The military coup in Niger has raised concerns about uranium mining in the country by the French group Orano, and the consequences for France's energy independence.
The bulk of the generation from wind and solar, and nuclear for 15% - 20% base load. Also some Geothermal where cheap but it’s potential is small.
Grids improved to cover local and intermediate renewable generation, and extended to facilitate import/export.
Variable electricity pricing for demand shifting.
The result is vastly reduced need for storage, probably batteries used intelligently in a hierarchy of grid and home, compared to the naïve “just build wind and solar and batteries.”
Then add in:
A 90% transition from personal cars to free green public transport (#FGPT), taxis, e-bikes, bicycles, and walking.
This all needs no new technology (although for nuclear there are several advances not yet used at scale: molten salt, small, modular, U238, thorium), it needs a fraction of the rare earths, and delivers a huge in reduction steel production courtesy of car recycling.
[P.S. Dams damage eco-systems so I’m not in favour of more hydro generation, and pumped hydro storage needs the spare water too.
Biomass not “net zero” and obviously not “zero” which we actually need. It’s just more carbon burning plus extra pollution from the agriculture and other products of combustion. It increases land use, and at present the industry is full of corruption with trees being burned sometimes alongside shredded car tyres… and subsidised!]
Thanks for this. You have raised many interesting points and are obviously very knowledgeable.
I think #H2 may also be a read herring also. At the moment the cost of green hydrogen is so much higher than blue hydrogen, the cynic in me is wondering if this is just an excuse to rebrand fossil fuels
If my calculations about battery tech are correct we will have lots of #batteries very soon.
Batteries are great for short term storage (Hours to Days), but the further you are from the equator, the more you need seasonal storage.
Hydrogen possibly fits part of that, if it is produced by electrolysis when wind / solar are in surplus.
Problems are:
how to store it, it leaks through most storage containers, requires vast amounts of energy to liquify and
The round trip from Electricity via H2 to Electricity is very inefficient.
the cynic in me is wondering if this is just an excuse to rebrand fossil fuels
That’s exactly what it is. Hydrogen power plants are just trojan horses for methane. Since they can burn one as well as the other, but CH4 is much more economically convenient.
“Most recently, state-run Enova awarded EUR 61 million for five green hydrogen production plants, referred to as hubs, along the Norwegian coastline from north to south. The hubs will be an essential part of #Norway’s clean hydrogen infrastructure and connect Norwegian players with the #EU#hydrogen valleys emerging in #Europe”
Without klicking anything, 61 million € is practically nothing, so I do not expect this to be a big, impactful project. It might be a nice little extra income from surplus hydro power (Norway is almost completely running on hydro).
Then looking into the links, this supports just a small fleet of up to 40 ships. Which is good.
I think it can be a good way for this niche, and it might be one little thing less to worry about.
nuclear uses lots of energy to build. Even windmills use fibreglass.
It may be more expensive to build, but not because it’s more energy intensive. Especially when you look at capacity. It is by far the most efficient source, requiring much less material and energy per generation capacity.
That’s a big claim, and having watched a #nuclear power station being built I struggle to agree. Especially if you look at full life cycle from mining uranium to disposal.
Also most of the work with a #windmill is establishing the site. Once done repairs and upgrades are cheap.
And #renewables are quick. Chuck a spare at it and you’ll have useful energy in a few months. The main problem in the UK is government obstructing them.
I’m challenging the claim about energy use, not cost. Uranium mining is a rounding error in this regard.
What you’re missing from seeing a power station being built is how much energy it produces. Being conservative, a single reactor generates as much energy as around 1000 wind turbines. And that’s without taking into account the full life cycle, which can probably 3-4x that number.
The energy density numbers of nuclear power are such completely different orders of magnitude to other energy sources that people usually have trouble understanding them in real world terms.
Well zeros can make a big difference and the cost is not to be sniffed at. Our local reactor is looking to cost 40 billion. You could run every school and hospital in Wales for 2 years with that amount of money and have spare change to build a couple of tidal lagoons.
You can easily build 1000 wind turbines for the cost of one reactor and do it in less time.
Again, I’m not talking of costs, that’s a whole different discussion. Only pointing out the environmental impact. Although I very much believe in a few decades we’re going to find out the hard way how much more expensive it is not to have spent the money now, and we’re going to be wishing we did.
I assume you are talking about #embodied energy and found this.
But I would say embodied energy of renewables or #nuclear is almost irrelevant as it is a one off. It’s an investment so will reap a massive reward in CO2 reduction year on year.
However, cost is a real problem for nuclear. And in terms of scaling up fast, #wind & #solar seem best.
Investing only in what’s fast is the kind of short sighted thinking that has put us in this situation in the first place. We need diversity on the grid if we’re serious about decarbonising. But also, Japan and South Korea can build nuclear plants in 4-5 years, why can’t we?
@MattMastodon @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel
The optimum imho is:
The bulk of the generation from wind and solar, and nuclear for 15% - 20% base load. Also some Geothermal where cheap but it’s potential is small.
Grids improved to cover local and intermediate renewable generation, and extended to facilitate import/export.
Variable electricity pricing for demand shifting.
The result is vastly reduced need for storage, probably batteries used intelligently in a hierarchy of grid and home, compared to the naïve “just build wind and solar and batteries.”
Then add in:
This all needs no new technology (although for nuclear there are several advances not yet used at scale: molten salt, small, modular, U238, thorium), it needs a fraction of the rare earths, and delivers a huge in reduction steel production courtesy of car recycling.
#Energy #Renewables #ClimateCrisis #Climate #Nuclear
[P.S. Dams damage eco-systems so I’m not in favour of more hydro generation, and pumped hydro storage needs the spare water too.
Biomass not “net zero” and obviously not “zero” which we actually need. It’s just more carbon burning plus extra pollution from the agriculture and other products of combustion. It increases land use, and at present the industry is full of corruption with trees being burned sometimes alongside shredded car tyres… and subsidised!]
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@MattMastodon @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Ardubal @Sodis
Tesla marketing heaven.
#FGPT
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@Pampa @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Ardubal @Sodis
So
One #nuclear power station will buy about a million #electric cars. Most #EVs have a 300km range but most days go <30km.
So the mean available #energy capacity of all these cars would run the #UK for 24 hours using #V2G (Vehicle to grid)
This could be a massive #car share scheme with a couple of EVs on every street
Or #electricbuses
All the energy could come from #wind or #solar and the #battery fills the gaps when there is no wind
#climate
@MattMastodon @Pampa @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Sodis
A few points to factor in:
- A nuclear power station has a much longer lifetime than batteries, solar panels, and wind turbines.
- You need not only the batteries, but also the panels/turbines to fill them.
- Conversion and storage losses are significant. Attached is a rough overview for H₂.
- Transmission infrastructure costs to/from individual cars are significant.
- 24 h is not enough by far to balance out usual fluctuations.
@Ardubal @Pampa @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Sodis
Thanks for this. You have raised many interesting points and are obviously very knowledgeable.
I think #H2 may also be a read herring also. At the moment the cost of green hydrogen is so much higher than blue hydrogen, the cynic in me is wondering if this is just an excuse to rebrand fossil fuels
If my calculations about battery tech are correct we will have lots of #batteries very soon.
More than we would need for a few days
Very soon
@MattMastodon @Ardubal @Pampa @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Sodis
Batteries are great for short term storage (Hours to Days), but the further you are from the equator, the more you need seasonal storage.
Hydrogen possibly fits part of that, if it is produced by electrolysis when wind / solar are in surplus.
Problems are:
how to store it, it leaks through most storage containers, requires vast amounts of energy to liquify and
The round trip from Electricity via H2 to Electricity is very inefficient.
@MattMastodon @Ardubal @Pampa @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Sodis
A thought,
I wouldn’t completely write methane, LPG , or any other petrochemical, off yet, as a seasonal storage medium.
They are a lot easier to store and transport than H2.
They can be produced from green H2 + captured CO2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanation
We have a lot of existing infrastructure which can use them.
That is of course If we can produce enough surplus Solar / Wind to make them.
https://www.power-technology.com/features/eth-zurich-fuel-air-and-sunlight/
That’s exactly what it is. Hydrogen power plants are just trojan horses for methane. Since they can burn one as well as the other, but CH4 is much more economically convenient.
@Ardubal @Pampa @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Sodis
What do you think of this?
“Most recently, state-run Enova awarded EUR 61 million for five green hydrogen production plants, referred to as hubs, along the Norwegian coastline from north to south. The hubs will be an essential part of #Norway’s clean hydrogen infrastructure and connect Norwegian players with the #EU #hydrogen valleys emerging in #Europe”
https://businessnorway.com/articles/norway-invests-big-realise-clean-hydrogen-future
@MattMastodon @Pampa @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Sodis
Without klicking anything, 61 million € is practically nothing, so I do not expect this to be a big, impactful project. It might be a nice little extra income from surplus hydro power (Norway is almost completely running on hydro).
Then looking into the links, this supports just a small fleet of up to 40 ships. Which is good.
I think it can be a good way for this niche, and it might be one little thing less to worry about.
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deleted by creator
It may be more expensive to build, but not because it’s more energy intensive. Especially when you look at capacity. It is by far the most efficient source, requiring much less material and energy per generation capacity.
@Claidheamh
That’s a big claim, and having watched a #nuclear power station being built I struggle to agree. Especially if you look at full life cycle from mining uranium to disposal.
Also most of the work with a #windmill is establishing the site. Once done repairs and upgrades are cheap.
And #renewables are quick. Chuck a spare at it and you’ll have useful energy in a few months. The main problem in the UK is government obstructing them.
And they’re still being built.
I’m challenging the claim about energy use, not cost. Uranium mining is a rounding error in this regard.
What you’re missing from seeing a power station being built is how much energy it produces. Being conservative, a single reactor generates as much energy as around 1000 wind turbines. And that’s without taking into account the full life cycle, which can probably 3-4x that number.
The energy density numbers of nuclear power are such completely different orders of magnitude to other energy sources that people usually have trouble understanding them in real world terms.
@Claidheamh
Well zeros can make a big difference and the cost is not to be sniffed at. Our local reactor is looking to cost 40 billion. You could run every school and hospital in Wales for 2 years with that amount of money and have spare change to build a couple of tidal lagoons.
You can easily build 1000 wind turbines for the cost of one reactor and do it in less time.
Of course, when they get fusion going…
Again, I’m not talking of costs, that’s a whole different discussion. Only pointing out the environmental impact. Although I very much believe in a few decades we’re going to find out the hard way how much more expensive it is not to have spent the money now, and we’re going to be wishing we did.
@Claidheamh
We certainly need to spend the money now on #renewables to get #ZeroCarbon and mitigate #climate breakdown.
I assume you are talking about #embodied energy and found this.
But I would say embodied energy of renewables or #nuclear is almost irrelevant as it is a one off. It’s an investment so will reap a massive reward in CO2 reduction year on year.
However, cost is a real problem for nuclear. And in terms of scaling up fast, #wind & #solar seem best.
https://www.carbonbrief.org/solar-wind-nuclear-amazingly-low-carbon-footprints/
That’s exactly what I’m talking about, yes.
Investing only in what’s fast is the kind of short sighted thinking that has put us in this situation in the first place. We need diversity on the grid if we’re serious about decarbonising. But also, Japan and South Korea can build nuclear plants in 4-5 years, why can’t we?
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