I forgot that community existed. Segregation gives me the ick to such an extent I blocked it. I think it’s the only non-german-language community I’ve blocked.
A publicly visible forum isn’t a safe space. I can go to a discord channel for that. I would never think to tell someone to shut up because of physical characteristics. That’s precisely how social poisons like transphobia propagate. Could Elliot Page post there? What about Hunter Schafer? What about enbys? Jack Haven? Do we demand genital inspections like MAGA gestapo? Would you exclude my partner for failing to pass some feminine-enough test?
Segregation of public and publicly visible places is fundamentally and ethically wrong. I will help build the louisettes to dismantle the patriarchy, but I won’t exclude people even their “type” has traditionally held a position of privilege. It’s not right and it makes us the baddies the misogynistic claim we are.
My point is, I don’t like anything about this. ESH. I don’t support or endorse any of this, from the community to the alleged interlopers. It’s all wrong.
The community you’re complaining about actually allows trans and nonbinary people. I believe you can acknowledge the value of single-gender+enby spaces while being critical of single-sex spaces without being a TERF.
Right now women make up 2.5% of the overall Lemmy userbase. They’re more likely to be downvoted and dogpiled by the remaining 97.5% of Lemmy in coed spaces. If we want Lemmy to grow and be open for everyone, for now we need women-only communities so we can create positive associations with the platform where we can express our opinions freely without worry about being brigaded. If womens’ spaces on Lemmy were open to men, it would be majority men commenting on all of those posts, and our voices would get drowned out. Most or all of us would get fed up and leave. The thing is, if you don’t allow protections for women, you still end up with segregation.
So there’s an important crossroads that we need to decide. Do we allow X-exclusive communities in the hopes of building up Lemmy and the Fediverse? Or do we defederate instances with communities that support minority communities, and accept the inevitability that Lemmy will continue to be a male-only space for good?
Maybe the exclusivity can be eased when the gender gap gets closed more. I know it feels unfair on the surface. For now I’ll say if c/menslib’s moderators decided the community would be men-only, I’d support that.
Thank you, I didn’t realize that. My only experience was stumbling into a post some time ago and seeing someone asking a question being told to shut up because they started the question with “As a man…”. Seeing that was genuinely triggering for me.
While knowing it’s trans inclusive does make me feel better, this still reminds me of the ally debate we had in the queer community 20-30 years ago. Queer spaces should be welcoming to allies but allies must be aware that there are certain expectations for them. There is still zero tolerance for anyone that steps out of line. I think that has worked very well and won us a lot of progress and unity and support and love and acceptance, which is what I want.
I’m always torn about these things. I love the idea of having women-centric spaces where we can be ourselves without masking. I want that. But I can’t resolve the ethics of excluding allies, and so it’s not something I can personally justify being involved with. I don’t want people to be treated like that or excluded because of their sex or gender. I’ve lived through that and it’s awful.
That’s interesting, and I do think the ally-welcoming queer spaces are a good idea too. My thought after reading this goes like this: Can spaces that are welcoming to allies coexist with spaces where only people within a group are allowed to contribute? Like, is it an all or nothing thing?
This is key because there are other spaces on lemmy (witchesvspatriarchy) that are both women-centric and open to allies. So Lemmy has both. But c/witchesvspatriarchy is constantly brigaded by male Lemmy users who get defensive. Often the top upvoted comments will be defensive ones from men, and many posts get derailed from their original topics. It can feel really discouraging. So guys on Lemmy regularly can and do step out of line, and Lemmy’s ecosystem rewards them for it because there’s more of them than us.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad witchesvspatriarchy exists. It’s healthy for ally-friendly women-centric spaces to exist. But I’m also glad there’s a community where I don’t have to deal with the constant derailing. And due to the specific circumstances of this platform, it feels like not allowing comments from men is the only to achieve that. At the end of the day, I’m glad that both exist. And I feel like if women-only spaces were taken away from Lemmy, I would just leave.
Edit: There’s another component to this as well, the idea you expressed that you felt excluded either because of your gender or because you’re an ally, and you don’t want anyone to feel like that. I don’t want to presume about your life or identity, but I’m a trans woman and I lived through being excluded because people thought I was a man. It was really awful, honestly. When I was in the closet, I would present as a woman on the internet because it was the one place I didn’t have to reveal my appearance. It was the only time for the entirety of my childhood and adolescence that I felt seen. I guess what I’m saying is that closet trans people aren’t the people being excluded from single-gender spaces on the internet – I certainly wasn’t. I don’t think a “no men” policy in internet forums affected me at all.
I don’t think my experience can or should be directly compared with those of male allies. There are some women-centered spaces where women will gladly welcome mens’ input, but in others, we’re asking for men to respect our right to gather independently, and I don’t think that’s unreasonable to ask. And it’s a boundary men have the right to ask of women too.
I’m not sure the specific name of it. Something like “women only” but I’m not finding it in search. I browse lemmy by all, so it comes up every now and then for me.
I forgot that community existed. Segregation gives me the ick to such an extent I blocked it. I think it’s the only non-german-language community I’ve blocked.
A publicly visible forum isn’t a safe space. I can go to a discord channel for that. I would never think to tell someone to shut up because of physical characteristics. That’s precisely how social poisons like transphobia propagate. Could Elliot Page post there? What about Hunter Schafer? What about enbys? Jack Haven? Do we demand genital inspections like MAGA gestapo? Would you exclude my partner for failing to pass some feminine-enough test?
Segregation of public and publicly visible places is fundamentally and ethically wrong. I will help build the louisettes to dismantle the patriarchy, but I won’t exclude people even their “type” has traditionally held a position of privilege. It’s not right and it makes us the baddies the misogynistic claim we are.
My point is, I don’t like anything about this. ESH. I don’t support or endorse any of this, from the community to the alleged interlopers. It’s all wrong.
The community you’re complaining about actually allows trans and nonbinary people. I believe you can acknowledge the value of single-gender+enby spaces while being critical of single-sex spaces without being a TERF.
Right now women make up 2.5% of the overall Lemmy userbase. They’re more likely to be downvoted and dogpiled by the remaining 97.5% of Lemmy in coed spaces. If we want Lemmy to grow and be open for everyone, for now we need women-only communities so we can create positive associations with the platform where we can express our opinions freely without worry about being brigaded. If womens’ spaces on Lemmy were open to men, it would be majority men commenting on all of those posts, and our voices would get drowned out. Most or all of us would get fed up and leave. The thing is, if you don’t allow protections for women, you still end up with segregation.
So there’s an important crossroads that we need to decide. Do we allow X-exclusive communities in the hopes of building up Lemmy and the Fediverse? Or do we defederate instances with communities that support minority communities, and accept the inevitability that Lemmy will continue to be a male-only space for good?
Maybe the exclusivity can be eased when the gender gap gets closed more. I know it feels unfair on the surface. For now I’ll say if c/menslib’s moderators decided the community would be men-only, I’d support that.
Thank you, I didn’t realize that. My only experience was stumbling into a post some time ago and seeing someone asking a question being told to shut up because they started the question with “As a man…”. Seeing that was genuinely triggering for me.
While knowing it’s trans inclusive does make me feel better, this still reminds me of the ally debate we had in the queer community 20-30 years ago. Queer spaces should be welcoming to allies but allies must be aware that there are certain expectations for them. There is still zero tolerance for anyone that steps out of line. I think that has worked very well and won us a lot of progress and unity and support and love and acceptance, which is what I want.
I’m always torn about these things. I love the idea of having women-centric spaces where we can be ourselves without masking. I want that. But I can’t resolve the ethics of excluding allies, and so it’s not something I can personally justify being involved with. I don’t want people to be treated like that or excluded because of their sex or gender. I’ve lived through that and it’s awful.
That’s interesting, and I do think the ally-welcoming queer spaces are a good idea too. My thought after reading this goes like this: Can spaces that are welcoming to allies coexist with spaces where only people within a group are allowed to contribute? Like, is it an all or nothing thing?
This is key because there are other spaces on lemmy (witchesvspatriarchy) that are both women-centric and open to allies. So Lemmy has both. But c/witchesvspatriarchy is constantly brigaded by male Lemmy users who get defensive. Often the top upvoted comments will be defensive ones from men, and many posts get derailed from their original topics. It can feel really discouraging. So guys on Lemmy regularly can and do step out of line, and Lemmy’s ecosystem rewards them for it because there’s more of them than us.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad witchesvspatriarchy exists. It’s healthy for ally-friendly women-centric spaces to exist. But I’m also glad there’s a community where I don’t have to deal with the constant derailing. And due to the specific circumstances of this platform, it feels like not allowing comments from men is the only to achieve that. At the end of the day, I’m glad that both exist. And I feel like if women-only spaces were taken away from Lemmy, I would just leave.
Edit: There’s another component to this as well, the idea you expressed that you felt excluded either because of your gender or because you’re an ally, and you don’t want anyone to feel like that. I don’t want to presume about your life or identity, but I’m a trans woman and I lived through being excluded because people thought I was a man. It was really awful, honestly. When I was in the closet, I would present as a woman on the internet because it was the one place I didn’t have to reveal my appearance. It was the only time for the entirety of my childhood and adolescence that I felt seen. I guess what I’m saying is that closet trans people aren’t the people being excluded from single-gender spaces on the internet – I certainly wasn’t. I don’t think a “no men” policy in internet forums affected me at all.
I don’t think my experience can or should be directly compared with those of male allies. There are some women-centered spaces where women will gladly welcome mens’ input, but in others, we’re asking for men to respect our right to gather independently, and I don’t think that’s unreasonable to ask. And it’s a boundary men have the right to ask of women too.
If only they had it explicitly laid out who is allowed to comment.
…oh wait, they do. So your “transphobia” strawman is entirely baseless.
We are fully allowed to read it, just don’t post. Reading it is very insightful.
What community is that?
I’m not sure the specific name of it. Something like “women only” but I’m not finding it in search. I browse lemmy by all, so it comes up every now and then for me.