Especially when he was clearly alive while that religion and its teachings were still actively being demonstrated to be true every day and its adherents were shaping the galaxy.
EDIT: ITT people defending their space wizard fairy tales with Doylian arguments.
Did he know the emperor was a Sith who had powers, or was he just one of billions or trillions of people who had never actually interacted with anyone who openly used the force?
Sure, later movies made force use way more commonly used within a couple decades of this guy’s bold choice, but at the time of the movie’s release it was supposed to be an uncommon thing that hadn’t even been around for a very long time.
How long was it though - maybe a couple of decades?
It’s more like inside of an authoritarian regime, propaganda is quite strong - e.g. China is the good guy and there are no questions (allowed) about that.
It was about 19 years at the start of A New Hope. So if they talked to literally one person that was over the age of 30, they’d probably know that Jedi were very real. Not common outside of active war zones and the Jedi Temple, but real. The galaxy was huge, with plenty of relatively untouched planets with sparse populations, that were relatively untouched by the Empire’s influence. There were also plenty of planets that had people, but were able to just dismiss them as nuisances most of the time (Koboh and Tatooine for example).
The propaganda thing was definitely real and a problem, but likely far more common in the Inner and Mid rims. Still, even on Coruscant, the capital world, as flooded with the Empire’s influence as a planet could be, people just had to leave the surface and go to a slightly lower level to escape their influence.
From what I’ve seen, a large portion of the population knew that the Empire was restrictive and bad, but they just didn’t feel like they could do anything about it (like real life). So, it still doesn’t make sense for anyone to not believe that the Jedi were real, and imo, makes Han and this guy (forgot his name) the equivalent of flat earthers. Again, made sense at the time, but certainly not now.
If he did not have personal experience with force users, or had not seen them successfully use their abilities, that explains how he would not see them as being demonstrated in the current running of the empire. What he would see is a lot of people pulling off massive industrial and military accomplishments being dismissed by Vader as less important than the force, which is generally subtle and difficult to see by non-force users.
“Don’t try to frighten us with your sorcerer’s ways, Lord Vader! Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the rebels’ hidden fort—”
He is being dismissive of the effectiveness of the force based on his personal experiences, not denying its existence.
Fair enough. I had a really long response but it got deleted, so I’ll just summarize. If he knew a single one of Vader’s accomplishments (rumors of them were definitely spread by the witnesses), he would’ve never believed that. Vader served the important purpose of striking fear into those that would oppose the Empire, keeping most of the galaxy in line. He probably served as an officer in the Republic as well, possibly alongside the Jedi. Even if he didn’t, he’s in a room full of people that did. It’s ridiculously stupid to insult your extremely violent boss, especially about something that he’s provably correct about.
Speaking of flat earthers, did people believe that the Force did not exist, or merely claim that? In this particular case it seems like bravado, showing off for Moff Tarkin (I forget if he was Grand Moff at this point).
Unfortunately, I have no idea what the backstory of the character is. Maybe he was trying to do that, maybe not. I don’t think that Tarkin would’ve been impressed by not believing in the force (he served with Anakin Skywalker and the Jedi during the Clone Wars), but maybe he didn’t realize that.
Sure, later movies made force use way more commonly used within a couple decades of this guy’s bold choice, but at the time of the movie’s release it was supposed to be an uncommon thing that hadn’t even been around for a very long time.
The guy in the meme and Han Solo were just Straw Atheists I’m afraid.
Edit: “For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic, before the dark times. Before the Empire.” -Obi Wan in ANH
I mean, Han Solo did the same. I don’t think that Lucas thought that it would really be much more than the three movies, and evidently didn’t come up with much lore or backstory. I don’t think they ever touched on what happened to Darth Vader and Sidious that put them into power (it’s been a few years since I’ve seen them, could be wrong). Closest thing we got was a mention of the Clone Wars, with about no description of it.
Lucas didn’t even plan for Vader to be Luke’s father at the start. Leigh Brackett, the main scriptwriter for ESB, never even knew that (she died of cancer when the script was in the final stages). That’s why there’s this awkward “certain point of view” discussion with Obi-wan in RotJ to explain away the cave conversation in the first movie; Lucas didn’t plan that from the beginning, and he had to patch over a plot hole.
i’m not familiar enough with the source material to know what these conversations were offhand. little help? links to parts of the script or youtubes or whatevers?
In the original “Star Wars” (now known as “Star Wars: Episode IV- A New Hope”), Luke asks Obi-Wan how his father died. Obi-Wan tells him “A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered you father.”
In “Return of the Jedi”, (Episode VI) Luke sees a ‘Force Ghost’ of Obi-Wan. Luke asks him “Why didn’t you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father.” Obi-Wan responds “Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true- from a certain point of view.”
No problem :) I’m not exactly sure what they meant by “cave conversation” unless they mistook Obi-Wan’s hut for a cave.
I am admittedly biased and possibly influenced by nostalgia, but in my opinion the original Trilogy holds up quite well, and is actually the best trilogy. If you haven’t watched them before I highly recommend them, especially if you are interested in Star Wars.
excuse me the best trilogy is 5 > 3 > 8. Luke finds out who his father is, spends time learning about his father’s past, then becomes a hermit and dies of depression. it’s got arcs and everything
There’s very few Doyalist arguments in the replies here. Besides my own argument about how Lucas doesn’t plan things out, but that’s not exactly complimentary to the narrative.
Watsonian: there are very few Force users in the galaxy. At its height, the Jedi Order is a few million Jedi in a galaxy of trillions of sapient beings. Force users were always more legend than something people saw on the regular. If you ever saw one lightsaber in person, it’d be a day you remember forever. The propaganda job wasn’t even that hard. Just pretend they never existed and most people will go on with their lives.
Even as far as Motti is concerned, the Jedi were never that prominent. Just a sad old religion. He would have internalized Imperial policy against Jedi, and he only makes any exception at all for Darth Vader because people above him say he’s important.
That random force lady on Yavin that Andor met? Andor has a good reason to believe she’s a charlatan. Pretty much anyone you meet claiming to have force powers, even before Order 66, is probably a grifter.
Especially when he was clearly alive while that religion and its teachings were still actively being demonstrated to be true every day and its adherents were shaping the galaxy.
EDIT: ITT people defending their space wizard fairy tales with Doylian arguments.
Did he know the emperor was a Sith who had powers, or was he just one of billions or trillions of people who had never actually interacted with anyone who openly used the force?
Sure, later movies made force use way more commonly used within a couple decades of this guy’s bold choice, but at the time of the movie’s release it was supposed to be an uncommon thing that hadn’t even been around for a very long time.
How long was it though - maybe a couple of decades?
It’s more like inside of an authoritarian regime, propaganda is quite strong - e.g. China is the good guy and there are no questions (allowed) about that.
It was about 19 years at the start of A New Hope. So if they talked to literally one person that was over the age of 30, they’d probably know that Jedi were very real. Not common outside of active war zones and the Jedi Temple, but real. The galaxy was huge, with plenty of relatively untouched planets with sparse populations, that were relatively untouched by the Empire’s influence. There were also plenty of planets that had people, but were able to just dismiss them as nuisances most of the time (Koboh and Tatooine for example).
The propaganda thing was definitely real and a problem, but likely far more common in the Inner and Mid rims. Still, even on Coruscant, the capital world, as flooded with the Empire’s influence as a planet could be, people just had to leave the surface and go to a slightly lower level to escape their influence.
From what I’ve seen, a large portion of the population knew that the Empire was restrictive and bad, but they just didn’t feel like they could do anything about it (like real life). So, it still doesn’t make sense for anyone to not believe that the Jedi were real, and imo, makes Han and this guy (forgot his name) the equivalent of flat earthers. Again, made sense at the time, but certainly not now.
If he did not have personal experience with force users, or had not seen them successfully use their abilities, that explains how he would not see them as being demonstrated in the current running of the empire. What he would see is a lot of people pulling off massive industrial and military accomplishments being dismissed by Vader as less important than the force, which is generally subtle and difficult to see by non-force users.
He is being dismissive of the effectiveness of the force based on his personal experiences, not denying its existence.
Fair enough. I had a really long response but it got deleted, so I’ll just summarize. If he knew a single one of Vader’s accomplishments (rumors of them were definitely spread by the witnesses), he would’ve never believed that. Vader served the important purpose of striking fear into those that would oppose the Empire, keeping most of the galaxy in line. He probably served as an officer in the Republic as well, possibly alongside the Jedi. Even if he didn’t, he’s in a room full of people that did. It’s ridiculously stupid to insult your extremely violent boss, especially about something that he’s provably correct about.
Be fair to Han - he was in the underworld where people were probably trying to scam him every day. Scepticism is self-protection.
Fair point. Still, weird thing to be skeptical about considering the abundance of evidence, but slightly understandable.
Speaking of flat earthers, did people believe that the Force did not exist, or merely claim that? In this particular case it seems like bravado, showing off for Moff Tarkin (I forget if he was Grand Moff at this point).
Unfortunately, I have no idea what the backstory of the character is. Maybe he was trying to do that, maybe not. I don’t think that Tarkin would’ve been impressed by not believing in the force (he served with Anakin Skywalker and the Jedi during the Clone Wars), but maybe he didn’t realize that.
No way, TIL Moff was a rank
An excellent point - it’s not about what the lore says, but what it said at the time:-D.
Having the people (clones) carrying out the mass killing being close to them on a personal level and also absolutely brainwashed probably helped, too.
Yeah, probably!:-P
The Jedi had been around for over 25,000 years before A New Hope. There had to be volumes of evidence for Jedi powers by the time of that film.
https://screenrant.com/star-wars-jedi-order-origin-timeline-canon/
The guy in the meme and Han Solo were just Straw Atheists I’m afraid.
Edit: “For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic, before the dark times. Before the Empire.” -Obi Wan in ANH
So not a G, but just stupid.
Sometimes the |ine between G-ness and stupidity is very thin.
It’s a vibe
A G’s vibe is different than that of a square.
I mean, Han Solo did the same. I don’t think that Lucas thought that it would really be much more than the three movies, and evidently didn’t come up with much lore or backstory. I don’t think they ever touched on what happened to Darth Vader and Sidious that put them into power (it’s been a few years since I’ve seen them, could be wrong). Closest thing we got was a mention of the Clone Wars, with about no description of it.
Lucas didn’t even plan for Vader to be Luke’s father at the start. Leigh Brackett, the main scriptwriter for ESB, never even knew that (she died of cancer when the script was in the final stages). That’s why there’s this awkward “certain point of view” discussion with Obi-wan in RotJ to explain away the cave conversation in the first movie; Lucas didn’t plan that from the beginning, and he had to patch over a plot hole.
He very much made it up as he went.
i’m not familiar enough with the source material to know what these conversations were offhand. little help? links to parts of the script or youtubes or whatevers?
In the original “Star Wars” (now known as “Star Wars: Episode IV- A New Hope”), Luke asks Obi-Wan how his father died. Obi-Wan tells him “A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered you father.”
In “Return of the Jedi”, (Episode VI) Luke sees a ‘Force Ghost’ of Obi-Wan. Luke asks him “Why didn’t you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father.” Obi-Wan responds “Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true- from a certain point of view.”
thanks. i was trying to figure out what the cave conversation was, like “luke! look out for that wampa”
No problem :) I’m not exactly sure what they meant by “cave conversation” unless they mistook Obi-Wan’s hut for a cave.
I am admittedly biased and possibly influenced by nostalgia, but in my opinion the original Trilogy holds up quite well, and is actually the best trilogy. If you haven’t watched them before I highly recommend them, especially if you are interested in Star Wars.
excuse me the best trilogy is 5 > 3 > 8. Luke finds out who his father is, spends time learning about his father’s past, then becomes a hermit and dies of depression. it’s got arcs and everything
Exactly. We have to ignore a couple lines that don’t make much sense, but that’s not a big obstacle to enjoying the stories.
There’s very few Doyalist arguments in the replies here. Besides my own argument about how Lucas doesn’t plan things out, but that’s not exactly complimentary to the narrative.
Watsonian: there are very few Force users in the galaxy. At its height, the Jedi Order is a few million Jedi in a galaxy of trillions of sapient beings. Force users were always more legend than something people saw on the regular. If you ever saw one lightsaber in person, it’d be a day you remember forever. The propaganda job wasn’t even that hard. Just pretend they never existed and most people will go on with their lives.
Even as far as Motti is concerned, the Jedi were never that prominent. Just a sad old religion. He would have internalized Imperial policy against Jedi, and he only makes any exception at all for Darth Vader because people above him say he’s important.
That random force lady on Yavin that Andor met? Andor has a good reason to believe she’s a charlatan. Pretty much anyone you meet claiming to have force powers, even before Order 66, is probably a grifter.
I understand that it was to show us Vader’s behaviour, but I agree that in hindsight he looks very stupid, or at least born yesterday.