic.
It wasn’t obvious, plenty of people simply say that the left doesn’t vote despite the fact they’re some of the most engaged voters out there.
You would think that courting the most dedicated voting demographic on your side of the aisle would be a positive if they weren’t already mostly voting for you anyway, but I’m not the kind of brilliant political machine that can lose elections to Trump twice. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah it was obvious I’m saying the left doesn’t show up for the dems when it’s a 2 party system.
You would think that courting the most dedicated voting demographic
They’re either tiny or they don’t show up for the Dems. Every time the dems (jfc do I have to add that every time?) rely on the left, they lose.
lose elections to Trump twice.
Hillary said she’d have a map room to fight climate change. You know that existential issue that the left totally says it will show up for for the dems, right? And they didn’t show up for the Dems.
Biden saw that and ran center. And he won. But Biden did left things anyway. And what did polls show? That the left wasn’t going to show up for the Dems.
Harris relied on the left to show up for the Dems and they couldn’t even do that for the dems when their own human rights and democracy was on the ticket.
The only time the Dems win is when they go to the center. After this, thy will never ever rely on the left again, because they never show up for the Dems.
I hope you see why people don’t add for the Dems every single time. Because it’s a pain in the ass and a mess.
Ignore, misread parent
Idk. I’m sure the cheneys endorsement brought out dozens of voters.
Couldn’t have said it better. This post is pure cringe but the op is a perfect example of why Democrats lost.
Naaah. What’s cringe are the smug pseudo-intellectual “trolley problem” gEnOciDe accusers that didn’t do shit but sit on their thumbs while the rest of us tried to save democracy.
Now they all get to blame the people that acted while smugly admitting that they chose not to?
An estimated 90 million people chose not to vote. Of those 90 million were third party supporting clowns that chose not to vote because they knew their candidate didn’t stand a chance. Also among those 90 million were protest-voting clowns that chose not to vote because their last two remaining brain cells were too busy fighting over third place.
There is ZERO logic or intelligence in accusing the people that actually tried and did something to avoid a shitty outcome while arrogantly having not done jack shit about it.
You aren’t saving democracy dude lmao
I don’t think you can save something you didn’t have to begin with tbh
I thought the people analyzing the election as a single-iteration trolley problem were primarily Harris supporters? [Pull lever] = Harris, [don’t pull] = Trump, right?
This is you. Your ‘But Trump’ strategy got you Trump twice now.
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So you tried saving democracy by… doing nothing and in the end, everyone lost. And I don’t recall ever supporting genocide, mentioning anything even remotely supportive of genocide, or even so much as hinting at that possibility of being an okay thing to do for any reason.
Voting for someone committing genocide and advocating for someone committing genocide IS supporting genocide.
There sure are a lot of people that didn’t do jack shit and think they have a place to blame anyone.
Canadian, voted for left wing party that had the best chance of winning despite the leader being a gilded spoon brat who couldn’t lead his way out of a wet paper bag.
I did my fucking part. All you wannabe progressives in the US had to do was vote to keep the Nazi out of office and you couldn’t even do that.
American. Voted for Harris. I think you responded to the wrong person.
That was in general to the people who “held back their vote” to “teach the Democrats a lesson”. The kind of people who don’t realize that the luxuries the west has were hard fought and think they will always be there.
Ahh. Gotcha. Well said, friend from the not too distant north!
Then you weren’t continuing the conversation and was grandstanding to the choir to feel better.
They were continuing the conversational thread about the people who didn’t do shit
Most of us in here voted. And it didn’t change the millions that didn’t.
They are preaching and yelling at the choir. It didn’t continue the conversation even the person responding to was confused.
And what has the liberal party done with your vote? Next year is going to be a fucking disaster. The strategy of voting for the least bad option doesn’t work when the least bad option keeps getting worse. You can bleat at people to vote for the one party over and over again, but eventually enough people just give up or get desperate for any chance at change and think that voting for the other party will at least shake things up.
I voted for the NDP.
Federally the Liberals are the centrists led by the gilded spoon spoiled brat who couldn’t lead his way out of a wet paper bag. But he is fantastic at speeches.
The same NDP that doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell at getting power nationally? Again, next year is going to be a disaster.
I wasn’t super fond of the democrat’s platform either man, but I definitely wanted Not Fascism and Some Semblance of Human Rights to win.
Now we have nothing, and I have to make plans to figure out how to get my girlfriend out of the country if she ever needs reproductive care. Great job!
Well hopefully blaming progressives instead of the people who actually voted for trump makes you feel better at least?
A party that insists we have to support genocide is already fascist and has no regard for human rights except to use as bargaining chips to get votes. Sorry.
There is more than one topic to consider. If they both are truly the same in your mind on that topic maybe look at other factors that heavily impact people? Voting for a 3rd party who has no chance of winning literally does nothing.
Yeah so Republicans. Great job.
‘But Trump’ got you Trump twice now, and you’re blaming the people that tried to save you from yourself.
Children try to help with tasks they are incapable of doing as well, that does not mean we should alter our actions to cater to them.
How has this worked out so far?
You got Trump elected twice.
Good job, if that was the intent.
Your child analogy is sophistry trying to pin responsibility for the DNC’s failures on others to preserve the paycheck of checks notebook oh yeah, the campaign manager of John Edwards failed primary campaign who then went to work for Clinton in 2016 and Harris in 2024.
You’re carrying the water for people who continue to fail up and then fail using the same strategy that failed them before.
Good job.
But… I’m guessing you’re not aware of the whole DNC consultant class that continues to drive failing campaigns that fail to get votes but succeed in getting billionaires contributions that get given to the consultant class so they can buy their next yacht. None of this is hidden either, it is public.
Which makes the irony of an ignorant person like you repeating the lines that fail to win votes but maintains the jobs of the people failing calling other people children.
EDIT: You’re like a musk fanboi with a paid for blue checkmark. Difference is that the musk fanboi at least knows they’re a fanboi.
You seem to have extrapolated quite a lot from such a brief comment. Is it possible you may have misstepped in some of your assumptions here?
Did you call the people pointing out the DNC was headed for disaster children, or were you calling the people who failed at their job children?
The children are the people vehemently demanding the DNC unilaterally employ their chosen platform, under the pretense that it would instantly solve their problems, and then subsequently abstaining out of protest. The political landscape is more complicated than that.
I’ve said elsewhere, elections are won on popularity, not policy. If the DNC unilaterally shifts to a pro-worker platform, all their wealthy donors shift to attack ads against them. Adopting more popular policies can ironically lose them votes as those policies get misrepresented to voters by propagandists.
Add to that the habit of progressives to abstain when a platform isn’t perfectly catered to them, and you have an impossible situation where you’re trying to court multiple conflicting demographics while the financial support you once had has been turned against you.
News flash, neoliberals are already fascist, they are just better at hiding it. They even endorsed Dick fucking Cheney.
Egocentrism is a defining American quality.
?
Your point?
Nothing could be more egocentric than believing every opinion different from your own can just be reduced to egocentrism. Maybe it’s time for a healthy dose of self awareness…
“All Opinions Are Equal”
Consider the proposition that all people’s opinions hold equal value. No one’s opinion is better or more valid than anyone else’s.
Hope this helps.
I’m not convinced the left was ever going to show up for any candidate. They’re already castigating Bernie, of all people. They’ve already purged AOC.
From what I learned it seems there is absolutely no limit to the amount of purity testing that seems to happen on the left. In the meantime, Republicans are marching us lockstep into direct fascism. So we can’t get anything done because none of the dnc candidates are perfect. Meanwhile, Republicans literally have no standards.
Um. Leftists vote at the highest rate of any polity.
There’s just not many of us.
The DNCs “standards” weren’t impressive to millions of center / center-left voters who voted for Biden.
Probably because they nakedly shilled themselves to anyone with a checkbook. Had no stances, offered no solutions, and came across as wildly out of touch.
Imagine how a tax credit for first time home buyers sounds to someone who can’t afford groceries.
You’re kind of proving my point. We’re now left with the alternative. Again: because we couldn’t be bothered to show up to vote. That home buyer tax credit was one of many policies. Like the child tax credit was a really big deal. But again, here we are tearing her platform apart while the repubs are marching lockstep.
Trump gets to coast on the guarantee that his base will show up no matter any-thing. He is most vile person that ever held office (maybe Jackson is up there with him). But the DNC candidate has to thread carefully and reach near perfection or else face endless barrage of criticism from within.
The two parties seem to have vastly different standards and that’s why we can never move further left. The right wins on every turn regardless while the left is sticking their nose up because the DNC candidate is just never left enough.
Yes when you cultivate a brainwashed mob of barely literate hateful fools you can manipulate them pretty easily.
Frankly I’ve abandoned democracy. We aren’t responsible enough to keep it and it’s grown too onerous to manage. It’s a garden that has overgrown our house. I doubt what’s coming will be better but hatching is rarely a good thing from the viewpoint of the eggshell.
Right. But unfortunately that’s our reality. We have to build up. If we ever want to move that Overton window… well now it jumped ten steps to the right. It doesn’t go back and forth between each cabinet. It just keeps sliding into the right because again: the right has no standards and is happy to march in lockstep while we quibble over which progressive policy just isn’t good enough.
I fear we deserve to watch the nation burn because like you said, democracy requires vigilance
I say she relied on the left coming out for abortion rights and democracy. They couldn’t even come out for that.
Abortion rights initiatives won in 7 out of 10 states where they were on the ballot.
And got 57% in FL, but needed 60% to pass
Fuck national rights amiright.
If the left would rather have Trump than a centrist Harris government, the left deserves blame
It’s not the left but everyone else that didn’t vote for her either.
The left is just an easy target cause we pointed out her flaws and people think by doing that we somehow made her flaws real.
Clearly a huge amount of people had issues with her or she would have won more votes. It’s like Trump thinking if we stopped testing for COVID it would stop happening.
If the leftists shut up Harris just would have lost in silence.
I don’t buy that. Trump got the undying loyalty support of all right wing media while Harris’s every word and move was scrutinized endlessly on left media. Even Joe Rogan - - supposed enlightened centrist - - did not dare criticize the god emperor Trump. It’s just not the same when it comes to the standards. We are so far from even beginning to have a conversation about progressive policies because we can’t even get our most basic candidates elected.
The right marches us in lockstep towards the bottom while we stick our noses up to our imperfect candidates. I just don’t buy it.
You are so backwards from reality that I don’t think it’s worth any of my time to point out all the wrong things you just said there as I doubt you will hear it at this point.
And the idea that we need to elect a centrist so that they can enact progressive policy they don’t want to do is up there.
Maybe just start with the thought that no one owes voting for an “imperfect” candidate if they just don’t want them in office.
Perfection is what you think people need when a real look at reality and hope to fix its issues is more than enough.
I didn’t say we need to elect a centrist to enact progressive policy (and by the way, you may call Kamala a centrist but she also had some very progressive policies). Biden has also enacted many progressive policies, so to just hand wave it away is laughable. The issue is your understanding of how politics works. If Bernie was president it’s not like he could magic wand all your dreams into existence. This is something you guys either don’t understand or just willingly ignore so you can stick your nose up at whatever candidate the DNC puts up. It doesn’t matter because after Trump’s cabinet is done we will be set back another hundred years. He will have the house, the judicial and everything else and we can sit here real smug about how ‘centrist’ Kamala was.
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Come around to what? People vote on emotion. And aren’t on Lemmy.
If there is a next election and people are feeling bad about the Republicans they might be looking for a different answer but it won’t be nuance.
Hoping for the general dumb populace to understand that a do nothing centrist is their best option to someone that agrees with them about items they passionately feel about is not going to happen. They will need to feel the other candidate supports them more properly than what they are getting which is why Trump won.
No nuance is gonna fix that and it’s cool to believe and hope that people will just come around to “better” conclusions.
What people will need to see and will often come around to us change. Hopefully more of us recognize that will happen anyways and help grab the reigns from the awful people who would hold them to oppress and use them to lead. But none of us in this comment chain right here will have the reach you are hoping for to ease your mind.
The words mean nothing without action and support.
You did. You said we need to elect whoever the Democrats give us to get progressive policies but whoever they give us will likely not support them. It’s putting the cart before the horse.
And she didn’t really. Look into her policies and they lacked any actual support for the larger population percentage. She was a centrist. It’s not pretend because you want to pretend she’s not.
Her house buying support was only for for first generation homebuyers, mostly immigrants who had lived in corporate owned apartments to track rent payments for 2 years and no one else. Business loans were for specific races in specific cities with specific history again. Trans support for prisoners but not health care for regular citizens. So on. She picked hyper specifics and that’s not helping people. That’s helping specific groups in ways they think keeps status quo but gets more votes.
When everyone feels like they are hurting telling them to hold on while you apply hyper specific help doesn’t feel very progressive or helpful.
It’s not picking apart by the way. It’s not like she didn’t say these things out loud and mean it. And other people who pay less attention aren’t going to be excited to hear about plans that don’t help them.
The issue is that you don’t know that people vote on emotion and think people can be told what’s best for them while they feel differently. It’s not that Bernie or any progressive would fix everything immediately but Trump won because he admitted there is a problem and agreed with people feeling hurt by the system.
He’s not gonna fix it, but he didn’t make people feel dumb and ignored. It’s not about you or me but the millions that it was true for. So acting smug about how centrist she wasn’t doesn’t help us either and won’t change her loss.
It gets you and the rest of us nowhere and is a great way to lose again by doing nothing but battling with hypothetical pedantry against reality.
Again join reality and maybe you might get somewhere but currently there is no way forward when this hellbent imagining it how you want. Everyone else will move on without the DNC if they have to. Change will and must happen. Sticking your nose up at it because you’d prefer it didn’t will keep you being ineffective at moving with it.
Here’s reality: The republican party put forward a candidate that literally quoted Mein Kampf and was also found liable for sexual abuse in court by a jury. The entire republican media apparatus and electoral base not only stood behind him but rabidly endorsed him lockstep from beginning to end. The DNC put forward a candidate that wasn’t very left (I’ll be first to agree with you that her platform tried to cater to the center). I’ll also grant that she wasn’t as charming or funny as Trump and she came across as center technocrat. I’ll grant you all of that.
My issue is we’ll never make progress because democrats (and when I say democrats I mean beyond the electoral base to include the entire media environment) will shred and nitpick any candidate regardless of where their policies stand. It’s not the policies, because even your post is a testament that you don’t understand how policies translate into legislation. Bernie could have come out with universal healthcare, and I promise you the democratic media apparatus would still find something to nitpick. There just isn’t solidarity on this side as the democratic platform has a very strong plurality of voices that hardly ever agree. None of this is diversity of opinion is happening on the side that is pulling us into a christian neo-fascist state. And believe me: those guys show up to vote every time.
Let’s assume that her polices were too center for your preferences. So what? Now that republicans control all branches and the judicial they’ll dismantle everything we built up so far. So congratulations I guess? We have to redo 100 years of work because Kamala just wasnt left enough for us.
Their main failure was choosing a half black, half Indian women as their candidate. That in it self is 3 failures. You can have ONE of those things. 2 is highly improbable, 3 is impossible.
This has nothing to do with how I think Harris will perform as president but more to do with how racist and misogynistic this country is.
I truly thing Walz would have done better at the polls.
Her rallies were massive and she was polling 10%+ ahead of Trump when she was seen as progressive.
When she went full blue dog and parroted the same strategy Clinton failed with in 2016, the advantage evaporated and she started polling at or under Trump.
Falsely attributing the failure to misogyny solves nothing.
But if it isn’t the progressives then it must be men’s fault, black people’s fault, Muslim people’s fault while being the fault of racists, misogynists and Islamiaphobes.
Or you could blame the party instead of the voters.
Rallies don’t turn into voters apparently.
More importantly, they stopped talking about rally size when she went blue dog.
The pictures I’ve seen of both sides’ October rallies looked about the same, very different from her earlier massive rallies.
I think you might just be racist and sexist if that’s your immediate thoughts.
Don’t push yours on everyone else.
Trump voters are literally waving Nazi flags and wearing misogynistic shirts.
Explain your logic to me of how you came to the conclusion that someone calling out racism and sexism is actually racist and sexist themselves.
Trump voters were never ever going to vote for Harris or any Democratic candidate. It was pure hubris and Folly to think that they could snag some.
Trying to court Trump voters was definitely a mistake. The strategy should have been to energize progressives.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. John Fetterman would have won easily. Americans pick based on appearance.
Ah yes, another centrist. That will surely work this time.
Centrist is a label based on a candidate’s position on issues.
I claim that doesn’t matter. Image matters.
Fetterman is a large white male that makes Trump look weak. That’s all that matters.
Trump can’t even run again
??? This is about the election that just happened.
I’d say they vote based on matching identities “(s)he’s like me”.
It’s so weird. Gaza is extremely important and deserving of the attention. It’s genocide, and it’s horrific. But is no one else important? Because we can’t save Gaza immediately, it’s really better to set outselevs on fire so we can burn together? Like, real talk, Harris will be fine. Biden will be fine. It’s our friends and neighbors who are going to be deported, harassed, laid off, homeless and scared for a minimum of four years.
I wouldn’t say they’re gone though. I’ve been down voted, told “my kind/type” are all talk, or that I’m okay with murder, I voted for genocide, the usual. But I couldn’t sit and do nothing.
But I guess this is what they wanted. The dems have been taught a lesson, we’re moving headfirst into a dictatorship, and Gaza is no safer, but their conscious is clear, somehow.
Real Talk, I’m getting real tired of everyone from the vaguely right of center to the farthest reaches of the left getting involved in this shit slinging blame game.
I legit don’t care anymore who you voted for (edit: so long as it wasn’t Trump I mean. But even then, time to start your redemption arc if you did). We are past the election and now all share the same immediate issues.
Folks who abstained from voting (or voted 3rd party) because you couldn’t stomach the lesser of two evils, good news, that choice is gone. You can stop parroting the idea that anyone who voted Blue did so “in support of genocide”. It should be clear by now those who voted Blue really were just doing their best in a bad situation, they are not your enemies.
Folks who voted Blue because you believe supporting the lesser evil is in service of the greater good. Good news, that burden is also gone. You can stop parroting the idea that someone who can’t stomach voting for people who would play politics with genocide is really just a tankie or a bot. Not every one is willing to play game theory with people’s lives, that doesn’t mean they are your enemies.
Anyone who truly wants to push for solidarity and human rights for all is an ally of mine. And I propose we bury the hatchet, preferably in the objectives of fascists, before its too late.
They’re easy targets. Blame the abstainers and third party voters and you don’t have to confront the legitimate failures of your party and campaign.
That’s very true, and we see it election cycle after election cycle. But for many who voted Blue, the Dem’s are not “their party”. They were playing the best hand they were dealt in a terrible situation. And while I get feeling sick to your stomach over playing that hand when the chips are peoples lives, I also get the cold calculus some people are willing to make for the greater good.
Frankly, Abstainers and Lesser Of Two Evil Voters have been, imho, radicalized against each other due to the contentious nature of the election. I don’t believe the camps were so separate a year ago.
If we all want to keep dying on this hill, well we certainly can and will. But I’ve talked to folks on both sides, and they largely want the same outcomes. Even if we all didn’t agree on the solution.
The election proved that divided we are not a larger group than the fascist collation in this country. But I’m willing to be combined we are.
And we don’t have to argue over the election anymore, so unless we want to find another hill to die on, I once again propose we agree with pushing towards are shared goals.
These hills are all they’re going to let us have. We’ll keep eating our own in the same valley every four years.
My greatest fear is that you are right.
Why not both?
Because it’s not a useful strategy. Convince them they’re wrong and they’ll shame themselves.
Nobody has denied that there are problems in the dnc, but the fault is still largely on the voters.
Nobody has denied there are problems with me, but the fault is still largely on women.
You’re in denial. Enjoy your drinks in the Cheney bar.
I am willing to move forward with centrists as coalition partners with the left-- only because neither of us can win alone, but after this election they have to come to the table as coalition partners, NOT leaders.
Progressives need to leave the Democratic party. Voters know that neither progressives or centrists have the numbres to win alone, but Progressives have popular issues to run on, and centrists have nothing but hisorical momentum thats stopped pretty cold at the moment. All the “anyone but trump” people will still be there next election (assuming there is one) and they will vote for leadership that is promising good things. And progressives will win. So I say lets formally split, and if the centrists come along theyd be welcome, and if they’d rather go it alone then they should get used to losing because they have no other future.
I think it is important to point out the failings of others. Otherwise they may not connect the dots and learn from their mistakes.
Sometimes a mistake is innocent, say you forgot to zip up your fly. It’s important to know you forgot to do so as it could be very socially embarrassing.
Sometimes one could accidentally cut someone off in traffic because they didn’t see them. A good honk notifies them of their mistake and will hopefully drive home the fact that they probably need to pay better attention to traffic.
Pointing out that abstaining and or choosing not to vote enabled the election of the greater of two evils is equally important.
Rock on OP. Never let them forget!
Then point at the FAILED DEMOCRAT PARTY instead of voters. When biden announced he was running for re-election their own internal polling showed he’d lose. They don’t fucking care, it’s all theatre to them. Their corporate owners are happy and the donations continue to flow in from foolish rubes like you who will gladly vote blue no matter who right off a fucking cliff.
Kamala Harris spent a billion dollars and still fucking lost. But yeah go blame voters that will ensure the same thing happens in 2028 should we be so lucky to pretend to play democracy again. And it is pretend. Because if you don’t vote correctly you’re the worst person to ever exist.
If that delusion makes feel better about enabling a facist, then you probably aren’t ready to come to terms with your failure.
Sooner or later, one way or another, it will come for you.
Continue losing elections.
If Dems continue loosing elections they will definitely come for you.
Maybe the dems who claim to be my ally should consider that when holding unpopular positions that don’t get them elected. They don’t care.
Cool, I can’t wait to see what this Republican President does for whatever position it is you care about.
I hope Trump goes HARD!
I’ve been repeating this thought exercise because people seem to have a hard time delineating when blame goes the other way.
Bob is standing next to a bomb, and a fuse is sparking down. Jill, on the other side of a fence and reliant on Bob, lifts a huge very expensive sign for Bob to stamp out the fuse. Bob does not stamp out the fuse, bomb goes off.
Who is at fault; Bob for not stamping out the fuse, or Jill for not getting a high-amp bullhorn to inform Bob he should stamp the fuse?
Feel free to vary the analogy, but the question would extend to: When does it become Bob’s fault that he didn’t take action?
It remains the democrats fault for:
• gaslighting the public about inflation
• gaslighting the public about not one but two new wars including a genocide!
• refusing to run a small D democratic primary that they didn’t rig since checks notes 2004 (they tried to rig 2008 for Hillary but failed because Obama was so charismatic they couldn’t stop him)
• refusing to run a primary at all in 2024, despite biden promising when elected in 2020 to be a one term president, and his own polling showed he’d lose in 2024
• last minute Hail Mary of replacing biden with Harris despite not a single vote being cast for her
• no platform other than “we’re not trump! Elect an anti-democratic party to save democracy! Trumps the next hitler!!!”
• didn’t bother campaigning in swing states just like Hillary in 2016
Gee I wonder why they lost the election. Couldn’t be that they continuously gaslight the public. Couldn’t be that they didn’t hold a primary (sorry but RFK Jr vanity run is not a primary). No, no. Voters just voted wrong!
But don’t worry! We have to save dEmOcRaCy! Let’s just roll over and hand the power over to trump because he won fair and square and optics and politeness are more important than saving the country! You see, the democrat party doesn’t actually give a shit, if they were serious, they would have their own January 6th. They’re not serious. They’re gonna fundraise off of it. Just like roe v Wade!
no platform other than “we’re not trump! Elect an anti-democratic party to save democracy! Trumps the next hitler!!!
Yeah? Why do you need a platform beyond this?
It was a competent former prosecutor vs a serially lying violent felon.
‘But Trump’ got you Trump twice. At this point you’re arguing against the concrete proof that your view WON’T WORK to justify blaming people that tried to save you from yourself.
You, in this case, is the DNC and everyone else blaming voters for the failure of the DNC.
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Why do you need a platform beyond this?
They shouldn’t have even include the democracy angle in their campaign. You cannot run on “Trump is a threat to democracy,” when you own administration has completely failed to put the man behind bars.
Imagine the insanity if Trump, in 2020, had ran on a campaign of taxes being too low, after he had just slashed them. That is the level of idiocy the Harris campaign was trying to run on.
You had four years to put the guy behind bars. You don’t get to then point to him as a threat to democracy, since you yourself clearly do not consider him to be a threat to democracy.
Actions. Speak. Louder. Than. Words.
Jill set and lit the bomb, and lifts up a big expensive sign saying that defusing bombs is antisemitic and what Putin wants. Bob tries as hard as he can to put out the bomb anyway, but Jill made sure to design it such that Bob can’t defuse it. So, once it’s clear his efforts are futile, Bob runs as fast as he can away from Jill and the bomb, and the bomb blows up.
When does it become Jill’s fault that she did actively take harmful actions?
This might actually be the single best comment in this thread.
I’d rather keep up the blame game, ngl. Arguments didn’t work on the disingenuous pricks who helped get us here. I don’t care if they personally made a difference or not, I care that they were utterly unreasonable, and the change in circumstances won’t change that.
Speaking to anyone who could’ve voted for Kamala but didn’t: I don’t care about solidarity anymore; you didn’t have solidarity with us when we needed you. Y’all are fucking stupid and I don’t want to deal with that. I realize that’s not the moral choice, but RN for the first time in over a decade I don’t care about that. I’m angry. Maybe in a few more days or weeks or months that will change, maybe not. Right now I’m focusing on making sure all my remaining friends are able to get somewhere safe if the need arises and keep hope kindled in their hearts. Maybe that means other people who need my help more will suffer, die, or fall victim to their own despair, but I just don’t have the wherewithal to make that my priority.
I don’t care about solidarity anymore
Never did. Solidarity means you aren’t willing to sacrifice marginalized groups to get ahead or save your own skin. If you accept sacrificing Palestinians, you’d accept sacrificing any other group by the exact same “lesser-evilist” logic. What value does that kind of “solidarity” have?
To be fair, for many the choice to save or sacrifice Palestine never felt like it was on the table. For those people, the choice was between making a deal with the devil to save as many marginalized groups as possible, or sacrificing said marginalized groups to keep their “hands clean”.
I believe both sides of this argument felt like they were pushing for solidarity the best way they knew how. And due to the emotionally charged nature of this choice, we wound up losing all solidarity ironically.
If you truly believe in solidarity, then try to see the human on the other side of the screen and be the first to reach out and mend the cracks.
Here’s the thing. I’m trans. On our own, we represent a tiny sliver of the voting public, not worth considering from a strategic standpoint. But there are plenty of other groups of people in the same boat. Together, we are worth considering - but only together. “What force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one?” If we try to build a coalition in which we abandon any group that the democratic politicians deem too much of a liability to be worth protecting, that is no coalition at all, and I well understand that after Palestinians, I will be next. The very same logic that these people were willing to deploy against them can and will be deployed to justify abandoning me and mine.
What advantage do I gain from joining together in a “coalition” in “solidarity” with these fair-weather friends who will drop us at the first sign of trouble? Honestly, they are more of a liability than an asset, because if I’m buddying up with them, it damages my credibility among potentially more reliable people who have good reason not to trust them. I would rather do it the right way and build trust even if it means building from the ground up.
I appreciate what you’re trying to do, but these disagreements are meaningful and important. This election may be over, but the question remains of what the appropriate strategy is going forward, whether to build a coalition that will treat an offense against one as an offense against all, and ensure that anyone who comes for any part of it is unelectable, or whether to “vote blue no matter who” as we are picked off one-by-one, in exchange for temporary, short term security for some.
I get your points and they are well taken. Just be careful not to swing at ghosts so hard that you hit those who would have made great allies.
Not every one who voted Blue is a “fair-weather friend”. Frankly, I bet you would be surprised with how many would be willing to push for something better if given the opportunity.
And sometimes, people just need to be given the chance. The disagreements are meaningful, but the shit slinging is not. And I’m afraid we have traded in meaningful discussion for pure shit slinging.
Every ‘Vote Blue No Matter Who’ absolutely are fair weather friends. it means you don’t actually understand what you’re voting for and have no principles for which you’d hold the line. If you wouldn’t hold the line for a group experiencing a genocide you are not worth putting our group on the line for.
You can absolutely continue to try papering over what the DNC and dems like the OP just did to the palestinians but there isnt an argument on this blue earth that will result in my forgiving of it. The only option for those individuals is repentance.
Oh, okay, well I just checked with all the “Vote Blue No Matter Who” people, and everyone repented. Crazy I know, but every single one. Completed the repentance ceremony and everything. So we can all agree to work towards the greater good now right?
What’s that? Still no!? Is that because you were never arguing in good faith? Wow, I sure am shocked.
Look friend, I’m not interested in dying on pointless hills. Not while there are still things worth fighting for. If you have found your hill, I wish you luck holding it.
Hey look it’s one of the problems.
Please explain how Trump will bring in peace and stop Israel from hurting anymore Palestinians, since that’s the only way your dumbass argument would even be coherent
Never claimed that and explained my logic plenty of times elsewhere, not interested in doing so with a low-effort troll.
Sounds like you have your hands full dealing with getting you and yours to safety. Good luck, I wish you all the best in that endeavor!
I can’t blame you for being angry, but just try not to let that anger turn you into the thing you are angry at. Someone who stands idly by when someone needs help you could provide.
Lotta usage of the word solidarity when you were reliant on a people that the Democratic candidate campaigned on continuing the genocide of.
Kinda seems like your definition of solidarity is ‘support me no matter what.’
>Lemmy.ml
> Projecting
No surprises.
Look at that, a jackass fine with genocide falling back to ad hominem, because their screed of “I’m done with solidarity” when they had none in the first place gets pointed out for the bullshit it was.
I’ll be sure to tell my trans friends it’s okay that they’re getting thrown under the bus next because Leate_Wonceslace is done with solidarity. The Dems are already explicitly blaming them for the loss.
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> is subjected to any criticism what so ever
> instantly falls into elaborate fantasy
> shares fantasy with the public, for some reason
> believes own fantasy, thinks others are insane
> publicly and loudly tells people “I’m ignoring you”
Seems about right.
Time is linear. The Democratic party backed a genocide BEFORE the election.
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“Because of the likes of you” I’m gonna need you to explain that one.
On this platform specifically we’ve had months of smug people claiming to make the moral choice of directly or indirectly supporting the clearly worse choice. It’s far too early to just let that slide.
If we in 100 years still sometimes talk about the early days of the fediverse where a bunch of morons fell for astroturfing, that’s kind of a good outcome.
If they’re real people they should feel bad.
For the not so real people, we should figure out how a distibuted system can deal with a concerted astroturfing operation.
Friendly reminder that Joe Biden is still the president and could stop sending weapons to Israel right now if he wanted to. But he doesn’t.
Dems failed and people who abhor genocide unfortunately had little to do with it, though listening to Lemmy libs you’d think they personally destroyed her campaign
Blame the at most 2 million or so antigenocide protestors, instead of the 75 million who voted for Trump. Considering Harris was short 8 million votes, it didn’t really matter.
Blame Trump voters first, but also blame Harris for running a dog shit campaign where she leaned right to pickup Republicans, and ended up picking up zero R voters while completely alienating the progressives and losing 14 million votes from Biden’s 2020 performance.
The Dems don’t seem too upset though. They would rather lose to the republicans than let progressives have any sort of power.
Throwing your vote in the trash is a vote for garbage, and garbage won by a landslide.
The garbage voters really hate to hear it.
So let me get this straight:
The Democratic Party snubs the left— even the progressives. They court the right wing, parading the Cheneys around.
The democrats lose.
The rightwing voters get riled up by the mask-off hatred, while their politicians straight up lie to Muslims and Latino people, winning some of their votes.
The democrats lose ground across the board. Their entire turnout was depressed. No matter how many times they learned their views were losing them votes, they refuse to budge on the issues they were undoubtedly wrong about. The fuckin meme says “we didn’t vote for genocide!!!” We can all agree voting…for genocide is…bad, right?
And you’re blaming the people who were ignored and told once again to go fuck themselves? Because they couldn’t stomach voting for people publicly and unflinchingly supporting the genocide.
Not the lying fascists, not the losing party for being told they were going to fail and still failing?
This is exactly how you continue to fail and lose to fascists.
And im telling you right now. History won’t look back and say “those fools! They didn’t vote because of a teensy little genocide!” They will say “all of those people stood by while a holocaust was happening.”
Not a doubt in my mind.
Had nothing to do with it… or at least insignificantly. The Dems on a platform of “were not him” and the economy is booming… while people where hurting and got shafted by the wave of devaluation… people are angry… and the let’s keep going on the same path and change nothing and so nothing party did not get people out to vote.
It’s possible the idea that they ran a “not Trump” campaign is true enough, and that was part of the failure vs. being more to the left or vocal or any number of other things suggested. But the very fact that “not Trump” made people not show up and throw the election to him, or worse vote FOR him, says a lot about the state of the country.
I get it, people are hurting economically and somehow get blinded into promises that magic will happen. But Trump? Anyone voting this time around was around when he was in office the first time…are we that short memory? Yeah, we apparently are…repeating the same thing over and over expecting different results. And that can be applied to both sides, but one of them was the same guy.
I think you, someone who probably keeps up on the news and outrage and etc. are overestimating how much others do.
People are absorbed in their day to day life. Trump’s gonna appoint RFK to a health leadership position? That’s a far away concept with only vague implications for people who are having to take payday loans for the first time to make rent. Harris didn’t truly run a campaign of hope and change like '08 Obama.
Exactly… were not going back… to when we could afford rent?
Why? America is the country of fuck around and find out. There where no consequences, no prison time, no perp walk… there was no find out… so by extension… there must not have been a fuck around. It must have been a lot of Dems screetching about stuff but no actual smoke or fire.
Well they couldn’t punish trump or else they might ruin the fantasy that the wealthy and in charge are untouchable and they might be next for all the shit they pull.
Well it appears they’ll never figure that out and intend to lose more so in 4 more years.
Trump will have had 4 years to Putin up America by then. I’m not sure elections will matter any more by then. This is all just academic.
“Democrats lost because of this out that… They’ll never learn…” “Trump won because of that…”
Who fucking cares anymore? The fascists are in charge now.
So if the fascist are in charge does that mean you just give up? No resistance? No civil war? Just hand America over to the fascists?
… No resistance? No civil war?
Who’s going to be on my side? Trump won the popular vote. Think we can rely on ppl that can’t even bother to vote to come actually put their lives in peril for a cause? Who would I fight with and what in the fuck are we even fighting for?
I’ll be in the fight anyway, as soon as there actually is one, but Americans will need to wake the fuck up before that’s possible.
Think we can rely on ppl that can’t even bother to vote to come actually put their lives in peril for a cause?
All that needed be said on the subject.
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put their lives in peril for a cause?
I mean if liberals weren’t so willing to through palestinians under the genocide train maybe you’d have some support? start but recanting your behavior with your community. go and support people in it and you’ll be surprised.
start but recanting your behavior with your community. go and support people in it and you’ll be surprised.
You’re talking out of your ass. You don’t know me or what I do for my community and you’re being pretty self righteous. So listen here:
Too late for any of this to matter, as I’ve said. Blame liberals. Blame Democrats. Trump is in power. Now it gets worse for everyone. Maybe you’ll enjoy the revenge of watching American liberals suffer. Maybe it will outweigh the additional suffering to the Palestinians in your mind.
Personally, I was never a big fan of Biden or Kamala but I voted for both of them out of necessity. I didn’t agree with Israel’s response to the Hamas attack. I wish Biden had taken a stand. Kamala would have been better but not great. Trump is far, far worse.
Too many Americans are ignorant to the binary choice they have and they threw their vote away. Too many Americans are either hateful or gullible enough to vote for Trump. Too many are just lazy or not interested. All that ignorance and anger has given power to a narcissist fascist, who loves, I mean loves Israel. He’s in charge of a vast arsenal and the halfway serious people from his last administration won’t have anything to do with him this time. This time he’s only appointing loyalists, just like a fascist.
Trump’s going to deport anyone he can from the US right away. Israel will do whatever they want with blessings and help. Trump will try to cling to power for more than four years. The next election might not count (Putin style, Trump’s buddy). This may get worse for some time to come.
Support cuts both ways and the sane people left in America got none of it this election. Now we all face the consequences.
I like how instead of taking the sound advice to reach out within your community for support you take offense and try to rationalize your support for genocide. enjoy trump you’ve certainly earned him. makes popcorn
Isn’t that what you did when you chose not to vote?
Civil war? What kind of shit talk is this?
Sound like you’re rooting for that clusterfuck of an option.
Better to fight the civil war than to just roll over for them
Better to not roll over AND not start a civil war.
Agreed, but if you gotta take on the other, which one do you pick?
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The 2024 presidential election was like a really hairy credit card bill. Republicans ran on a platform of ignoring the debt all together and not making any payment at all, letting it get further out of hand. Democrats got blasted for proposing to make a minimum payment that did nothing toward interest. Neither choice was going to get us out of debt. But one of the choices is definitely going to bankrupt us. We could have made a payment. Now we’re in way over our head instead.
The only people making noise are the centrists looking to blame everyone but themselves for a sweep of all the levers of government, and a gradual loss of the judiciary that will doom the republic. It was an epic asswipping of historic proportions with you lot leading and owning the losing strategy. You dont even have the diginity to be embarrassed about it.
You geniuses lost voters across every single demographic except college educated whites, flatly ignored the economic hardship of the lower and middle class and told people they were delusional to talk about it, and on top of that they enabled and participated in obvious far right war crimes. You lost minority and youth support and trust across the board. And you have no way of earning it back beyond your same tired playbook of being slightly better than Trump, on just a few issues.
Even if Harris had done the right, legal, moral thing and indicated she’d halt the shipments, she still would have lost on her idiotic low-polling economic policy that polled the same as Joe Bidens presidency. So you all supported war crimes and soiled the dem name for basically no gain at all. You doomed the republic, soiled the global understanding of “democracy”, and showed the western world order to be a hollow shell of what it once was, where laws and justice dont really matter. All so the DNC elites could take some zionist bribes on a single election cycle, which you then lost. Heck of a job. Its hard to imagine screwing the globe any more thoroughly. Its breathtaking. You couldnt have done a more thorough job if you were maga republican fascists yourselves.
If you thought the people who were critical of the Democrats went quite after the election, you’re saying more about the echo chamber you’ve built for yourself than anything else.
They voted for a worse genocide.
In 2 different places no less and possibly more.
They just don’t know it yet.
I’ve a feeling some of them know it. They’re just remaining here to maintain enough credibility to be believable during the next propaganda wave that’ll hit us once trump allows his boss to crater Kiev.
Last I checked Trump lost 3 million voters since last election, and Harris lost 10 million.
The couch won. It’s not like people were suddenly won over by a person they’ve likely seen through 3 election cycles.
Great job couches, now your worst enemy is VP-elect.
Yea those couches are fucked now.
Right, which is why people are angry at the people who couldn’t even go vote for Harris
But the poster claimed they voted for a worse genocide. I’m saying they didn’t vote.
Not voting for Harris was indirect support for worse genocide. Choosing to stay on the couch is still a choice, and this time that choice gave us Trump
Well thankfully they also not voted for Trump which was indirect support for the better genocide.
Right, which is why people are rightfully furious at those they didn’t even bother to vote for the objectively better option
She didn’t appear better. So telling people that did nothing.
I don’t know why that’s a hard concept, for so many. Lemmy liberals love to think they can tell people exactly what to do because they are obviously right.
It’s smug and not effective and yet tactics don’t change just berate harder.
You forgot at home, where the marginalized groups are also gonna feel the brunt of turnips policies.
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One of the candidates was against Palestinian genocide??
Maybe pick a candidate that people want to vote for next time
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You vote based on the choices you’re presented, not the ones you like. Like it or not a no vote is a vote one way or another.
Your comment highlights the tension between idealism and realism when it comes to voting.
Ideally, everyone would vote based on the choices they’re given. But in the real world, human behavior is messy—especially in an electorate like America’s, where civic education is weak and collective action is a foreign concept to many. It’s not surprising that “lesser evil” voting and the idea of keeping a genocide on simmer failed to compel a minority of voters who chose to abstain.
Do I blame nonvoters? Sure, to an extent—maybe 49%. But realism forces me to direct most of the blame at the Democratic Party, which has spent the last eight years repeatedly folding to Trump’s every authoritarian move. Until they address their own complicity, they’ll continue to bear the larger share of responsibility for this broken dynamic.
So motivational, that will surely drive Dems to turn out and vote for someone.
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You mean like Shill Stein? Or do you mean that other do-nothing that no one can remember because they’ve done nothing?
I’m just guessing here but they probably don’t mean a candidate who got less than 1% of the vote. I’m not sure why that’s where you went right away.
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Amazingly, nobody’s happy that the dems decided to sacrifice the whole country rather than budge on exterminating the Palestinians.
I mean, Kamala really wanted Republicans in the white house with her. I bet she’s elated to see how many will be in there now.
