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Lmao, bruh. How do people keep praising a language where messing up a space breaks everything and there is no real type system?
I have never once, in nearly 20 years of using python, encountered IndentationError. Until today actually. I tried to make it happen because I couldn’t remember the class name.
The whitespace doesn’t bother me. Any IDE worth a damn will manage that for you. As for the type system, yeah, I strongly prefer static typing, but for simpler projects I can see the convenience of it.
My real issue with Python comes with managing a development environment when multiple developers are working on it. Dependency management in Python is a headache, and while in theory, virtual envs should help with synchronizing environments from machine to machine, I still find it endlessly fiddly with a bunch of things that can go wrong that are hard to diagnose.
Python is great for small scripts, proofs-of-concept, and such, but I wouldn’t write anything more heavy-duty than that in it.
You can totally write heavy duty things if you know what you’re doing: use type hints, static checkers, tests, etc. It just takes a bit more effort and care.
But why would I use something that takes more effort and care?
I’m sure you’re right and it’s possible, but if I don’t have to fix another python project at work I’ll be in heaven.
Because “more effort and care” in Python is still way less of a pain in the ass than the minimum enforced boilerplate necessary in most other languages.
it’s more effort and care compared to a throwaway script, not necessarily compared to other languages
Personally, my estimate doubles when we’re asked to implement something in Python…
That’s a proficiency matter. Python is the language I can get something done the fastest today, but 6 years ago that would be Java or even JS for me.
Nah it’s also a language matter. People complain about Rusts complexity, meanwhile I complain about everything else in other languages, and am faster than in any other language, not necessarily because writing code is faster, but because I am able to just focus on writing code. I cannot tell that about other languages, because e.g. the packaging system is bad, or configuring an environment, or debugging stuff which a strong type-system would have caught already. Also IDE experience I think is the one thing that keeps me away from dynamic languages. Rust analyzer is so much better than anything else I’ve tried, and it keeps getting better (e.g. recently it was added to show whether a trait is object safe or not, and why it is not).
Another thing that is often missed when comparing static with dynamic languages is just performance, python heavily relies on stuff written in a system language, as soon as a hot-loop is written in python, things get bad…
Eh, it’s most definitely part of it, but the biggest time sink that I expect when working with Python is fixing the build system every two weeks on different devs’ PCs. I do imagine, if you eventually find a solution that works on most PCs that this workload will go down, but we had a substantial Python part in my previous project and over the course of the 1½ years that we worked on it, it really felt like we were making negative progress. Near the end of it, I couldn’t use PyCharm anymore, because I couldn’t figure out for the life of me, how to make it recognize the dependencies again.
Any IDE worth a damn will manage that for you.
Yeah in like 10% of cases. I’m copying something from a pdf my prof gave. The only ones able fix spacing now are me and God
You, god, pretty much any Formatter and ide. Black Formatter: “All leading tabs are converted to spaces, but tabs inside text are preserved.” Vscode has a command to convert between the two, and non-leading tabs are a simple replace/regex away from being converted. If you mean unorthodox spacing, if you have code with like 7 leading spaces, then that’s a matter for a priest.
Yeah, working on python projects professionally is always a nightmare of configuring env variables and trying to get your system to perfectly match the reference dev system. I find Node.js projects to often be the simplest and most pain free to setup, but even compiled languages like C# and Java are often easier to get up and going than python.
A statically typed Python would be my dream programming language.
Can someone please make Typethon?
Type checking for python is not bad these days, just run pyright (or mypy, I would like to prefer the non MS solution, but we have found pyright much more rigorous) on your code. Yes obviously you can still get out of it with an ignore statement, and that might occasionally be necessary for some libraries, but if you enforce no errors in pre-commit or CI then it’s only a little worse than compile time.
Pyright language server makes Typethon out of your Python at the cost of massive bugs and performance. I used to like it, until I got really sick of waiting about 10 seconds for a suggestion to appear when typing open() and really fucking sick of the entire server crashing after I type pow()
because it’s easy to use. I don’t like strangling my code because it’s screaming about semicolons again
where messing up a space breaks everything
Messing up some character breaks everything in any language, skill issue
there is no real type system
What does “real” mean? It’s pretty robust these days.
Have you tried Rust?
Yes, I love rust and use it regularly, but it is suitable for totally different use cases than python. Have you worked on a python project using strict type checking enforced in CI? It really isn’t so bad.
I haven’t, but everytime I try python I want to quit it so quickly because of the messed up packaging system and more importantly IDE experience (and I don’t think unless you are extremely disciplined with type annotations, that you’re getting even close to rust-analyzers performance). I enjoy just exploring dependencies with go to definition, and the trust I can have in the type system.
I’m swearing everyday in my job about typescript, which is just javascript with leaky and unnecessary complex type annotations. So yeah I even consider typescript bad (and I doubt that python is better with type-checking).
In my experience which is pretty extensive with python but only moderate with typescript I’d say it’s probably better, easier to work with and offers a similar level of flexibility.
Not sure what you mean by performance but it’s easy to be disciplined when you can’t commit something that isn’t fully annotated. I feel like I can trust it fairly well, except for rare occasions where external library code is wrongly annotated and I have to put some ugly shim in.
Afaik you can just go to definition in literally any language, typing or no.
I’m in total agreement about the packaging though, it sucks.
performance
Like raw runtime performance, if I write the code in python, it’s ~ 100x slower than in Rust. You often get away with dumber stuff in Rust as the compiler is able to optimize it well. With python you would have to write your native bindings either in Rust/C or C++. So why not straight use Rust (as the other choices aren’t sa(f/n)e at this point anymore).
Afaik you can just go to definition in literally any language, typing or no.
No you can’t, at least not in the same way that a static type-system allows. As dynamically-typed programs are evaluated on runtime, so you often don’t know at the time while coding what is run. In untyped/dynamically typed languages you often use heuristics to jump into stuff, which is just less precise.
There’s more to this, but I think you get what I mean, when you programmed more intensively with static generics in Rust (compared to something similar in say javascript or python without types), IDE experience is just more precise and correct (and more fun).
Rust:
Jesus Christ! No thanks! I can’t imagine improperly placing cabinet knobs on closet doors like that
I already hate that style of door but the knobs make it even worse
Fun fact: the negative space in the pattern of the door is a cross. The 2 squares below it (out of frame) make an open Bible too.
Learned that on a field trip to a door factory where I nearly got left behind because I was looking at a very loud door cutting machine.
Is the archinstall script not working?
Idk, it was some image I found on Unix socks
Pink Fedora logo is class
Missing a fursuit or cat ears and a tail plug
Or fox ears :3
Foxgirls are absolutely valid sorry for this erasure
I prefer cat ears and tail plug. Im not a furry, I’m a catgirl :3
(No problem with furrries tho)
Catgirls are cute and I will pet any who will allow
Mrrp :3
(I wan headpats)
pat pat pat happy girl!
:333
Y’all need Qt Creator: C++ for under the hood and Javascript for the UI. Virtually nonexistent base of coders who can do both competently and if you’re not careful you end up moving to Finland because of it.
I worked a bit on the previous version of Neptune UI https://doc.qt.io/archives/neptune3ui/ wit QML and I worked mostly with integration of https://doc.qt.io/QtApplicationManager/ into different cars. But I stayed in Sweden for that.
I know Qt is cross-platform, but cars? Wow! I only ever used it for shitty Skype clones for Canadian ISPs.
Oh it’s very popular in the automotive industry, especially for the in vehicle infotainment like navigation, radio, media playerand so on. They even offer a automotive specific version of it:
https://www.qt.io/industry/qt-in-automotiveSadly most of the OEMs slowly move to Android.
I’ve learned python after CPP… And I can’t #even remember all the cases when I thought “damn, I wish I could’ve just used pointers”
I’ve been in industry for a decade, big tech for over 6 years. And I STILL fucking hate Python. I can write in it, but everything about it just feels wrong
Similar story in our team with 2-15 YoE. We do TS and C# but recently did a hostile takeover of the API from one of our providers which is in python We all now fucking hate python. The codebase is fine, the language isn’t.
Might I introduce you to the wonderful language known as Nim? Python-like syntax, compiles to C, C++, and even JS, has mature libraries and good tooling, and some memory safety features built in! And yes, you can use pointers!
Even our C++ guys won’t touch my C code with all the pointer tricks and unions used for hidden castings. Whimps!
But python has worse problems than lacking pointer. Have you ever copied a piece of code from an external source into a python source? It really can f-ck up everything if one has tabs and the other has spaces.
Or a complier that tells me when I mispell a variable in an assignment or use the wrong type for something.
The JavaScript boy became a sexy mysterious wizard.
Checks out.
Python?? False
also None is another annoying quirk
How is None a quirk?
The way it’s written. Most programming languages call it null
That’s pretty low bar for calling something a “quirk”. The whole ML family, so OCaml, SML, Haskell, F# and perhaps a the new distant relative Rust call it also it
None.And it’s not even the same thing:
nullmeans pointer to nothing, whileNonemeans no value.
Rust is a scrappy pimply kid vs a US Marine (still with pimples).
Ada is just two redacted pictures
PHP
dead
That’s PCP
Let me guess. Are the Java and Python programmers happy after because they leave up their technical debt for someone else to resolve? 🤭
that’s why it’s so addicting. lol
Java is in a completely different leagues to the rest of these.
Whatever you think Java sucks at, the other languages mentioned here suffer from much worse.
A language is only as enjoyable as the hellish legacy projects that you’ll actually spend your time maintaining.
That’s why the Java programmer looks happier in the “after” pic. Not as much as Python but it’s still there.
The jpeg is strong, but if you look closely she is covered with scabs and sores.
Checks out
Does Java have an elegant way of compiling to native machine code now? Genuinely asking.
Not java itself, but GraalVM can do this https://www.graalvm.org/latest/reference-manual/native-image/
I can’t confidently tell you it’s production ready as I have never used it myself.
Cobol
💰💰💰💰💰
Every time I use python it makes me want to throw my computer through my window. Doesn’t happen with other languages. Pip fucking sucks it seems like every time I want to install dependencies for a project there is one that throws a compilation error when installing it. Like, why does it not try to download the version of the package that works with my version of python?? It doesn’t even tell me why it failed!!!
i still do not fathom what on earth you people are doing to get these issues.
The worst annoyances i’ve had with python is just running the correct commands to install stuff, which is no different from working with git.Yup. The fact that the “proper” method to develop is to work in a sandboxed environment tells me everything I need to know. I feel like the only thing you learn from python is how to fight python instead of anything about programming. Personally, I think we need to stop recommending it as a first language.
So… The proper way is… Global installs? What are you saying here?
Just use poetry or something, install the environment in your project directory and you’re done. The versions of your dependencies are fixed, so are consistent across installs, and because it’s sandbox you aren’t polluting your system, and vice versa.
And if you’re using a language that installs the dependencies localy, guess what? That’s what you’re already doing, only with less security.
There’s another one?! What’s wrong with venv, pipenv, virtualenv, flit, conda, etc. I just want to write code, not fight with silly tools. It’s a scripting language after all.
a) poetry came out 6 years ago, though UV is the new kid on the block, it’s easier to complain about that if you want to.
b) so, you are fighting with silly tools, but don’t want newer, hopefully better tools? If you aren’t fighting with silly tools, then more options is bad? I guess it’s a bit confusing for beginners?
c) how are you fighting with the tools? This is a genuine question, I don’t remember the last time that the tooling caused a problem and I’ve been working professionally with python for the last 5 years, on both small and larger projects, first I used conda, and in the last few years poetry. In poetry, it’s two commands to create a new environment, and install everything. The only time I had a problem was with an internal library that had misconfigured dependencies.
d) here’s the rundown on the dependency tools:
- Virtualenv is one of the oldest, from the python 2 times
- venv is just a subset of Virtualenv that was integrated into the standard library to have venvs available without external tools
- conda is not python specific, it also does R, Ruby, some DB stuff, etc… It tries for maximum compatibility with various systems. This is apparently very useful in bioinformatics which use very disparate tools.
- Pipenv is an attempt to implement ruby-like dependencies. I don’t know much about it, it’s not used much.
- flit is lightweight, for publishing packages only
-poetry is what I am currently using. Simple toml based dependencies. Installs the packages wherever your want. Since it uses toml, it’s compatible with other tools like dependi to check for updates. It’s got a pretty good set of commands that you don’t need to remember because
initandupdateis what you need 90% of the time. Can also publish packages, and has separate dev/prod dependency groups. - uv is the new one, written in rust (of course) and very fast. Also installs python versions, meaning you no longer need a separate tool/docker images to manage your python versions. No multiple dependency groups yet. Aiming to become the only tool you need to do anything in python. Still <v1.0 and not feature complete.
- pdm is more of a project manager, that allows for plug ins, scripts, and also no virtual envs if you want. Does a lot of things similar to poetry.
I mean, every one if these has a reason for existing, and is an improvement of the previous one (pdm started as a personal project, let people have their fun) . It’s also a good few years between them, so it’s not like they’re spamming them.
My bad. I personally can’t stand Python, and am just a python hater. If I used python professionally as a general purpose language, I would probably want all the tools. Though… I never needed a virtual environment in another language.
In the codebases I work in, python is occasionally used as a cross-platform scripting language, which is where its bread and butter should be. Never more than 200 lines. Every time I crack open a codebase, if there is any python, it doesn’t work. That will be the thing I have to fight before I get to work on the real problem. If it has been a year, it’s broken. If it’s a Linux project, you’re better off using Bash if you want it to run a year from now. On Windows, well…
Did… Did someone on the Internet admit to not being 100% correct?!
What is happening right now? Is it the apocalypse? the end times?
Has great Cthulhu risen, neath the dark waves of the abyss to tear mind from-
Ok, a bit dramatic, but when was the last time you saw anyone give an inch in an online argument?
Anywho, thanks for the context, though I think the idea of python as a “scripting language” is a bit overblown.
I felt bad you typed all that out when I’m just a python hater who isn’t able to argue in good faith.
I have worked with TypeScript for about 6 years now, professionally, and I really enjoy it. It’s got all the nice things from JavaScript, obviously, and almost eliminates all the bad stuff/uncertainties from JavaScript. That’s my opinion. I feel very confident working with TS.
Python managed to turn me away before I wrote a single line of code.
Running an already functional project took me nearly two hours and three separate tutorials.
What’s so difficult?
import project as p p.run()Hmm, I follow the package’s readme and only get invalid command errors.
Gotta install the pip dependencies.
Oh but first you need to create a venv or everything will be global. Why isn’t that local by default like with npm? Hell if I know!
Ah but before that I need to install the RIGHT version of Python. The one I already have likely won’t do. And that takes AGES.
Oh but even then still just tells me the command is invalid. Ah, great, I live CLIs. Now I’ve gotta figure out PATH variables again and add python there. Also pip maybe?
Now I can follow the readme’s instructions! Assuming I remember to manually open the venv first.
But it only gives me errors about missing pieces. Ugh. But I thought I installed the pip dependencies!
Oh, but turns out there’s something about a text file full of another different set of dependencies that I need to explicitly mention via CLI or they won’t be installed. And the readme didn’t mention that, because that’s apparently “obvious”. No it’s not; I’m just a front-end developer trying to run the darn thing.
Okay. Now it runs. Finally. But there’s a weird error. There might be something wrong with my .env file. Maybe if I add a print statement to debug… Why isn’t it showing up?
Oooh, I need to fully rebuild if I want it to show up, and the hot reload functionality that you can pass a command line argument for doesn’t work… Cool cool cool cool.
Yeah package system is a nightmare in python I’m so spoiled if Rust that I find it hard to enjoy another language…
yeah, all that setup sucks even after being writing python for years.
Nowadays I’ve been running every project with
uvand it’s a much better and faster experience, usually in 3 steps: 1. initialize, 2. add dependencies, 3. run project:# if the project doesn't already have a pyproject.toml with dependencies, initialize it # uv will also install the right interpreter if not present: uv init --python 3.13 # anything you would install with pip, use uv add: uv add dep1 dep2 # run the project / script uv run main.pyThen in future runs (as long as you have the pyproject.toml), you can just do
uv run main.py(shorthand touv run python main.py), even when there’s no venv created. No more activating virtual envs. No more long interpreter installations. No more accidentally messing with system’s packages or the PATH variable. With theuv.lockthat’s also a lot more reliable to reproduce thanrequirements.txtand similar.This does not reflect my experience with python at all. Except the version thing used to be a thing. Not really any more.
This has way more to do with that specific project being poorly written/not documenting things well than any shortcomings in Python
