This is not how on boarding of new users works. If you put up a RTFM wall and intentionally make their installation fail they either just stick with Windows or use another more newbie friendly distro.
And Debian is a community driven distribution. It needs new users (who to a small percentage become contributors) all the time or it can’t survive.
Edit: also I don’t see how this is disrespecting your digital rights. If you feel so strongly about the issue you surely made your homework and only run hardware with libre firmware, so this has absolutely no effect on you.
If you think I am throwing a RTFM I think you are not even reading the first part of my comment. So, in order to understand me correctly, I recommend you to read it carefully part by part.
I don’t see how the second parragraph applies wrongly here.
About your edition, I am unsure if you understand how rights exist. A right, or mostly a natural right while not being guaranteed, is deducible from inalienable interests. These are interests born of aware individuals and are as basic as “I need to eat”.
In this digital world, other inalienable interests are born, and new rights deduced from them. The “4 freedoms” about the software are no more than a build of these rights in the same way the letter of the human rights try to do the same. That is all, no more complex than that.
Rights are also not based on claim. An individual should not claim every time they want their right guaranteed, that is plainly impossible with all individuals. Rights are guaranteed first and get available even before you need them.
By loading, trying and executing propietary software in the devices I use you are violating these rights.
There are manufacturers doing that? Sure.
That makes my fight useless because I already could have that being executed? No and pointing to that is a Nirvana fallacy itself: “as you are in shit, doesn’t matter what you do because everything would be like that”.
No my last point was different. At no point is Debian forcing you to use these non-Free firmwares. They are a purely optional inclusion in their installer for those people that do need to use them to get a functional system. Thus your digital rights are not negatively impacted at all.
Related to the inclusion of the installer, that is not what they meant AFAIK. The idea is loading and executing it when applicable, even if it is not needed (RTL 8188EE is an example) as was discussed previously in other voting or mailing list which I need to check.
Edited: it is also supported because, in offers to load the firmware, you must do it at boot time for the initialization of the hardware.
Granted there are some rare edge cases where both options exist, but after installing Debian you are free to revert any such non-Free firmware on your actual system.
I think you somehow maneuvered yourself into a illogical position without realizing it?
Including some optional firmwares in the install boot-medium infringes zero rights of yours and none of the 4 software freedoms are impacted by this.
Complain with the hardware vendors for making these firmwares a requirement if you will, but better not buy such hardware in the first place. But Debian absolutely did the right thing here to their current and future users by optionally including these non-free firmwares regardless of what some ideological demagogues say.
Including some optional firmwares in the install boot-medium infringes zero rights of yours and none of the 4 software freedoms are impacted by this.
Loading at boot time the firmware involves execution in applied hardware of software I have no power in.
Complain with the hardware vendors for making these firmwares a requirement if you will, but better not buy such hardware in the first place.
Doesn’t exclude that Debian did the worse thing. Options existed as I introduced before, and very obvious ones. If they needed help, I have no issues to provide it.
This is not how on boarding of new users works. If you put up a RTFM wall and intentionally make their installation fail they either just stick with Windows or use another more newbie friendly distro.
And Debian is a community driven distribution. It needs new users (who to a small percentage become contributors) all the time or it can’t survive.
Edit: also I don’t see how this is disrespecting your digital rights. If you feel so strongly about the issue you surely made your homework and only run hardware with libre firmware, so this has absolutely no effect on you.
If you think I am throwing a RTFM I think you are not even reading the first part of my comment. So, in order to understand me correctly, I recommend you to read it carefully part by part.
I don’t see how the second parragraph applies wrongly here.
About your edition, I am unsure if you understand how rights exist. A right, or mostly a natural right while not being guaranteed, is deducible from inalienable interests. These are interests born of aware individuals and are as basic as “I need to eat”.
In this digital world, other inalienable interests are born, and new rights deduced from them. The “4 freedoms” about the software are no more than a build of these rights in the same way the letter of the human rights try to do the same. That is all, no more complex than that.
Rights are also not based on claim. An individual should not claim every time they want their right guaranteed, that is plainly impossible with all individuals. Rights are guaranteed first and get available even before you need them.
By loading, trying and executing propietary software in the devices I use you are violating these rights.
There are manufacturers doing that? Sure. That makes my fight useless because I already could have that being executed? No and pointing to that is a Nirvana fallacy itself: “as you are in shit, doesn’t matter what you do because everything would be like that”.
No my last point was different. At no point is Debian forcing you to use these non-Free firmwares. They are a purely optional inclusion in their installer for those people that do need to use them to get a functional system. Thus your digital rights are not negatively impacted at all.
First of all, thank you for the clarification.
Related to the inclusion of the installer, that is not what they meant AFAIK. The idea is loading and executing it when applicable, even if it is not needed (RTL 8188EE is an example) as was discussed previously in other voting or mailing list which I need to check.
Edited: it is also supported because, in offers to load the firmware, you must do it at boot time for the initialization of the hardware.
Granted there are some rare edge cases where both options exist, but after installing Debian you are free to revert any such non-Free firmware on your actual system.
That is not how granting a right works. Damage of it is already made and no, there is no such thing as rare cases.
Additionally, the big part of the hardware in H-Node has non-free firmware available in the respective package, also embedded on boot.
I think you somehow maneuvered yourself into a illogical position without realizing it?
Including some optional firmwares in the install boot-medium infringes zero rights of yours and none of the 4 software freedoms are impacted by this.
Complain with the hardware vendors for making these firmwares a requirement if you will, but better not buy such hardware in the first place. But Debian absolutely did the right thing here to their current and future users by optionally including these non-free firmwares regardless of what some ideological demagogues say.
Loading at boot time the firmware involves execution in applied hardware of software I have no power in.
Doesn’t exclude that Debian did the worse thing. Options existed as I introduced before, and very obvious ones. If they needed help, I have no issues to provide it.
Only if you run hardware that requires it. That is not the fault of Debian and making this hardware available for use is better than not doing it.
I never pointed to you with ad hominems. Refrain to do that next time.
It is not my fault that you think that I am backed or not by some people like that, nor I should be the victim for such a case.
I didn’t mean you personally with that, sorry if that was not clear.