Why mention that you dont have the resources if you are not pretending that you would be for helping them if you could. It is just an excuse to try and hide the fact that you care more about one population then another simply on the basis on their nationality. I hope you understand how racist that is. Not that I accept the notion that civilian unarmed refugees are somehow a threat to the Schengen zone and a “National security”, which is most common anti-imigrant rethoric, but how is that ever a higher priority then lives of an entire nation of civilans.

“there’s more to consider than the lives of these refugees or any that would follow” of course, comfort and stolen wealth of the EU is top priority, Lives of human beings are always secondary to profit.

“Just out of curiosity, where are you from?” I know better then to tell a racist where I am from, so they can somehow make assumtions based on my nationality.

So winters in a filed as a solider is somehow safer then under a bridge in a city?

Anti-migrant racism is strong in these comments. It is amazing how easily people who consider themselves left-wing turn to racism when it helps them politically.

So it is ok to let people die because of a chance they will illegally cross to other countries?

I hope you are aware of how racist it is to call someone degenerate because they live in a certain country.

Great, then Estonia should accept more refugees and there is no reason to worry about EU having a problem with it.

You’ll note that at no point did I claimed that you said turning them away is in their best interests. But it is reasonable to assume that you where making a claim that closing borders is because Estonia can’t help them and not because it is not in Estonia’s interests. When you give arguments about not being able to help while discussing border politics, it is reasonable to assume that you are giving a reason for that policy and not just talking for unrelated reason. So if the reason is that borders cant open because you cant help them then borders are closed for allegedly their own good as they will not be helped in Estonia. If it is in their interest to open the borders then that is helping them and therefor Estonia can help. Of course it isn’t much help if you are simply not hurting them by trapping them inside their country, but still. When you frame a comment to be about helping them, it is obviously implied that you are concerned with their wellbeing and therefor their interests.

Simply as you used different wording when you told me that I said that you claimed turning them away is in their best interest, so did I. Communication is based on some assumptions and framing things from your point of view, it hard to communicate otherwise.

Also, I am ignoring that you don’t have resources for helping them, because it is simply not a point of the article. We are talking about not letting them come in, not necessarly do they need help. Maybe they can catch a plain, maybe some do have Visas, it is not impossible. And when talking about human lives during war, we should be more willing to help.

Besides, I understand that there are a lot of already housed migrants and that is great. But also if they have been there for sometime and some migrants haven’t been there at all, would be good to help those already housed reloacate to rest of EU so there is more space for new migrants. After all, I am certain that the rest of EU will more gladly help Ukranin migrants than Russian ones, so focusing on helping them is good. If really the argument is simply not being able to help and etc. The problem is that all of these things are perfectly reasonably solved and that it is clear that intentions aren’t really economical, but political.

So they can’t stop Estonia from accepting more refugees?

And Estonia could accept people that have their own finances or people that are allowed passage in other countires and etc. There are many ways to work on this if you actually care about these people to help and solve a problem. If all countries acted this way, I won’t help because aren’t helping enough, we are going to be in a big trouble. I would complain to US and China if this was a post about that and someone was defending their positions, we can turn this discussion as well into, ask others to help as well, instead of just defending this wrong decision by Estonia. Estonian government, if they really care, could put pressure on EU, China or US. You seem to be more focused on China and US, but reallisticly it is the EU that has funds as well and is closer. We should focus on pressure to EU to help house these people, or allow them passage or something.

Besides, I think it is morally unjustifiable to be dependent on EU support so much to help you with these things in order to keep stuff comfortable for already rich people in Estonia, instead of sharing with those less fortunate and help as much as you can. It is better to fight for wellbeing of all people and help what you can, instead of being afraid that you will be kicked out from a selfish EU (if they refuse to help and share this isssue, they are selfish).

I agree, it would be. But instead of passing regulations to make Europe (just as rich and more populous that US) take refugees from countries they are in war with. Instead we are focusing on closing borders of other countries, not only so they can’t take refugees themselves, but to stop them from actually getting assylim in places they can, like EU. There is a difference in not fighting for right regulation to make a World more just, but to fight for new regulation that is making it less so, is definitely immoral.

If you insult when you are clearly exposed and with clear arguments shown to be wrong, you are showing not only bad intentions, but inability to accept a critique. I didn’t escalate this disscussion, you are the one that said to me that I am spreading propaganda. I proved i to be other way around and you can’t take the same insult that you unkustifiably directed at me, even though in your case it is true. Calling other people what you are is classic case of projecting your own problems.

Then let them pass through to the rest of the EU. In Europe there is a billion people. As for the wealth, I have no idea why you are comparing it to US. We are talking about whether they should be forced to stay in Russia and it is clear that per capita Estonia is richer then Russia.

This article isn’t about welfare to russian citizens, but about actually closing the borders so they are trapped. You are very determined to make it seem like it’s about best intentions and not being able to help, while the reality is that this is a decision to actively forbid any passage through a country. As for the real situation of wealth in Estonia, per capita Estonia is far richer then Russia and if citizens are not able to survive in Estonia, they will not be able to survive in Russia. Russia is also colder and at actual war. So I have no idea how you can pretend that you are doing them a service by actauly actively stopping them from making their own choice to go where they can for search of better life.

Literarly from the first article: “There is some truth to this. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, 14 Eastern European countries have joined NATO, four of them bordering Russia. Ukraine requested the chance to join via NATO’s Membership Action Plan in 2008, and the country’s initiative to join has only intensified since Russia’s invasion.” In the rest of the article they don’t debate about this being a reason for invasion, just claim that some Putin claims that are lies and exagarations (which of course they are, he is a politician). I will not spend time reading other articles since even the first one is clearly irrelevant and strawman, because some lies doesn’t mean the whole motivation of fear from NATO is not true. Also there is no other reasonable motivation.

And third link is literarlly from NATO website, its like giving link to Kremlin offical website for arguments against NATO. In which one of the first things that I saw was a obvious lie that NATO is not agressive, which you would have to be living under a rock not to know what NATO states are doing in middle east and millions of civilians they kill.

So as I said, you are a clear NATO warmongering propagandist.

And what is your oppinin why they invaded Ukraine? Because they are naturally evil? Because they are stupid and thought they could just take it over without NATO helping them? I have no access to Russian media, it is not propaganda. It is common sense. There is absoultely no argument against it.

We need to stick togheter and get rid of both Putin and NATO

in the same post I critize Putin as a well and it is clear that it is not Russian propaganda. But it is classic of NATO propagada to claim that if you cirituqe their wars in middle east, you are a russian propagandist, even if you critique Russia as well. They of course do same thing in Russia, where they say anyone who critiques their government is CIA spy.

Being NATO warmongering propagandist and calling for more russians to be deinied assylum so that they have to fight in a war so you can kill them in the battlefielled and get another country into NATO is far more dangerous. It is clear, for anyone following wars around the World, that NATO is the most warmongering power that has control over the majarotiy of the World. And if Russian government didn’t own nukes, thay would be inavded by now as well and there would only be one central goverment for the entire World, run by US.

Again Russian goverment is just as bad in intentions, but their power is far less threatning that what NATO is doing. I fear that even if this war in Ukraine stops, even more wars get started by NATO around the World and this planet is forever trapped in a constant state of warfare.

I am not saying it is the norm. I am saying it is right-wing, natonallistic and racist. Which is unfortuenately the norm. I am saying it is unethical and morally inexsusable, not that it is not normal.

It really can’t be interputed as anything else on the article about closing borders to russians fleeing the war.

That makes no sense. If you let people in and give them your citiznship then they are your citizens as well. It is nationalism, ethinic background, not some organisational problem of a country. Estonia can easly handle the influx, that is the point, it is ridiculous to claim otherwise and it is highly immoral and racist to prioritize people of one nationality over other. Resources are fine, it is one of the richest countries in the World. It is dishonest and maniplative when all right-wing policies (such as this) talk about lack of resources when we are talking about helping the working class, but when you need to give tax cuts to the rich or spend money on military, then all of a sudden money flows.

And NATO is a good guy? They invade countries far more often, that aren’t even close to their borders. It is even more clear that it is for oil then for some national secuirty. And most people in Ukraine are fine with joining NATO. Don’t fall for NATO propaganda that Russia is bad and you need to join their even more warmongering power. The reason in the first place why Russia is invading is because NATO is getting closer, which is exactly against all international deals made after the fall of the Berlin war. NATO should have been dispanded when Warsaw pact disbanded. But the hunger for power got them so close to a nuclear power, that it provoked them in a clearly unprofitable war for them. Geopolitics isn’t that simple that there are good and bad guys. They are all bad, some are just more powerful and can get away with more.

And people are never to blame and there is no reason to close borders for civilians. We can’t afford to not give a fuck about any civilans right now, because they are our only allies. The ruling class of Russia and NATO is what got us into this war and the people of both sides are against it. If we let this politics play out, there will be wars forever. We need to stick togheter and get rid of both Putin and NATO. Without that, we will just be in more war. Even if this war ends, Ukraine will have to join another NATO war in middle east. It will never be over.

Are you really comparing Jan 6 to fight against Putin? Do you know that leader of main opposition in Russia is in jail for simply being in opposition? Trump is still not in jail after a coup. Of course he can be removed from power, but don’t be ridicoulous with claims that people are just lazy or not brave enough. If you even start to organize to critique the goverment in Russia, you go to jail. It is a lot harder to actually form a movement when they arrest you so fast, as soon as you say that you are displeased, let along actually try to form a group for protest, let along an armed revolution. Of course it is possible, but lets not be ignorant and compare it to other regimes.