Tell this to the people from the former USSR/Eastern Block. I’m not saying communism can’t work in any way, but I am saying that, at least historically, it has not worked.
Why do you say “historically it has not worked,” then vaguely gesture towards people who believe it very much did work better than their current Capitalism?
You mean the vote that was boycotted by 6 of the 15 soviet occupied countries due to how it was phrased among other things? There was no independence option in the referendum, just how should the USSR be preserved.
Also most of the Easter European countries voted to declare independence shortly after.
I was around 20 at the time and in one of the boycotting countries. We later had a vote for independence, I think the support was around 80% or 90%.
You mean the vote that was boycotted by 6 of the 15 soviet occupied countries due to how it was phrased among other things? There was no independence option in the referendum, just how should the USSR be preserved.
The graphic shows that. It’s true that at the time, the vast majority of people voted to retain it, and the vast majority of people wish it never dissolved, which is why I included both metrics.
Also most of the Easter European countries voted to declare independence shortly after.
Crucially, Gorbachev and Yeltsin had been liberalizing and destroying the USSR from within, like the creation of a secondary Presidential position that stood against the centralized system and overly beauracratized it. The coup of 1991 further lost people’s faith in the government and they seceded, but they did not get to vote on being Socialist or not in the aftermath.
Then came Shock Therapy and roughly 7 million deaths due to the adoption of Capitalism against the will of the people.
I was around 20 at the time and in one of the boycotting countries. We later had a vote for independence, I think the support was around 80% or 90%.
Based on what you’ve told me about yourself, you may want to look at the figure again, but I won’t dox you.
Yea, the first link was just how people felt like a while ago when a lot of ex soviet countries were still struggling over a decade ago. That would make sense too, if an economic union collapses your country is fucked for a while. Like if the EU collapsed it would have even more severe consequences and any poll would give similar results for decades to come.
I don’t know why they would vote for socialism suddenly during the votes for independence. If Russia couldn’t do that with 60 years of killing, imprisoning, slaving and deporting political dissidents, artists, scientists, gays, jews and people not ethnically russian than a referendum for independence ain’t gonna make socialism happen either. I guess giving people the ability to vote was rather new but yea, it didn’t make socialism happen either.
Yea, the first link was just how people felt like a while ago when a lot of ex soviet countries were still struggling over a decade ago.
Communism and Socialism are still more preferred than Capitalism for the majority of ex-soviets.
That would make sense too, if an economic union collapses your country is fucked for a while. Like if the EU collapsed it would have even more severe consequences and any poll would give similar results for decades to come.
Depends, if the EU shifts to Socialism it will probably repeat polling in AES states with mass popular support, what you’re describing would probably happen if it collapsed into fascism or barbarism.
I don’t know why they would vote for socialism suddenly during the votes for independence.
During the independence votes, the only indicator was that the State would become independent, not that it would become Capitalist. Where are you getting the idea that Socialism was unpopular?
If Russia couldn’t do that with 60 years of killing, imprisoning, slaving and deporting political dissidents, artists, scientists, gays, jews and people not ethnically russian than a referendum for independence ain’t gonna make socialism happen either.
Killing and imprisoning fascists was a good thing. I don’t know what you mean by “make Socialism happen,” it was already Socialist. They wanted to keep Socialism. Additionally, Double Genocide Theory is Nazi apologia and ahistorical. Same with the idea that the USSR was “enslaving people.”
An Anarchist carrying water for the Nazis, color me surprised.
An ML not knowing what double genocide theory is is equally unsurprising. It’s the claim that the USSR committed atrocities to a similar scale as the nazies. I never even mentioned the nazies.
Many gulags were forced labor camps, also known as slavery.
You claimed the USSR was murdering jews and non-Russians en-masse, not hard to see that you were calling to Double Genocide Theory from that. If you want to correct your statements you can.
The USSR committed horrible atrocities but they weren’t as bad as the nazies, obviously. No idea why I have to clarify this, I never even mentioned the nazies.
I have no idea why ML always jump to double genocide when anyone mentiones bad things the soviets did.
Furthermore, the vast majority of people voted to retain the USSR
Wow, you’re telling me the people who were brainwashed into believing their country is the best (not saying it doesn’t happen nowadays (cough cough USA), voted to retain it?
In my country (Romania) the only point I hear people praising the communist regime about is infrastructure. Why? Because, as it turns out, it’s much easier to build infrastructure when you have slaves prisoners which you don’t have to pay. Of course, the corruption in our post-communist government doesn’t help either.
I agree, capitalism is VERY far from ideal, but, please, stop glazing the USSR regime just because it was “communist”.
Wow, you’re telling me the people who were brainwashed into believing their country is the best (not saying it doesn’t happen nowadays (cough cough USA), voted to retain it?
“Brainwashing” narratives are false, thought-terminating cliches. The people supported the economic system that had free healthcare and education, doubled life expectancies, dramatic improvements in science, made it to space, rapidly industrialized, and dramatically reduced inequality. The idea that they were simply “brainwashed” is an idealist, anti-materialist analysis.
In my country (Romania) the only point I hear people praising the communist regime about is infrastructure. Why? Because, as it turns out, it’s much easier to build infrastructure when you have slaves prisoners which you don’t have to pay. Of course, the corruption in our post-communist government doesn’t help either.
Even prisoners were paid in the USSR for forced labor, this is ahistorical.
I agree, capitalism is VERY far from ideal, but, please, stop glazing the USSR regime just because it was “communist”.
I don’t glaze the USSR, I dispel lies and myths about it in defense of Actually Existing Socialism.
The people supported the economic system that had free healthcare and education, doubled life expectancies, dramatic improvements in science, made it to space, rapidly industrialized, and dramatically reduced inequality.
Free healthcare still exists in all developed countries other than the US, life expectancies increased all over the world same with improvements in science, the space race was very close between the USSR and the US and the moon landing is very often brought up by US nationalists as well. I would say the industrialization was actually a bit too fast, people were, sometimes forcefully, relocated from rural areas to concrete boxes in cities. As for inequality, yes, there were no billionaires, and, while the quality of life for the poorest was maybe higher than it is today, I’d say the quality of life for average people was lower during communist time.
Even prisoners were paid in the USSR for forced labor, this is ahistorical.
While this may have been true at the beginning, later on, there were no wages. Still, conditions were very poor.
Tell this to the people from the former USSR/Eastern Block. I’m not saying communism can’t work in any way, but I am saying that, at least historically, it has not worked.
The vast majority of Eastern Europeans wished the USSR never dissolved. Furthermore, the vast majority of people voted to retain the USSR, then it was dissolved anyways.
Why do you say “historically it has not worked,” then vaguely gesture towards people who believe it very much did work better than their current Capitalism?
You mean the vote that was boycotted by 6 of the 15 soviet occupied countries due to how it was phrased among other things? There was no independence option in the referendum, just how should the USSR be preserved.
Also most of the Easter European countries voted to declare independence shortly after.
I was around 20 at the time and in one of the boycotting countries. We later had a vote for independence, I think the support was around 80% or 90%.
The graphic shows that. It’s true that at the time, the vast majority of people voted to retain it, and the vast majority of people wish it never dissolved, which is why I included both metrics.
Crucially, Gorbachev and Yeltsin had been liberalizing and destroying the USSR from within, like the creation of a secondary Presidential position that stood against the centralized system and overly beauracratized it. The coup of 1991 further lost people’s faith in the government and they seceded, but they did not get to vote on being Socialist or not in the aftermath.
Then came Shock Therapy and roughly 7 million deaths due to the adoption of Capitalism against the will of the people.
Based on what you’ve told me about yourself, you may want to look at the figure again, but I won’t dox you.
Yea, the first link was just how people felt like a while ago when a lot of ex soviet countries were still struggling over a decade ago. That would make sense too, if an economic union collapses your country is fucked for a while. Like if the EU collapsed it would have even more severe consequences and any poll would give similar results for decades to come.
I don’t know why they would vote for socialism suddenly during the votes for independence. If Russia couldn’t do that with 60 years of killing, imprisoning, slaving and deporting political dissidents, artists, scientists, gays, jews and people not ethnically russian than a referendum for independence ain’t gonna make socialism happen either. I guess giving people the ability to vote was rather new but yea, it didn’t make socialism happen either.
Communism and Socialism are still more preferred than Capitalism for the majority of ex-soviets.
Depends, if the EU shifts to Socialism it will probably repeat polling in AES states with mass popular support, what you’re describing would probably happen if it collapsed into fascism or barbarism.
During the independence votes, the only indicator was that the State would become independent, not that it would become Capitalist. Where are you getting the idea that Socialism was unpopular?
Killing and imprisoning fascists was a good thing. I don’t know what you mean by “make Socialism happen,” it was already Socialist. They wanted to keep Socialism. Additionally, Double Genocide Theory is Nazi apologia and ahistorical. Same with the idea that the USSR was “enslaving people.”
An Anarchist carrying water for the Nazis, color me surprised.
An ML not knowing what double genocide theory is is equally unsurprising. It’s the claim that the USSR committed atrocities to a similar scale as the nazies. I never even mentioned the nazies.
Many gulags were forced labor camps, also known as slavery.
You claimed the USSR was murdering jews and non-Russians en-masse, not hard to see that you were calling to Double Genocide Theory from that. If you want to correct your statements you can.
The USSR committed horrible atrocities but they weren’t as bad as the nazies, obviously. No idea why I have to clarify this, I never even mentioned the nazies.
I have no idea why ML always jump to double genocide when anyone mentiones bad things the soviets did.
Wow, you’re telling me the people who were brainwashed into believing their country is the best (not saying it doesn’t happen nowadays (cough cough USA), voted to retain it?
In my country (Romania) the only point I hear people praising the communist regime about is infrastructure. Why? Because, as it turns out, it’s much easier to build infrastructure when you have
slavesprisoners which you don’t have to pay. Of course, the corruption in our post-communist government doesn’t help either.I agree, capitalism is VERY far from ideal, but, please, stop glazing the USSR regime just because it was “communist”.
“Brainwashing” narratives are false, thought-terminating cliches. The people supported the economic system that had free healthcare and education, doubled life expectancies, dramatic improvements in science, made it to space, rapidly industrialized, and dramatically reduced inequality. The idea that they were simply “brainwashed” is an idealist, anti-materialist analysis.
Even prisoners were paid in the USSR for forced labor, this is ahistorical.
I don’t glaze the USSR, I dispel lies and myths about it in defense of Actually Existing Socialism.
Free healthcare still exists in all developed countries other than the US, life expectancies increased all over the world same with improvements in science, the space race was very close between the USSR and the US and the moon landing is very often brought up by US nationalists as well. I would say the industrialization was actually a bit too fast, people were, sometimes forcefully, relocated from rural areas to concrete boxes in cities. As for inequality, yes, there were no billionaires, and, while the quality of life for the poorest was maybe higher than it is today, I’d say the quality of life for average people was lower during communist time.
While this may have been true at the beginning, later on, there were no wages. Still, conditions were very poor.
Those Capitalist concessions are weakening in Social Democracies, and were only ever brought about by fear of revolt. The USSR paved the way for it.
Of course, there were good things which came out of the communist regime, but I wouldn’t say that “it worked”.
Why not? It absolutely did.