Was just casually checking out some videos from this voice coach lady… when suddenly I find out she’s trans too! Kinda makes me feel inspired, with progress like that.
Zheanna is great. For anyone looking to get started her voice feminization for absolute beginners video is great. For anyone just getting started my biggest recommendation would be don’t try to make a fem voice with these exercises, just try to hit the individual targets. And whatever you do, DON’T STRAIN!
Further reminders. Stop drinking caffeine, alcohol, smoking and remember to drink water.
Oh, ok. So this might not be an option after all.
“I thought what I’d do was, I’d pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes. That way I wouldn’t have to have any voice training”
I guzzle coffee like it’s water and my voice is ok. Things like this are very much the side things that can help, but won’t make or break your overall success
Wait, why no caffeine or alcohol? I thought only smoking harmed your voice?
I don’t know about caffeine (though it will dehydrate you), but everything you swallow touches the muscles involved in speaking, and I know when I’ve been drinking my voice gets hoarse as heck. When I used to drink heavily I called my mother once and she asked if I’d started smoking.
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Yeah those things might be healthy but I don’t see how it’s relevant to this discussion…
They dehydrate, which strains your voice when training
This is really cool stuff. I never knew how amazing the human body and mind is when discipline meets consistency.
This woman sounds like she was never born a man; her dead-voice is very masculine and her new voice is very impressive.
She wasn’t born a man. Trans women don’t “become” women. They stop hiding the fact they are
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She was assigned male at birth, but whether she was born a man or a woman or neither is something only she can say.
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The point being, being assigned male doesn’t mean she was ever a man. It means people assumed she was.
Yes, I’m not saying otherwise that she personally was.
Both “biological sex” and “legal gender” are considerably more nebulous than you’re assuming.
Let’s say you define “biological sex” by genotype, seems unambiguous enough, right? It’s a pretty good bet someone is 46,XX or 46,XY based on sex assigned at birth, but generally people don’t actually know for sure.
Likewise, in many jurisdictions, you don’t have a legal gender, you have a collection of gender markers. Ironically, trans people are often the only people who actually have an explicit declaration of their gender by a court or other legal mechanism. For cis people, the fact that it’s a fractured mess generally doesn’t matter.
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It’s true that I’m only familiar with two country’s legal systems (and both are common law jurisdictions), but as I understand it, your “legal gender” in the UK is only well-defined if you acquire a GRC, which is something only trans people do, and plain old doesn’t exist in the US. (To be fair, I imagine if you brought a discrimination case on the basis of gender in the UK your gender might be established as a result, but among the long list of things I am not is an attorney (anywhere, never mind in one of the UK’s multiple legal systems).)
Amusing, the letter that comes with the GRC asserts that it should suffice to establish your gender for any interested entities, which is decidedly false overseas.
So, this take is based entirely on thinking that a person is their body, rather than their brain. Cut off a person’s arm, and they’re still the same person. Cut out part of someone’s brain and they’re not.
Some people have poor eyesight, and we have ways to fix that. Some people have curved spines, and we have ways to fix that. Some peoples’ bodies develop the wrong genitals, which leads to developing with the wrong hormones, and we have ways to fix that.
People like BaroqueInMind are body focused: they think the person is what they can visibly see, not who they are inside, and I think that’s just the result of a society that stigmatizes caring about mental health, but also a limitation of the human experience: we can’t tell what’s going on inside someone’s mind, all we can see is how they present on the outside, and most people don’t have the tools required to think about people any other way.
To break it down though, if you took me and a friend, and put our brains in each-other’s bodies, which one would be me? My old body with my friend’s brain, or my friend’s body with my brain? To me, I am my mind, and to people like BaroqueInMind, I am my body. It should be easy to convince them otherwise, but people can be very stubborn when their beliefs are challenged.
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Why are you entering the LGBTQ community and challenging a queer person? Your post is six words long. This doesn’t garner a discussion. This shows no understanding of what modern science thinks. You’re responding to everyone asserting a statement which is frequently used by transphobic individuals. Why are you here? What do you wish to accomplish?
I wasn’t meaning to challenge anyone, I simply wanted to put in my understanding of how things work and try and better understand the life of a trans person. So I’m sorry if it came across as that as it was very much not intended, but if it’s transphobic then prove it and ban me for it, because I am not transphobic of all things…
In addition I was looking to maybe be educated rather than yelled at by you. But I guess fuck me for trying to learn right?
I want to believe that you truly want to learn. I am writing this comment under the assumption you’d like to learn effectively and didn’t mean any harm with your initial comment(s)
If you’re entering into discussion on a topic you’d like to learn about, it may be more beneficial to you, and less negative for others, if you ask questions instead of posing statements.
The mod isn’t trying to tell you that you’re transphobic - they’re just trying to tell you/give you a nudge that the thing you said is a very, very common transphobic piece of rhetoric.
As for the stern response in general - life as a trans person (or any member of the LGBTQ+ community, for that matter) at the moment is fucking scary. Several countries that were making huge steps toward better rights and equality and healthcare, are regressing at astonishing rates, and its putting our lives in danger.
Rhetoric along the lines of the sentiment you expressed is part of the general arsenal of the people spearheading action against LGBTQ+ folks’ existences, and when we start seeing it entering our community/ies, it’s so important to stamp that shit out fast, for one because we want the communities to feel safe, so swift, stern action must be taken, but also because if its allowed to take root in any way, that poses genuine threat to people’s lives.
I hope you find this constructive and educational, and that it helps avoid future accidents 😊
The mod isn’t trying to tell you that you’re transphobic - they’re just trying to tell you/give you a nudge that the thing you said is a very, very common transphobic piece of rhetoric.
They could have been a bit clearer and less hostile but I understand why, especially considering how common it otherwise is on the internet.
And so I can be educated, what was exactly wrong with what I said? I never denied that she was a woman in any way but I guess 6 words is probably way too few to get any of what I intended across in my initial comment. And thank you for taking me genuinely and being kind, it really means a lot to me right now.
I can’t remember precisely what your wording was, only the sentiment it expressed, and I believe that sentiment was along the lines of “she was born a man”.
The trans experience (in fact, the experience of gender for any human being) is varied, personal and unique to each person, and as such there is nobody on this earth who can say what gender she was when she was younger is her.
Doctors and other medical professionals could have taken a look at what sex characteristics she exhibited at birth, and decided that mostly fits into the bucket of “male”. For the majority of people gender and sex line up neatly, and as such the two are often conflated as being the same thing.
To assert that she was “born a man” you must make this incorrect assumption that gender and sex assignment are the same concepts - but this is false (and harmful to propagate)
She was assigned male at birth (presumably) and she may have experienced gender as a boy/man for quite some time growing up, or she may have always felt something wasn’t quite righ, or she might have had some completely unique experience of gender that I could never even dream up as an example for you. The only person who can say if she was born a man is her. Doctors can say if she was born with male sex characteristics.
I know I’m repeating myself somewhat, but I hope this helps.
Edit: I knew I’d forget something as well.
Even if your sentiment had been “she was born a male” (which, god, you’d have to know her quite privately to be able to know that!), its not a particularly useful thing to bring to the conversation, and allusions to trans folks expressed sex characteristics that may not align with the gender they identify with is generally a bit of a dick move. Like a more intense version of telling a cis woman they have a manly face, I guess. And, a more appropriate way of expressing it if it is relevant to the conversation, is simply, “assigned male at birth”.
Apologies I don’t always have a ton of time to explain to everyone exactly what they did wrong. In this case you entered a thread about minorities and made an assertion about their lives to challenge a narrative they presented. If you had educated yourself on this issue first, you would quickly find this is a narrative often imposed on transgender individuals, one which directly effects their lives and one in which the person being discriminated against is often having to explain to the majority why their assumption is incorrect and how they are being harmed by it. If you are not the person being effected by a system you need to educate yourself before engaging with someone who is effected by the system. If your goal is to come and gather info, you should be on your best behavior- this means thanking them for engaging with you, realizing you’re asking for their valuable time and energy and experience, asking questions in a very polite manner, and never attacking or making any assumptions about them.
With that being said, the general statement asserting someones sex or gender was an assumption about their life. You don’t know what their legal papers say or even what country they are from. You definitely do not know their genetic information and it seems like you’re not particularly knowledgeable about intersex individuals or the nuances of genetics and expression. If your intention was to reflect upon what society likely did to this person, the language needs to reflect that- for example you can state that they likely received a gender on their paperwork because a doctor decided it based primarily on the person’s external appearance at time of birth. That’s a very different statement from ‘they are genetically this gender/sex’.
If you’re looking to be educated, don’t make assertions about someone else’s life - instead, ask questions.
I will make sure to do that in the future then, my apoolgies again.
No worries! The fact that you’re willing to engage shows your good faith. I’m glad you’re around 💜
Different people use different words about their transition, and I think you’re imposing your own experience onto others. To say that trans women categorically weren’t men in the past totally invalidates how I have always described my transition. I don’t share your experience, and I don’t describe my past self the way you seem to think I should.
I was comfortable with my gender, and I don’t think it was invalid for me to have identified as a boy. That’s not who I am now, but that doesn’t invalidate my identity for the first 16 years of my life. And I think if speaking, behaving, or filling the social role of a male doesn’t make it valid to say that I used to be a boy, then that feels invalidating to everything I thought made me a woman. :/
But I think all of this is heavily philosophical and subjective, so I’m not saying your feelings are wrong either. But to say that the only way for trans people to be is the way you perceive them to be is not just silly, it runs the risk of invalidating everyone else who doesn’t share your feelings on the matter. Our identities are our own to express, not yours.
Different people use different words about their transition, and I think you’re imposing your own experience onto others.
If a gender diverse person tells me that their gender changed, then their gender changed.
If a cis person is assuming that a person’s gender has changed just because they transitioned, I’m going to correct them, because when held in ignorance, that’s a position that is generally based on harmful ideas about the trans experience. And if they’re interested in discussing it further, we can have a discussion of the nuance of how it all works.
Letting a cis person assume that all trans people’s gender changes when they transition does more harm than good IMO.
But to say that the only way for trans people to be is the way you perceive them to be
I am quite explicitly not saying this. If your gender changed, it changed :)
If a gender diverse person tells me that their gender changed, then their gender changed.
The problem is that you’re assuming the past gender of trans women categorically.
But to say that the only way for trans people to be is the way you perceive them to be
I am quite explicitly not saying this.
You said:
She wasn’t born a man. Trans women don’t “become” women. They stop hiding the fact they are
I’m trying to tell you that this claim is not just wrong, but it’s a harmful over-generalization. I was not a girl for the first ~12-16 years of my life, and that’s why I’m telling you our identities (past and present) are ours to determine, not yours. I was a boy, I did become a girl. I was comfortably cis for a long time, but things changed as I grew up.
Reading this stuff today only serves to drag those anxieties back up, because if we assume your claim is true then I either wasn’t a boy back then, or I’m not a trans woman now. I have to sit here and think about how you’re wrong, and why trans people don’t have to have always been trans in order to transition and be valid.
That’s what motivated me to respond to you. Whether or not you’re willing to grapple with the idea that you may be hurting people is your prerogative, I’m just telling you those claims have done harm to me in the past and may be harmful to others now, specifically young people.
Wait, you were looking for voice coaching from someone you thought was a cis woman?
Is that a thing?
Yes? Lol, I’m a little perplexed that you’re perplexed by that?
But I guess it’s a little niche. And not specifically focused for transition. I’m not surprised at all that she’s a musician because my own vocal training was also in the context of music. But I used that training extensively outside of my singing (and still do).
It’s funny because my vocal coach used to absolutely harangue me about deepening my voice. But as a female presenting person in the business world (in the 90s), that was necessary for survival. And I was deeply uncomfortable with my feminine sounding voice when I was younger. I’ve grown to accept it more now, although I still lower and project my voice at work or in other situations where I need to make myself be taken seriously.
That vocal training also allowed me to selectively “turn off” my native Appalachian accent - another thing that gets you nowhere in a lot of professional settings. But I slip back into it when I’m really tired or when I’m talking to my dad lol
my own vocal training was also in the context of music
Is this where I admit that I forgot that is a thing? :)
Hahaha
I’d like to throw in there that vocal training is a large part of acting training as well. I took classes like this. In fact in one we spent the whole first semester doing a little stretching routine, laying on the floor and then “moaning” or vocalizing for about an hour. (In the follow up class we started working on words, phonetics, and speaking) The whole idea is that much like how we are trained and ingrained with behaviors from society, so too is our voice a history of expectations, trauma, ect. Simply the way we hold tension in our bodies we cut off certain parts from vibrating and this results in different sounds. By vocalizing openly we found our unimpeded resonant frequency so that we could unlearn our lifetime of habits (this also includes social habits that effect how we sound and connect with another-- e.g. not holding your breath in preparation to speak something you are planning to respond when someone else is talking, it opens you up to listen, or tension from being told to sit up straight as a kid) and physical trauma. Only then could we see all the possibilities so we could make choices about how we wanted our voice to be. Everyone sounded different after that class. Sometimes really intense emotions trauma and otherwise would be released as parts of ones body finally let go. I remember just bursting out laughing in the middle one day, and there were several days I cried. It was the most centering class I’ve ever taken. And after that I liked my voice, I liked feeling it in my body, like a friend giving a vibrating hug
If anyone is further interested theres a fantastic book we read called “The Right to Speak: Working with the Voice” By Patsy Rodenburg that talks in great detail about these ingrained vocal habits
Most Speech Pathologists in my country are cishet women.
To my WA Au friends the Curtin Adult Speech Centre is / was free. I’m sure there are other great places but I haven’t looked into it.
I know you got your answer but speech training is also useful for people who do a lot of public speaking. It’s not all about pitch (or resonance), a lot of these lessons could benefit everyone.
Also why my (Canadian) health insurance doesn’t cover any gender affirming care, but it does cover speech therapy.
Remember when chapo trap house Lemmy banned trans people from the instance for being transphobic for not aligning with their narrow view of what it is to be trans?
I do.
I’m not sure whether that was meta commentary on my reply, or a reply to the wrong person, but either way, I’m not sure I understand how it connects to my comment
Hexbear blew itself up for rejecting elements of our own community. I think its worth meditating on the result of expecting others to have the same views as you about living trans.
Let’s be nice to each other and be supporting of the experience whether we see cishet woman for voice or choose not to.
We have to fight transphobia ever day. But, please, not against each other.
The original comment seemed more inquisitive and confused than judgemental or expectant. The best way to learn about and appreciate other perspectives is to ask questions, no?
I believe we are all protective of the trans community in our own way. Sometimes overprotective.
Safe travels comrade.
Trust me, I understand your caution. Safe travels!
I think you may have misunderstood my response. I was expressing surprise at the idea of a cishet woman offering trans voice training, because it’s not something I’ve encountered before. There was no gatekeeping involved.
Out of curiosity, is most of your exposure to people doing voice training for trans folks online?
My default assumption would be most providers are cis, but I have approximately zero exposure to online voice resources and my limited exposure to IRL professionals has been entirely cis people. (A quick google does not tell me whether the authors of The Voice Book for Trans and Non-Binary People are cis, which seems to be the “modern” book rec.)
Out of curiosity, is most of your exposure to people doing voice training for trans folks online?
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I know there are speech pathologists etc out there who do speech work etc, but in the context of “voice training” the first thing I think of is trans voice training.
This is fascinating. I’m cishet and still stupid, but I had no idea what kind of work went into changing your voice. I mean, I still mostly don’t, since all of the jargon she used made no sense to me, but still.
Random extra tip - others have said that voice training isn’t just about the pitch, but a dimension to pitch that can be easy to miss is that women tend to speak with a wider range of pitch — a greater amount of riding and falling in tones. I used to speak with a monotone and this was something I noticed that changed a lot of how people viewed me.
It’s interesting that in her latest videos – 3 years after this one – her voice sounds much more well-rounded and smooth. She’s dropped some of that high nasal sound.
The reality, I think, is that we are all always training our voices to address the social situations that we find ourselves in.
Personally, I’ve found voice training pretty hard. I definitely sound different than i used to, but I struggle. When i talk to people i just sort of talk. I’m not really usually thinking about it in a performative sense, and honestly taking that more relaxed disposition is where a lot of my confidence comes from. The moment I’m trying to focus on those sort of little details it gets replaced with self-consciousness.
A common mistake is relying too much on pitch. You need to tighten your throat to change the resonance and then veeery slightly increase the pitch to your desired level. I found a little hack to get my throat ready was to sing the “where are you? and I’m so sorry” line from Blink 182’s song I Miss You, or really just any pop-punk voice. Sing it and then try to hold your throat muscles in that spot and then you just have to pitch your voice up a bit but don’t overdo it on the pitch, cis women are not actually as high pitched as you might think, it’s mostly the throat (and vocal resonance) that’s doing most of the work there.
One thing that helped me was the suggestion to pretend to swallow (the feeling), and pay attention to where your larynx (or just the adams apple) goes, and that’s the first step to being able to keep it up there manually, and eventually unconsciously.
Huh, neat.
Eh, I’ve plateaued. Can’t speak loud or laugh, but if I try really hard someone may correctly gender me on the phone.
I found it a little off putting that she reacted to her old male voice with disgust. It kinda reinforces the idea that being trans is just another type of image disorder.
@sibloure Some people don’t like their own masculine voice. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I once tried to see if i could still do my old voice just to compare and it almost made me vomit. I can very much understand being disgusted by your old voice. It’s not really something you can control
